Dealer does Title Check AFTER trade in... - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK General Discussion Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 05-23-2012, 01:19 PM   #1
Jeeper
 
Lynskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 795
Dealer does Title Check AFTER trade in...

A question about trade-ins and dealer responsibilities…

Last year my good friend got into an accident with her JKU and the front driver’s side got whacked (not her fault). Other driver's insurance replaced everything on the JKU using OEM parts. Work done at the Jeep dealer and everything was replaced per manufacturer’s specs. Then she decided to trade it in for a new 2012 JK last week. She brings in the JKU to the same dealer, the dealer looks at it, makes a trade-in offer and she agrees to it. Last week she drives in the JKU, signs and drives away in the new JK.

Then today she gets a call from the dealer that the title came back as “structural damage” and they won’t be able to now sell the vehicle. They tell her that because of this, they gave her the wrong price on the trade in.


So couple questions:
  1. Is she liable for any of this?
  2. Does the dealer have any legal standing to do anything? They did the repair work so they should have pulled up the records at the time?
Obviously they did not perform the title check before making the trade-in offer. But now that everything is done and signed can the dealer do anything? Tough issue. They never asked her about any accidents.


IMO the dealer did not perform their due diligence to find out about the vehicle. When I traded my Escape in, I waited 2 days for the dealer to get everything they needed for the trade in – including title search.

I know a couple of you guys are familiar with the law (lawyers) so how would/should this situation play out?

__________________
2012 Dozer JK Sahara
Lynskey is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #2
JP4
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 49
Legally the dealer is S.O.L.

JP4 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:28 PM   #3
ESP
Jeeper
 
ESP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 11,495
Anything in original signed paperwork at the time she got the 12 stating "conditional upon receiving title info and or background check"? If not then nope.
__________________
98 XJ 02 TJ 10 JK 13 JK

2013 JK - Lifted w/ 35s - Bilstein 5100s - Monster TB - Chopped Flares - Can't Keep It Clean
ESP is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:30 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
oliver_jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Monticello, IN
Posts: 344
I know when I have traded in before the paperwork stated they will have to run a title check to see any previous damage. But they told me this up front so I guess like ESP says it depends if she signed any papers saying they still have to run a check...
oliver_jeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:47 PM   #5
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
N39-W120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Eastern VA
Posts: 2,020
Send a message via AIM to N39-W120 Send a message via Skype™ to N39-W120
My past experience with trade in has been:
Dealer: "Has your trade in been in any accidents, or has had any body repair?"

If they didn't ask that question, dealer screwed
If the dealer asked and your friend wasn't truthful she could be screwed (last car I bought the whole thing was recorded)

The other thing (Virginia point of view) I believe the title is clear or will be listed as "salvage" If the dealer put together a "totaled" Jeep and gave it back to her, not telling her, they are REALLY screwed.
__________________
Daily Driver 2010 Ford Fusion
Weekend Toy: 2008 Rubicon...
Expensive Toy: 1983 Cadillac Coupe DeVille

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!
N39-W120 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #6
Sponsoring Vendor
 
pat@fieldsauto.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Glenview
Posts: 3,182
Most dealers have a form that all customers with trade ins sign called a motor vehicle trade in disclosure.

"I guarantee to the dealer that all info regarding my trade in is true and correct. I hereby sell and transfer my trade in to Dealer. I have good clear title and full right and authority to sell the trade in. "

Obviously there is the payoff part of this that doesn't really matter here, but then there is something like this

"I warrant that the title to my trade in is not and should not be a salvage or rebuilt title. I realize that dealer is relying on my representation that there is no frame damage in its decision to to accept the trade in and in its placing a value on my trade. If, after the trade in dealer finds frame damage to said vehicle, then in that event, dealer may elect in its sole discretion, reimbursement for the price paid for my trade, including any costs and expenses paid or incurred by dealer or reimbursement for the cost of repair of said vehicle and any other costs incurred. The trade in has never been in an accident and has never incurred damage as a result of an accident, except as I have disclosed in writing to the dealer."


I post this stuff so all of you will have an idea of what forms you might have to sign and the wording. The more info you have going into a transaction the better.
__________________
Patrick O'Donnell(Pat@Fieldsauto.com)
Fields Chrysler Jeep Dodge │ 2800 Patriot Blvd│ Glenview, IL 60026
847-446-5100 main│ 847-881-8313 direct
pat@fieldsauto.comFieldsChryslerJeepDodge.com
Have Questions About A New Jeep Purchase? CLICK HERE
pat@fieldsauto.com is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:50 PM   #7
Jeeper
 
BigGreenMachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Englewood, CO
Posts: 906
What do you have?
BigGreenMachine is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #8
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 437
This is a classic dealer scam where they try to get additional money on a later date. They had the opportunity to do an inspection beforehand and they made the deal. As long as she didn't lie about anything, she should be OK.

Each State has different laws, but a deal is a deal and just as she has a duty to inspect for prior repairs (unless represented otherwise) they do as well.

Look at it this way - if it was a salvage title, it wouldn't have been repaired and then returned to her unless she "bought it back" from the insurance company after it was totaled.

This seriously sounds like the dealer is simply tying to get more money out of her.
__________________
Past Jeeps: 71 CJ5 (225V6) | 01 Wrangler Sport | 04 Wrangler Sport
Current:12 Crush Rubi 4dr | 6spd | heated leather Katzskins w/orange accents | Garmin 430
Highway eater: 2006 V70R | Quick car: 2008 Lotus Exige S
JandS is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:08 PM   #9
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 20
See a Attorney to be sure.
Avera7268 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:14 PM   #10
Jeeper
 
Gkrynick22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Marlborough, CT
Posts: 58
Not a scam at all. Structural, Frame damage, and mileage discrepancy issues must be disclosed by the customer and dealer. If the title is branded "rebuilt" or "salvage" then your friend is out of luck. Dealers are protected, just as the customer is from buying/taking in trade salvaged vehicles. That being said if the title is NOT branded "salvage" or "reconstructed", then its their problem.
Gkrynick22 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:17 PM   #11
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 200
All depends on what she signed. Most likely she signed something saying it was a clean title, which means she was in the wrong here, but if not then she should be good to go. First thing would be to check everything that was signed.
glap1922 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:21 PM   #12
Jeeper
 
Hieneken49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Michiganistan
Posts: 250
Images: 3
it takes 2 seconds to run a carfax, part of the used car appraisal. technically the dealer should eat the loss.
__________________
2012 Rubicon Unlimited 6 Speed
JCR Crusader & Quadratec 9500i
Ace Pro Series Rear
2.5 AEV Lift, Riddler Diff Armor
315 Goodyear Duratracs.
Hieneken49 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:38 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
C.L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North NJ
Posts: 2,027
The only way i can see the dealership "now won't be able to sell" the trade-in is if it has a salvage title. It shouldn't have been possible for her to get salvage titled and then drive away after that accident without alot of red tape and insurance involvement. If the dealership is referring to their obligation to "sell it for less than they thought due to an accident on the car fax", then it boils down to two situations.

Did they ask her during the negotiations, or have her sign documentation stating that her trade-in was undamaged?

Yes - She is responsible for the difference.
No - Dealership messed up and is trying to recoup losses.
C.L. is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:47 PM   #14
Jeeper
 
carguyco's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 374
Not a dealer scam at all..
Pat beat me to it....she surely signed a form just as he posted...everyone here signs this form as well.
Because of this form...the dealer does have some legal recourse.
__________________
2013 JKU Rubicon TRUE BLUE 6 Speed
3.5" AEV SC lift....315/70/17 ProComp Xtreme Mud Terrain Tires....Black Savegre Wheels
carguyco is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #15
Jeeper
 
Lynskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 795
This is why I love this forum. Seriously. Great info from folks who know their stuff. I'm a Biochemist and fairly smart, but legal stuff I freely admit I know knothing about.

I'll check in and see how she is making out and forward on the good information. And the title was "structural damage" so it was not salvaged. They replaced the whole underside of the front drivers side - but there was no frame damage.
__________________
2012 Dozer JK Sahara
Lynskey is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 03:06 PM   #16
MTH
Jeeper
 
MTH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,553
Like most are suggesting, my instinct is that she needs to read the documents to see what exactly she represented to the dealer.

If she guaranteed the dealer that no damage had been incurred or that it had never been in an accident, then she might have some issues here.

And while you can argue that the dealer should have known, should have checked, should have done this or that, those issues really go to whether she can be excused for failing to disclose, not whether she disclosed properly to begin with.

And whether she disclosed properly to begin with is what the dealer would focus on in a small claims court or other civil action.

She might have a good defense based on what the dealer should have known etc., and there could perhaps be some consumer protection laws that limit what representations a customer can make to a dealer or otherwise protect her, but she'll need a court to tell her whether any of that is a "winner." The dealer meanwhile will have her "lie" in black and white right on the face of her trade-in agreement.
__________________
Mike
2010 JKU "Mountain" Edition
TeraFlex 2.5" Coil Lift : Old Man Emu Nitrocharger Shocks : 33x12.5R15 Goodyear DuraTracs : 15x8 Black Rock 909s : Other Stuff . . .
MTH is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 03:14 PM   #17
The Bad Guy

WF Supporting Member
 
daggo66's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NJ exile living in Baltimore
Posts: 22,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynskey View Post
This is why I love this forum. Seriously. Great info from folks who know their stuff. I'm a Biochemist and fairly smart, but legal stuff I freely admit I know knothing about.

I'll check in and see how she is making out and forward on the good information. And the title was "structural damage" so it was not salvaged. They replaced the whole underside of the front drivers side - but there was no frame damage.
I've never heard of a "structural damage" title. I think you are confusing the title with the Carfax report. The trade would happen one of two ways. If the vehicle was owned outright, you would sign the title and hand it to the dealer. If it was financed the dealer would pay off the loan amount and receive the title. I highly doubt any finance company would use a vehicle with a salvage title as collateral. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

As mentioned have your friend check the paperwork she signed. All the information being passed here is third hand and speculation since it's not coming directly from the parties involved.
__________________
Tom

"I've got two things in this world, my balls and my word and I don't break them for no one."
daggo66 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 03:24 PM   #18
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 79
I would look at the Terms and Conditions . If it does not specify compensation after the transaction then she is in the clear. The fact the dealer fixed the vehicle only is icing on the cake. If I were to not check a carfax I would certainly be SOL
Fas550 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 03:35 PM   #19
Jeeper
 
Lynskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 795
Not sure. She said the dealer specifically said the title was listed as structural damage - but it could be the CarFax or some other report. You know how third-hand knowledge gets relayed...

She looked through all her paperwork. Not one mention of "dependant upon clear title, etc" verbiage that she could find. Time will tell.

Funny thing is a couple weeks ago she brought back the JKU as there was some "bumping" happening in the front end. The dealer said that something needing replacement - on parts that specific dealer put on 7 months ago from the accident. (Not sure exactly what parts). She said to them "the parts are OEM, brand new, installed by you guys and there should be some guarantee on them!" They said nope. Not part of the guarantee. They said replacing the parts would be $1,100.

So 2 weeks later in a ballsey move she trades in that vehicle to the same dealer that missed the title/carfax check. Maybe they finally realized that it was the same person...
__________________
2012 Dozer JK Sahara
Lynskey is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 03:43 PM   #20
kik
Jeeper
 
kik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,709
Images: 1
Take a look at her paperwork and see what she signed. I doubt that any new or used car dealer would not have a disclaimer regarding collision damage. If she just signed it for example and didn't give it any thought because everything was handled by the same dealer, which could definately happen, then there would most likely have to be a compromise on price. I believe that if a vehicle was involved in a collision regardless of fault, and repaired with all oem parts, all things being equal it's worth less than one that has not been in a wreck. How much less is always negotiable. The dealer would have to disclose that to the new owner or wholesaler. I and alot of others wouldn't pay the same price for a vehicle that was damaged compared to one that wasn't. It really only doesn't matter with classic/antique vehicle restorations. I also never heard of a "structural title" but each state is different. Like what was said, you have to see what she signed. Unfortunately, there should be no surprise that her JK would be worth less even though she wasn't at fault. No one should be penalized for it, especially since it was most likely repaired as close to original condition as possible, but that's the way it is.
kik is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 03:46 PM   #21
Sponsoring Vendor
 
pat@fieldsauto.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Glenview
Posts: 3,182
1 thing here

1. Structural damage is considered frame damage by Manheim auto auction so the dealer has to auction the vehicle as a structural damaged vehicle. The dealer does have to disclose it.
__________________
Patrick O'Donnell(Pat@Fieldsauto.com)
Fields Chrysler Jeep Dodge │ 2800 Patriot Blvd│ Glenview, IL 60026
847-446-5100 main│ 847-881-8313 direct
pat@fieldsauto.comFieldsChryslerJeepDodge.com
Have Questions About A New Jeep Purchase? CLICK HERE
pat@fieldsauto.com is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 05:14 PM   #22
Jeeper
 
JKU12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 59
I went through a similar issue with my trade in and had to involve my attorney to get them to leave me alone. The dealers ultimate goal is to get you in the car and send you home. You are much more likely to just keep the car and pay the difference than return it.

The real question is did they know about the damage and decide to deal with it later knowing you would likely give in. I find it hard to believe they evaluated your trade in and didn't take 60 seconds to pull the CarFax.
JKU12 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-23-2012, 05:23 PM   #23
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat@fieldsauto.com View Post
1 thing here

1. Structural damage is considered frame damage by Manheim auto auction so the dealer has to auction the vehicle as a structural damaged vehicle. The dealer does have to disclose it.
So the dealer ran the car fax, saw the car had a clean title, agreed to trade for it, and now that they can't auction it, they want the customer to pay for their mistake?
__________________
Past Jeeps: 71 CJ5 (225V6) | 01 Wrangler Sport | 04 Wrangler Sport
Current:12 Crush Rubi 4dr | 6spd | heated leather Katzskins w/orange accents | Garmin 430
Highway eater: 2006 V70R | Quick car: 2008 Lotus Exige S
JandS is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 07:17 AM   #24
Jeeper
 
Lynskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 795
Again I don't have all the details on her situation. But I would also have thought that they would have ran some check on the vehicle first. According to her they looked at it in the parking lot - no test ride or further inquiry - and made the trade-in offer. Then almost a week later they do a full check and realize the vehicle was in an accident and repaired.
__________________
2012 Dozer JK Sahara
Lynskey is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 08:29 AM   #25
Jeeper
 
POUNDTWN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Plattsburgh NY
Posts: 77
I work at a Dodge,Chrysler, Jeep Dealer in upstate NY. I will tell you that legally the dealership can't do anything. Unless you signed an odometer and damage disclosure statement, that states that the vehicles mileage was accurate and that the vehicle had never been wrecked or totaled. Check your paperwork and see if your signed anything that looks like this.
If the damage was to an extent of the sum of or more than 75% of the total retail value of the vehicle YOU are at fault. If you never signed anything like this or the damage wasn't that extensive. Then the DEALER is at fault.
POUNDTWN11 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 09:47 AM   #26
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by POUNDTWN11 View Post
I work at a Dodge,Chrysler, Jeep Dealer in upstate NY. I will tell you that legally the dealership can't do anything. Unless you signed an odometer and damage disclosure statement, that states that the vehicles mileage was accurate and that the vehicle had never been wrecked or totaled. Check your paperwork and see if your signed anything that looks like this.
If the damage was to an extent of the sum of or more than 75% of the total retail value of the vehicle YOU are at fault. If you never signed anything like this or the damage wasn't that extensive. Then the DEALER is at fault.
This. Game over for the dealer and yes, this is one of the scams in a dealers arsenal. They had a chance to inspect the car. Also, as others have said, how did she not hear about this from her insurance company? Or even the dealer when they fixed it. A structural damage title? Bullshit. The insurance company would have definitely told her about it and maybe even totaled it out if it couldnt be resold.

They might have had her sign something about this but if they didn't they are screwed and just trying to scare her. Get a lawyer and you'll never hear from them again. Oh, and be sure to warn everyone of this scumbag establishment because let's face it, even if she signed something, they had a chance to check it out but didn't bother. I don't like lazy businesses and they shouldn't be rewarded for being lazy.
Posts On Percocet is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 09:48 AM   #27
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynskey View Post
Again I don't have all the details on her situation. But I would also have thought that they would have ran some check on the vehicle first. According to her they looked at it in the parking lot - no test ride or further inquiry - and made the trade-in offer. Then almost a week later they do a full check and realize the vehicle was in an accident and repaired.
Just get a lawyer and she won't have to worry about it anymore. This stealership isn't in NY state, is it?
Posts On Percocet is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 10:12 AM   #28
Jeeper
 
Lynskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 795
Insurance company knew about the damaged JKU. It went into the dealer and it took weeks to get it fixed. That was something like 7 months ago.

Then about 2 months ago a solenoid in the tranny went and it would not shift past 2nd gear. Brought it in and they replaced it to the tune of $600+. Then she started hearing a bump/thump or something up front and went to the dealer to inquire on it. The same dealer that did all of the insurance work.

That's when they said that it would be $1,100 to fix whatever was wrong - only 7 months after the entire front end was fixed. She said nope and a week later traded it in. Now present day is the current issue.

I told her to look at the odometer document and she said they didn't even complete it? Again I'm 2nd hand to the deal so just relaying what she is telling me.

And this is not in NY.
__________________
2012 Dozer JK Sahara
Lynskey is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 10:20 AM   #29
MTH
Jeeper
 
MTH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,553
I think enough info has been provided at this point for her next step.

She needs to look over her paperwork and see what, if anything, she represented to the dealer in writing regarding the condition of the vehicle.

If nothing seems to apply, then she can tell the dealer she believes it's their problem and if they believe something else they're going to need to point her to a specific provision in the paperwork or the law supporting that.

If something does appear to apply and the dealer seems serious, it's probably time to consult with a lawyer.
__________________
Mike
2010 JKU "Mountain" Edition
TeraFlex 2.5" Coil Lift : Old Man Emu Nitrocharger Shocks : 33x12.5R15 Goodyear DuraTracs : 15x8 Black Rock 909s : Other Stuff . . .
MTH is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-24-2012, 12:31 PM   #30
Jeeper
 
dprimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 215
I have found that sometimes the quickest solution to one of these we need more money down issues is to drive the new car back over and say OK where is my car you can have this one back. More times then not your trade is already gone and they are SOL at that point.

They are unlilkely to take the new car back even if her trade is still there because it has already been titled to her it is now considered used and they can no longer sell it as new.

dprimm is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:44 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC