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Old 07-18-2013, 07:53 PM   #1
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Do You Double Clutch?

My previous manual transmission was a 1994 Saab 9000 with about 160,000 miles on it. The syncromesh didn't really work anymore, so I had to double clutch a few gears to prevent grinding.

Though I also find myself doing it in the jeep whenever I downshift as I'm coasting to a stop, or when I'm downshifting a few gears for some good acceleration. Makes for a nice seamless transition.

Do you double clutch?

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Old 07-18-2013, 08:15 PM   #2
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Do I double clutch?



Nope.


How do you down shift for acceleration?

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Old 07-18-2013, 08:19 PM   #3
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Do I double clutch?

Nope.

How do you down shift for acceleration?
Let's say im going 55 on some back roads in 6th gear and need to pass someone, so I shift to neutral, clutch out, rev up, clutch in, shift to 4th, clutch out, mash the gas. Transition is smooth as butter.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:29 PM   #4
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Oh I see what you are saying. And no I am way to lazy to do that I do throttle match though, but if I am trying to gain speed in a hurry I would never considered double clutching if I didn't have to unless I had a load of logs behind me.

And beside my jeep would have lost 5mph in the time it toom me to do what you described. No kidding as soon as I hit the clutch its slowing down fast.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:08 PM   #5
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My last 3 vehicles have been auto's, but IMO there is no need to double clutch a synchro tranny, that's why the synchro's are there to match the gear to engine speed.

I drive a semi for a living, mostly oversize/overweight loads and use at least 12 gears and I have 72 available (18 speed with a 4 speed aux' box) for the real heavy stuff (150,000 lbs +), I never use the clutch for anything other than stopping or starting, you just listen to the engine and use the throttle to match your up/down shift.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:48 PM   #6
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My last 3 vehicles have been auto's, but IMO there is no need to double clutch a synchro tranny, that's why the synchro's are there to match the gear to engine speed.

I drive a semi for a living, mostly oversize/overweight loads and use at least 12 gears and I have 72 available (18 speed with a 4 speed aux' box) for the real heavy stuff (150,000 lbs +), I never use the clutch for anything other than stopping or starting, you just listen to the engine and use the throttle to match your up/down shift.
Double clutching a modern syncro tranny is pretty pointless. When I downshift from 6th to 4th in my Mustang I rev match while the clutch is disengaged. No need to engage the clutch just to rev match.

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Old 07-18-2013, 09:50 PM   #7
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I have to only on fourth gear the syncros are all screwed up. But after driving tractor trailers for 13 years it's kind of a habit anyway seeing how you have to in those.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:14 PM   #8
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pppfffff.didnt you learn anything from fast and furious."not double clutching" you never had me you never had your jeep!!!

sorry man i just couldn't resist
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:20 PM   #9
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:32 PM   #10
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All you accomplish double clutching a transmission with synchros is wearing your clutch faster. Every time you disengage and engage your clutch your causing wear, just like with brakes, every cycle causes wear.

Your not driving a high horsepower preformance car on a track where shaving a few thousandths of a second matters, your not trying to increase your power to ground time and reduce trail braking or spin. It's a Jeep and the only place an extra second is going to count is when you roll twice instead of once on the way back down the hill.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:00 PM   #11
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You get used to it and can do it without losing any mph.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:05 PM   #12
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Nope. You know what else has a transition as smooth as butter? Normal shifting. Double clutching these transmissions has no real benefit and actually, as mentioned earlier, leads to faster clutch wear.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #13
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^ x2

It's a sincro box. No need to double the clutch. Can if you wish, but it will do nothing but add extra wear to your clutch.

And if your worried about loosing speed. Why did you buy a Jeep?
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by boon4376 View Post
Do you double clutch?
No, I let the automatic transmission handle it all.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:55 AM   #15
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:27 AM   #16
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:35 AM   #17
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^ x2

It's a sincro box. No need to double the clutch. Can if you wish, but it will do nothing but add extra wear to your clutch.
If you are worried about extra wear on your clutch why did you buy a jeep?
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:58 AM   #18
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I don't double clutch. I figure when the synchros go out in 100K+ miles I'll just rebuild it and put new synchros in and be good for another 100K+.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:00 AM   #19
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Nope. You know what else has a transition as smooth as butter? Normal shifting. Double clutching these transmissions has no real benefit and actually, as mentioned earlier, leads to faster clutch wear.
I actually have smoother shifts if I don't use the clutch. It's a little difficult going into 5th since it grinds a bit, so I usually hold 4th a little longer and skip to 6th.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:01 AM   #20
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Rev matching works too, without having to stand in N. Clutch in, tap the gas & shift at the same time, clutch out.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:20 PM   #21
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I've never owned a car with an automatic trans and this is only the second time I've ever heard of double clutching (the first time was in "Fast and Furious"). Seems like a waste to me.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:36 PM   #22
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Rev matching works too, without having to stand in N. Clutch in, tap the gas & shift at the same time, clutch out.
QFT.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #23
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I need to learn more about rev matching... My 12' 6-sod seems to really dislike downshifting - it is usually a pretty rough shift when I select the gear that is really the most appropriate for the speed I'm going. for example...

Say I am going 45mph and I am in 5th gear, and I come into a turn where I need to slow down.

As I enter the turn, I push in the clutch and get ready to go into the best gear for the speed I will be going coming out of the turn. Say that speed is 20 mph. Normally at 20mph I would going into 3rd gear, but if I shift into 3rd the jeep bucks a bit. If I choose 4th the shift is butter smooth but I can feel I'm bogging the engine a bit.

What should I be doing to be able to go into 3rd without bucking?

This is especially bad when going down into 2nd or 1st from any higher gear, so I typically pick the next gear up since I know the shift will be smooth.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:01 PM   #24
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I need to learn more about rev matching... My 12' 6-sod seems to really dislike downshifting - it is usually a pretty rough shift when I select the gear that is really the most appropriate for the speed I'm going. for example...

Say I am going 45mph and I am in 5th gear, and I come into a turn where I need to slow down.

As I enter the turn, I push in the clutch and get ready to go into the best gear for the speed I will be going coming out of the turn. Say that speed is 20 mph. Normally at 20mph I would going into 3rd gear, but if I shift into 3rd the jeep bucks a bit. If I choose 4th the shift is butter smooth but I can feel I'm bogging the engine a bit.

What should I be doing to be able to go into 3rd without bucking?

This is especially bad when going down into 2nd or 1st from any higher gear, so I typically pick the next gear up since I know the shift will be smooth.
Ok, so what you're doing is down shifting. You aren't actually rev-matching.

You're 50% of the way there - you're picking the right gear. But now, you also need to "pick the right RPMs".

Let's take your example. You're coming in to the turn in 4th gear, and you know you're slowing down. Downshifting here is great and makes sense, but you need to "rev match" in third gear. If you are in 4th, clutch in, shift to 3rd, and clutch out, your RPMs are probably either (a) dropping too fast, meaning you need more gas before you let the clutch out in 3rd (less likely based on your description), OR (b) dropping too slowly - meaning that your RPMs jump (spike) when you let the clutch out.

Here's how to fix this... rev match :-)

So, think about what your RPMs would normally be in 3rd gear at 20 MPH. Not sure? Go test it out, and remember the number. Now, your goal is to get your RPMs to that same number as you downshift. You might need to either pause in neutral (or double clutch to let your RPMs fall), or wait 1 second before letting the clutch out (either of these will work if your RPMs are too high to go directly to 3rd gear - which is my guess of your situation). OR, if you RPMs are too LOW when you hit 3rd gear, and you want them to be higher, give your accelerator a quick punch, to bring the RPMs up. Once you get good at doing this one, you can look in to heel-toe shifting, which is where you are braking with the toes of your right foot, while hitting the gas with the heel of your right foot, to bring those RPMs up (left foot is clutching).

Put simply: ANY time you shift (up shift OR down shift), you want your RPMs before you let the clutch out to be as close as possible to what they will be AFTER you let the clutch out. Synchros will help a lot with this in a modern transmission, but in order to get the smoothest ride possible, you can try to help your synchros and gears by doing some of this work for them (by shifting slower (double shift) or by rev matching (bringing RPMs up), as needed).

Hope this made sense! Go try it out and have fun - it'll take a lot of time to get it right, but once you get it, you'll have it for good! And it feels great :-)
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:05 PM   #25
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Quick addition - the lower your gear that you're downshifting to, the more you'll feel the lurch of having your RPMs too high (mainly due to gearing ratios). Your comment at the end of your post (saying it's especially bad in 1st or 2nd) is what made me assume your RPMs are higher than what the lower gear wants (as opposed to being lower).

Generally speaking, the lower the gear you're down shifting into, the higher you'll have to rev match. This is based fully on gearing ratios, so it changes from vehicle to vehicle, but it's a good rule of thumb.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:24 PM   #26
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Thanks guys - both informative and helpful posts... I've tried 'rev-matching' a few times but only while single clutching - meaning I push in the clutch and select lower gear, while clutch is dis-engaged (pushed in), blip the throttle, and then let clutch out while giving some gas. I just wasn't sure if what I was doing was right and more so just how much "blip" is needed.

I'll pay more attention to the actual RPMs. Typically in my jeep I'm usually at around a little under 2k RPMs. It seems to like up-shifting best around 2,000-2,500 RPMs.

I know it is probably more complicated than this, and you mentioned remembering the specific RPMs each gear would be at at a particular speed, but would a good rule ot thumb be to try and keep the engine at around 2k RPMs when downshifting?

I hope that makes sense. I appreciate the insight. Obviously my first manual. I've got about 10k miles on the jeep and I'm definitely getting better, but I want to make sure I'm really treating this engine and tranny with the respect it deserves so we both live long and happy lives together.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:36 PM   #27
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Thanks guys - both informative and helpful posts... I've tried 'rev-matching' a few times but only while single clutching - meaning I push in the clutch and select lower gear, while clutch is dis-engaged (pushed in), blip the throttle, and then let clutch out while giving some gas. I just wasn't sure if what I was doing was right and more so just how much "blip" is needed.

I'll pay more attention to the actual RPMs. Typically in my jeep I'm usually at around a little under 2k RPMs. It seems to like up-shifting best around 2,000-2,500 RPMs.

I know it is probably more complicated than this, and you mentioned remembering the specific RPMs each gear would be at at a particular speed, but would a good rule ot thumb be to try and keep the engine at around 2k RPMs when downshifting?

I hope that makes sense. I appreciate the insight. Obviously my first manual. I've got about 10k miles on the jeep and I'm definitely getting better, but I want to make sure I'm really treating this engine and tranny with the respect it deserves so we both live long and happy lives together.
hanging around 2k rpms is usually at the power sweet spot, so yeah that's fine. I wouldn't bother looking down at your gauges all the time, though. It will get you in trouble.

I give the throttle a stab just as i'm pressing in the clutch when downshifting. By the time the clutch is disengaged and i move the shifter to the next gear, the engine has revved to exactly the right speed and all i need to do is release the clutch. Just something you get used to after driving a while.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:55 AM   #28
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hanging around 2k rpms is usually at the power sweet spot, so yeah that's fine. I wouldn't bother looking down at your gauges all the time, though. It will get you in trouble.

I give the throttle a stab just as i'm pressing in the clutch when downshifting. By the time the clutch is disengaged and i move the shifter to the next gear, the engine has revved to exactly the right speed and all i need to do is release the clutch. Just something you get used to after driving a while.
Agreed - sorry, I should have clarified a bit more.... you definitely don't want to be watching your RPMs all the time. Essentially, you should get to know the sound/feel well enough to know when your RPMs are in the right spot. Takes time, but it'll happen.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:06 AM   #29
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Agreed - sorry, I should have clarified a bit more.... you definitely don't want to be watching your RPMs all the time. Essentially, you should get to know the sound/feel well enough to know when your RPMs are in the right spot. Takes time, but it'll happen.
Hard to get to know the sound when it seems most people want to make sure their stereo has more power than the Jeep.

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