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Old 06-23-2007, 09:53 AM   #1
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Thumbs up Do we need this technology?

I have a couple comments as a newbie. I currently have a 01 totally original (unmolested) sport. It does not have the 44's. Otherwise it has been great. It has seen almost no offroad use. However, my situation has changed. I plan to start using it on my ranch including pulling a rotowiper in a swampy area to kill weeds. The rotowiper is about 12' wide and weighs about 400 lbs. therefore the load is minimal. I was thinking about a used rubicon mainly for the axles. Until today I was even considering a new rubicon. On the JK forum it talks about everything being computerized. While electronics can certainly do wonderfull things I have to ask myself do I really need all of that wonderfull stuff. Being held hostage by the dealer and raped at their choosing after the warranty is out would be no fun!
Scotty had a saying "THE MORE THEY OVERTAKE THE SEWER THE EASIER IT IS TO CLOG THE DRAIN" Jeep can keep their electronic crap, look in consumers report at the poor reliability of Mercedes products due to their failed wizardry. I think I will keep my 01 sport or possibly look for a pristine older and proven technology rubicon. I am not convinced I need the 44"s.
Remember KISS keep it simple....
Your comments and advice is appreciated.
Great forum

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Old 06-23-2007, 10:13 AM   #2
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I agree totally. One of the main reason I got a jeep was the fact they are simple to work on and didn't have all that fancy stuff. That's just more stuff to go wrong in my book.

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Old 06-23-2007, 11:52 AM   #3
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The very reasons I went square with the YJ. The TJ adds more electronics and plastics. The JK is just over the top. Should be fun to watch the boards as a few of them begin to see a trail or two.
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Old 06-23-2007, 11:59 AM   #4
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your dana 30/35 should be fine for what you are doing.
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Old 06-23-2007, 04:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legdoc View Post
...While electronics can certainly do wonderfull things I have to ask myself do I really need all of that wonderfull stuff. Being held hostage by the dealer and raped at their choosing after the warranty is out would be no fun!
Scotty had a saying "THE MORE THEY OVERTAKE THE SEWER THE EASIER IT IS TO CLOG THE DRAIN" Jeep can keep their electronic crap, look in consumers report at the poor reliability of Mercedes products due to their failed wizardry. I think I will keep my 01 sport or possibly look for a pristine older and proven technology rubicon. I am not convinced I need the 44"s.
Remember KISS keep it simple....
Ok, I had this whole long response typed out, that had a bunch of points in it, that were very eloquent and such, but I've been drinking a bit today and I hit back by mistake and totally lost it. Couldn't get it back. So here is the super short version, as I am a dumb a$$.


1. Your axles = ok for that.
2. i like simple too.
3. but, that new technology like ESP has reduced single vehicle accidents by 40%. (insert me being a salesman joke.)
4. People just don't keep their cars as long anymore, so it being out of warranty isn't really a problem for most people.(Except us, which usually keep them for life, or like 20 years, whichever comes first.)

Trust me this was much better earlier.
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:25 PM   #6
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kinda going on what binaryking has said. I have my 05 TJ right now as my DD. I don't want to put huge tires on it and such for now because I need to keep it good for the road. however, I have every intention when I'm a little older (still in grad school right now) and have a real job making real money to put my TJ "away" as my DD, get another vehicle (4 door maybe) as my drive around vehicle that does have all the bells and whistles and electronics, and keep my "simpler" TJ to "fix up" i.e. lift/axel/tires/etc. for a fun trail rig. if I bash it up now, I'm stuck without a vehicle to drive around, if I bash it up later, well, I just gotta get it home... at least that's the hope. (although it'd be fun to get an old willys jeep or old CJ though).
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:43 PM   #7
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As a JK owner I would also agree. The simpler the better. With my JK im using it for a DD. I am building it up somewhat for offroad use but not going too crazy. For that I am still waiting to hear back from an old family friend about a CJ that I hope I will be purchasing really soon (in all honesty I expected to have it by now). But whatever you decide good luck.
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:33 PM   #8
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Hey, if I had the money I'd definitely go for a JK........(here's the big but) BUT, after purchasing my TJ I was completely blown away at how much work that I could do myself.
I've owned 5 different trucks and 3 different cars since 1992. I could not afford to modify my trucks because with the dawn if IFS systems lift kit prices went through the roof and the computers made performance mods go the same direction. Before my 92 ford I had a 1984 4WD Toyota LWB pick-up, that was the last vehicle I modded. My wife didn't want her cars modded because they were family cars.
So, the simplicity of the TJ works for me now & its actually cheap work on by comparison. By the time I might want to buy a JK all of the issues will be ironed out and posted on this forum.

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Old 06-23-2007, 11:38 PM   #9
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I sort of agree with the O.P. about technology however on the other hand...advancement is what made you older engines bulletproof. Without the technology we would still be riding horses and not having this on-line discussion I know sort of out there with those analogies.

My issue with technology is this...it is "suppose" to make your life simple and give you more tiime to do things you want to do. So I ask do you have more free time now or 10-15 years ago? Me it was 10-15 years ago.
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Old 06-24-2007, 08:39 AM   #10
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i have owned both, and im just wondering how much more electronics does the jk really have over the tj. i dont see much more, as far as everyday driving i like my jk alot more. but to me it still everything i want a jeep to be, just better.
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Old 06-24-2007, 10:09 AM   #11
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I think it's interesting to read about how all this new tech works on the jk but it makes it alot harder to work on this jeep. One thing that I would of liked to see jeep do was to still offer the 4.0 I6. yes it may be old and not good for mpg or emmisions but I think It will out last the v6 that they took from a mini van and stuck it in a jeep.
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Old 06-24-2007, 01:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4.0l sahara View Post
I think it's interesting to read about how all this new tech works on the jk but it makes it alot harder to work on this jeep. One thing that I would of liked to see jeep do was to still offer the 4.0 I6. yes it may be old and not good for mpg or emmisions but I think It will out last the v6 that they took from a mini van and stuck it in a jeep.
What makes you think a 4.0 will outlast the 3.8?? The 3.8 is a very tried and proven engine. The bottom end has been around since 96, and in 98 they did some gasket revisions and head flow redesigns. There are many 3.8's out there with well over 150K (conservative) on them. From a tech standpoint, they are easier to work on than a 4.0, have a better oiling system, and more main bearing support. So as long as they dont get overheated, they should live well into 150K. I know, there are 4.0's out there that have over 300k on them, but lets be realistic here, they are few and far in-between. The mini van reference is even better to brag about when you can tell your 4.0 Havin buddy about your 19+ mpg and then ask him if was wide open when you guys left that light, 'cause your "mini-van" engine just SMOKED his 4.0


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Old 06-24-2007, 03:14 PM   #13
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technology is just evolution of vehicles, it does make life easier when it works correctly. a fuel injected engine is alot easier to tune the a carberated and points engine you just need the correct tools and the knowledge to use them. my freightliner has 4 computers on it enough wires to go across delaware and its good for a million miles. the 4.0 is an old amc engine but the keyword is old.
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Old 06-24-2007, 03:41 PM   #14
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I'm not saying the 3.8 is bad I just like the 4.0 better.
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Old 06-24-2007, 08:39 PM   #15
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Didn't 4.0 have more torque on the low end?

I had a 1995 Cherokee with the 4.0. Ran great. My Wife was in 2 accidents and the most damage was a bent rear bumper. Totaled the Honda that hit her. Anyway I never had a problem with the 4.0 up till 80,000 when I gave it to my Daughter. I think she didn't maintain it like I did and she sold it with 140,000 plus on it. She could have fixed it up but it would have probably cost her more than the vehicles worth.

BTW the 3.8 and the 4.0 sound the same when accelerating from a stop...well to me they do.
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Old 06-24-2007, 08:59 PM   #16
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Didn't 4.0 have more torque on the low end?

BTW the 3.8 and the 4.0 sound the same when accelerating from a stop...well to me they do.

Yes. The 4.0 has more torque down low. This becomes transparent with an auto transmission, but is a valid issue with the 6-speed in the JK. However, as we all know, it can be overcome with axle gearing.
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:07 PM   #17
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Comparing the torque on the V6 and the I6 is like apples to oranges. The V6 actually redlines at a higher RPM and produces more torque and horsepower than the I6. But, it's at a higher RPM because it's a V6 engine and not a straight 6.
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Old 06-25-2007, 06:47 AM   #18
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hm, love the 1st post and then nothing from him/her...LOL
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Old 06-25-2007, 08:42 AM   #19
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Yes. The 4.0 has more torque down low. This becomes transparent with an auto transmission, but is a valid issue with the 6-speed in the JK. However, as we all know, it can be overcome with axle gearing.
BTW how tough/easy is it to change differential gears? I have never done that.

Since we are speaking of technology...Nascar uses a quick change differential, actually mant racecars use that. Why isn't that technology transferred to the real world? In motorcycles technology catches up in the real world about 2 or 3 years later.
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Old 06-25-2007, 09:38 PM   #20
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BTW how tough/easy is it to change differential gears? I have never done that.

Since we are speaking of technology...Nascar uses a quick change differential, actually mant racecars use that. Why isn't that technology transferred to the real world? In motorcycles technology catches up in the real world about 2 or 3 years later.

Actually they DID. It was called a Halibrand Quick Change. It was very prevalent in the 50's and 60's. In a quick responce, they did not hold up that well. In NASCAR, I am sure that they are rebuilt after every race. But honestly, I dont know why they dont use them, other than cost. To answer your question about installing gears, It a tedious, exacting job thats VERY expensive if you mess up..... I do an average of 3 jeeps a WEEK. I love doing gears.....

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Old 06-25-2007, 09:54 PM   #21
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But then in NASCAR, they usually hae 3 or 4 different gear set for each track, depending on track conditions, and the type of tire they want to run... so a quick change durring pre-race warmups makes a lot more sense.
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Old 06-25-2007, 10:01 PM   #22
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Sorry for a newbie question and an off topic post...but is that what paople talk about when they mention gearing? The differentials?

I know what they mean when they say 4.10, 3.73 etc...it's just thst I thought it would be a tough job yet many talk about as if it's done weekely to thier Jeep.
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Old 06-25-2007, 10:04 PM   #23
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Yes, the gears inside the diff. Its not that tough a job if you know what your doing... I had a friend change gears 3 times in one week though
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:40 PM   #24
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Thumbs up New Technology

I have been busy working on legs and just got the chance to read the replies to my original post. I found them quite interesting as a newbie. I have no problem with technology as long as it needed, reliable and not costly. I see no need to be held hostage by technology. A perfect example is the accelerator by wire. A old style cable is quite reliable and I have never had one break. The entire assembly can be replaced for under $100.00. Automobile companies force us to pay extra for this kind of crap that is not necessary. I may be a little old fashioned and I expect quality and value for my hand earned dollar. I believe most manufacturers rush their products to the market and guinea pig the consumer. I see it in my business routinely. I'll get off my soap now.
I will be driving my TJ tomorrow!
By the way if you are driving a "drive by wire vehicle" what are you going to be when it takes a dump some night in the middle of nowhere?
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:01 PM   #25
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I don't have a problem with 'technology' at all - as long as it's well done. I find EFI systems and all that stuff to be a HUGE plus. I dont think they're complex - once you understand them and how they work the whole setup is extremely simple. Not only that - but it allows you to simplify certain operations of a car (such as gauge clusters, emissions, and all that stuff), and allows you to manipulate your vehicle via software or modified hardware (and I'm not talking about JET chips or manufactured flashes) to best suit your needs in specific situations, not relying on a 'universal rule of thumb' control system. In addition - the use of computers has only HELPED me in finding problems in my vehicle as the computer can tell you fairly accurately what specific components it's confused about.

ABS, ESC, ST - all that stuff are huge plusses that allow you to be safer in your vehicle. I think where people start to dislike them in the performance community is when they are installed with too many failsafes and can't be disabled when having them off is an advantage; however that's hardly the fault of the technology and moreso one of the lawyers.

If it wasn't for the 'latest and greatest' - we'd still be sputtering around in stinky old CJs that vaporlock and stall on the slightest bit of tilt. If you don't want your tech - I'd be glad to take it off your hands for you.
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:42 PM   #26
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Technology

I agree as long as it is necessary and done right. I have had too many problems with the electronics on vehicles in the past that the dealers could not solve. That is why I gave up on that particuler brand.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:12 PM   #27
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A perfect example is the accelerator by wire. A old style cable is quite reliable and I have never had one break. The entire assembly can be replaced for under $100.00.
By the way if you are driving a "drive by wire vehicle" what are you going to be when it takes a dump some night in the middle of nowhere?

Ok, First off. Drive by wire is COMPLETELY needed to control the people that think they can drive the new Jeep like a corvette. No drive by wire, no traction control, or roll mitigation. The Jeep needs to be smarter than the idiot driving it and pull throttle to control itself. When my drive by wire takes a dump, I will be sitting right next to your TJ when the Crank position sensor takes a dump. The problem is, there are documented failures of a CPS, as there are no failures of the Drive by wire system as of yet. Ford has been doing it in EVERY Super Duty/F-250 problem free since 1997 and I am sure that the Jeep system will be just as problem free. Every vehicle type is going to have problems. You can almost write a book by pattern failures of todays vehicles. Nothing is perfect NOR problem free, so why worry yourself to death about something that may happen on the way to work or may NEVER happen.


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Old 06-28-2007, 03:51 PM   #28
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Technology

Joe, your comments and opinions are appreciated. The crankshaft position sensor in my '02 F-350 7.3 took a dump last week.

In my case, I think I may update my '01 sport to a TJ Sahara or Rubi.

I will address some questions to the TJ Forum at that time as I hope you will reply. As a former auto and heavy equipment mechanic prior to becoming a leg doc I recognized from your posts you know your Sh?t
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:08 PM   #29
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Technology

Joe, your comments and opinions are appreciated. The crankshaft position sensor in my '02 F-350 7.3 took a dump last week.
In my case, I think I may update my '01 sport to a TJ Sahara or Rubi.
I will address some questions to the TJ Forum at that time as I hope you will reply. As a former auto and heavy equipment mechanic prior to becoming a leg doc I recognized from your posts you know your Sh?t

Until then I'll try not to "worry myself to death" as life is too short!

"The more they overtake the sewer the easier to clog the drain"

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Old 06-28-2007, 04:13 PM   #30
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Let's put it this way doc. Joe knows more about Jeeps, than the manufactures, probably do. He is that well informed, and has done that many surgeries, on them. I have asked him questions about my modified YJ, that he answered. Anyone can ask him questions, about any model Jeep, and he will be able to respond, with an intelligent answer. Makes no difference if you are running a fuel injected V8, or the new V6, he does no his trade.

I have to add this part, he does a lot of this, with no money exchanged, unlike any doctor, I have ever known. He is just that passionate, about Jeeps.

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