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Old 06-30-2013, 01:33 AM   #61
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Expect a huge price premium, diesel exhaust fluid (DEF), and MPGs that won't deliver on your expectations. This is not your Cummins style motor found in the Ram...or the one Jeep exports to Europe. Try the GC diesel. My X5 35d is ok, fairly quiet, decent 25 MPG for the weight, and has a noticable turbo lag. Overall, decent, but not exciting like my old Ram with the Cummins. I will not be one of the Jeep diesel customers...not the motor I want. Perfectly happy with the Pentastar...I would sell the X5 today if my wife allowed.

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:17 AM   #62
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Expect a huge price premium, diesel exhaust fluid (DEF), and MPGs that won't deliver on your expectations. This is not your Cummins style motor found in the Ram...or the one Jeep exports to Europe. Try the GC diesel. My X5 35d is ok, fairly quiet, decent 25 MPG for the weight, and has a noticable turbo lag. Overall, decent, but not exciting like my old Ram with the Cummins. I will not be one of the Jeep diesel customers...not the motor I want. Perfectly happy with the Pentastar...I would sell the X5 today if my wife allowed.
The diesel has more torque than the hemi. It has 160 ft lbs more than the head gobbling tickastar. Yep..... I will take the diesel.

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:34 AM   #63
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Don't get your hopes up...

I've got one of their 4 cylinder diesels in my '06 Liberty. Tons of torque but thats where the value ends. The engine itself is fine but the electronics around it suck and it never runs right to get max mileage. Frankly I've never been a fan of any kind of V-x diesels unless you're into the really massive stuff. Look at the Detroit 8V92's (V-8). Piece of crap compared to their inline Series 60.i've owned both and have a 60 in my current coach.

Keep in mind also that all these torque measurements are at the flywheel before pollution controls.. By the time they get all the emissions control programming into the fuel pump, plan on MUCH less at the wheels.

They would be way better to go with a small block inline diesel with minimal electronics. The thing will undoubtedly have DEF as well,adding to operating costs. And then there are the timing belts - plan on a couple of thousand dollars about every 150,000 km. None of those issues in a Cummins.

I've had 3 Jetta TDI's, and after about 150,000 km, they cost so much to maintain that any fuel economy savings through 50mpg are rapidly eaten up in repair bills. (Timing belts, turbo inter coolers, etc. had to replace that on my liberty as well).

If it had a straight forward I-4 Cummins, I'd be all over it. Otherwise, IMHO a complete waste of money unless your SOLE application is LOW mileage off road where you think you need the added torque.

They don't build 'em like they used to - small diesels a specific case in point. Also be careful of something introduced like this late in a model design. It could well be "stranded" for support and parts. Whose to say it isn't a marketing test that gets abandoned or CHANGED in the subsequent redesign?

If you don't agree, go read some Liberty CRD forums. You just can't get parts or service, and the engine is by the same people. Mine waited a year for inter cooler hoses. There are guys on there who can't even drive their Liberty CRD's for want of Venturi parts.

If Jeep execs read this, leverage the Dodge Cummins alliance and put a small I-4 Cummins in it, otherwise, it will just be a piece of European crap.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:35 AM   #64
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The Cummins 4BT is way too big and heavy for a Wrangler. I don't think they have any other options.

Unfortunately, The EPA and the NHTSA are at odds with each other here in the US. A lot of what we, as consumers, would want to buy is not available due to safety and/or emissions/MPG reasons.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:29 AM   #65
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You are right about that, but Im talking about the motor itself. Generally they are pretty bulletproof. Agree with you again on the modern crap fitted to diesels, basically neutering them a bit. However, they will last AT LEAST as much as a gasser, and with tuning, you can expect a diesel wrangler to have 300hp and 550ft/lbs of torque. Like I said, a diesel isn't for everyone. Many won't have a practical purpose for one.

Im also banking on the fact that someone in the government will realize that clean diesel is the future (maybe or next president) after all the electric cars go bust, and our government will finally start subsidizing diesel (like Europe) and the price will drop. Even with the added cost, it would be a worthwhile purchase for me.
I know this isn't a political forum but how exactly does a government subsidy equate to lower cost?
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:42 AM   #66
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More government (EPA) is why we don't have many diesel choices. Subsidies come with strings attached and we all pay for it via taxes.

We, as consumers, should vote with our wallets on just how much safety and fuel mileage we want.

Emission standards have come a long way, I don't think anyone wants to go back to the 50's. But catalytic converters and DPFs on diesels are just too much. The complications and reduction in economy outweigh any benefits. What good is it to reduce emissions by small percentages when you are now burning more fuel per mile in order to achieve a given standard?
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:46 AM   #67
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What good is it to reduce emissions by small percentages when you are now burning more fuel per mile in order to achieve a given standard?
I'm guessing an oil company's CFO would be the proper person to answer that.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:50 PM   #68
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Go back a few years, when write ups were coming out on the Pentastar. It was developed to have a single and twin turbo version. That combo might match Fords ecoboost engine, which has great hp. and trq. numbers. Now put the new 8 speed auto behind that and you would have a really nice drive train. The low range of the Rubicon (4.1) would suck for all but the most technical rocks with the 8 speeds 4.71 first gear, and I bet that will replace the current 5 speed. So I expect the 4.1 to either be dropped or changed to 3.??.....but like most, I'm guessing out loud and probably wrong!
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:53 PM   #69
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Diesel = good. Forget economy, though it will likely best a gas engine there, a proper diesel will out perform a gas engine for most folk's everyday uses. People get wrapped up around peak power - however, peak power generally doesn't mean much off a track.

Let us take a fun hypothetical. Lets say we have an engine that produces 425 lb-ft of torque from 1500-3500 rpm where I do almost all of my driving. Lets say we also have an engine that produces 350 lb-ft of torque between 1500-3500 rpm. If I were to select an engine based on its performance in the rpm range I use every day, that would be a really simple choice. Somehow, when folks find out that second engine has a higher peak power output they go all weak at the knees and proclaim it superior. If you need an engine that screams at high RPM, gas is still where it's at. If you want an engine that produces robust torque where you actually spend most of your time operating, gas might not be the best option anymore. Just something worth thinking about.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:09 PM   #70
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everytime I see one of these threads it's been backed up by a year.

Xyz confirms diesel for 2014

Xyz confirms diesel for 2015

Xyz confirms diesel for 2016

When it's for sale, and you can buy one right here in this country, I'll believe it.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:24 PM   #71
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I remember reading it a couple other times too... Seems much more substantial this time around since the new Diesel is in both the Ram and the Grand Cherokee. The Liberty thing seemed like a much more half-hearted experiment.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:29 PM   #72
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I dont see the 240 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque VM Diesel out performing a 6.4-liter Hemi V8 with 470 horsepower and 470 lb-ft of torque .The 5.7 produces 390 hp and 407 torque.Perhaps the 5.7 would be closer but I think the higher RPMS and hp numbers will give even the 5.7 the edge over the VM Diesel.
High RPM numbers are pretty worthless in a Wrangler. When I was wheeling in Moab, I spend most of my time under 2500 rpm.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:31 PM   #73
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Bite YOUR tongue satan!
I have seen chipped diesels nearly double their horsepower, and double their torque. On the conservative side, a chip in this motor might give 350hp and nearly 580ft/lbs of torque. It would be able to burnout starting in 5th.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:36 PM   #74
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I know this isn't a political forum but how exactly does a government subsidy equate to lower cost?
In Europe, the diesel model of a vehicle is the cheapest model, in the US, it's the most expensive. The Europeans also subsidize clean diesel, while we in the US subsidize stupid solar crap (Solyndra) and batteries, which is why diesel costs more than gas in the US, and is the cheapest in the rest of the civilized world.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:55 PM   #75
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In Europe, the diesel model of a vehicle is the cheapest model, in the US, it's the most expensive. The Europeans also subsidize clean diesel, while we in the US subsidize stupid solar crap (Solyndra) and batteries, which is why diesel costs more than gas in the US, and is the cheapest in the rest of the civilized world.
Okay. You missed the implied point.

Government subsidies come out of our (the people not the government) pocket. This benefits the few individuals who would choose to drive a diesel vehicle at the expense of the greater society.

The point is subsidies don't save money in the long run. They just hide the expenditure so that people don't think they're paying for a particular good or service.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:53 AM   #76
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Okay. You missed the implied point.

Government subsidies come out of our (the people not the government) pocket. This benefits the few individuals who would choose to drive a diesel vehicle at the expense of the greater society.

The point is subsidies don't save money in the long run. They just hide the expenditure so that people don't think they're paying for a particular good or service.
Not exactly true. The money is taxed regardless. You lose your money "energy tax" anyway, except instead of the government subsidizing something that helps the people, it has its own agenda and spends the money with zero benefit to the people (ie Solar crap, hybrid crap, etc. etc.) Whether you like it or not, you are paying the money anyway, only in this case, you are getting robbed completely, rather than being robbed and have something returned to you. Your post would only ring true if you weren't taxed in the first place.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:17 AM   #77
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Not exactly true. The money is taxed regardless. You lose your money "energy tax" anyway, except instead of the government subsidizing something that helps the people, it has its own agenda and spends the money with zero benefit to the people (ie Solar crap, hybrid crap, etc. etc.) Whether you like it or not, you are paying the money anyway, only in this case, you are getting robbed completely, rather than being robbed and have something returned to you. Your post would only ring true if you weren't taxed in the first place.
Yep and I say we agree to disagree so that the Mods don't have to shut this thread down.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:19 AM   #78
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My guess is that the engine they are talking about is the same engine that is in my Mercedes Sprinter, a 3.0 V-6 turbo of Italian mfr, 190hp mated to a 5-spd auto, and a 3.92 diff. It has an Aluminum block. Many of the Sprinters have in excess of 200,000 miles on them, some have 500,000.
If that engine were in a Wrangler with the 8 spd auto it would be a stump puller. But, it would be very costly to buy and operate. Special engine oil, DEF, and a computer that will not allow the engine to start if you run out of DEF. And no you cannot just pee in the tank.
Oil and filter is required to be changed every 10K, DEF added then also. Even Mercedes admits that it is significantly more expensive to operate than a gas engine.
I want a Turbo charged Pentastar or an Aluminum block hemi that will cut back to 4 cyl operation on the flats. Mileage will be just as good as the diesel and less expensive to purchase from Fiat-ler.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #79
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My guess is that the engine they are talking about is the same engine that is in my Mercedes Sprinter, a 3.0 V-6 turbo of Italian mfr, 190hp mated to a 5-spd auto, and a 3.92 diff. It has an Aluminum block. Many of the Sprinters have in excess of 200,000 miles on them, some have 500,000.
If that engine were in a Wrangler with the 8 spd auto it would be a stump puller. But, it would be very costly to buy and operate. Special engine oil, DEF, and a computer that will not allow the engine to start if you run out of DEF. And no you cannot just pee in the tank.
Oil and filter is required to be changed every 10K, DEF added then also. Even Mercedes admits that it is significantly more expensive to operate than a gas engine.
I want a Turbo charged Pentastar or an Aluminum block hemi that will cut back to 4 cyl operation on the flats. Mileage will be just as good as the diesel and less expensive to purchase from Fiat-ler.
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Where did you read that the 3.0 Diesel has an aluminum block? It has aluminum heads, but I don't think the block is aluminum.
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:57 PM   #80
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Where did you read that the 3.0 Diesel has an aluminum block? It has aluminum heads, but I don't think the block is aluminum.
Please note that I stated "My guess is.........".
My reference is to the engine in my Sprinter, it does indeed have an Aluminum block, and is made by a company in Italy owned by Mercedes. I have not read about any engine specifically for the Wrangler....I don't think anyone has, other than speculation....which is why I started my statement with "My guess is".
Sorry if it was confusing the thread.

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Old 07-02-2013, 07:44 AM   #81
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The glory of owning a Diesel is not so glorious after you actually own one.
You will never come out ahead on the added cost of the engine over a gas by fuel savings as long as Diesel is near $4 and gas is under $3.50.

Even knowing this I would still be hard pressed to pass one up.
I am anxious to see what the weight of the engine is versus the gas. The Cummins in my Ram was eating the front end because it was so heavy.It also sank like a rock in the mud.
We can all thank the EPA for the price of diesel. It used to be and still should be much cheaper than gas but for all the restrictions that the EPA placed on its emissions requiring significantly more refining and additives. Diesel used to be 20% cheaper than gas and it still should be.

Lastly a little known fact. The diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil. That was until the oil mafia found out about the new motor and quickly adapted petroleum products to replace the renewable peanut oil.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:10 AM   #82
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But catalytic converters and DPFs on diesels are just too much. The complications and reduction in economy outweigh any benefits. What good is it to reduce emissions by small percentages when you are now burning more fuel per mile in order to achieve a given standard?
Well said friend. I wish I could jam this down each individuals throat at the EPA!!!
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:12 AM   #83
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Diesel = good. Forget economy, though it will likely best a gas engine there, a proper diesel will out perform a gas engine for most folk's everyday uses. People get wrapped up around peak power - however, peak power generally doesn't mean much off a track.

Let us take a fun hypothetical. Lets say we have an engine that produces 425 lb-ft of torque from 1500-3500 rpm where I do almost all of my driving. Lets say we also have an engine that produces 350 lb-ft of torque between 1500-3500 rpm. If I were to select an engine based on its performance in the rpm range I use every day, that would be a really simple choice. Somehow, when folks find out that second engine has a higher peak power output they go all weak at the knees and proclaim it superior. If you need an engine that screams at high RPM, gas is still where it's at. If you want an engine that produces robust torque where you actually spend most of your time operating, gas might not be the best option anymore. Just something worth thinking about.
Mmmmmhhhhhmm
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:53 PM   #84
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2016 Wrangler Diesel

Available in 2015, will be a diesel option in the US.

2016 Jeep Wrangler To Get Diesel Engine | Edmunds.com

I am thinking, it's about time. No one appreciates torque more than I do, and the extended range this will over is exactly what I want for the type of exploring I like to do. It should be able to get 30 mpg depending on gearing and tires.

I was debating building my own diesel and now I can forget about that and have something to look forward to...a 2016 or later 2Door Rubicon will be my choice and I will probably go with the new body style depending on the changes.

The article states, it will come with a new refresh--doubtful. I've also read it will be release just prior to the refresh to keep sales up on the current model--which seems more likely.

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Old 10-11-2013, 05:10 PM   #85
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I am very happy for the diesel enthusiasts on this forum. I am also quite content with my Pentastar, but I hope this really happens.
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:18 PM   #86
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Like any other model vehicle, even if they use an engine that is already being used in other vehicles, I think it would be a mistake to jump on a diesel the very first year.... but that's the way I am.... rather wait for the bugs to be worked off before buying..... did just that with my new 2013 jk and am right to have waited..... so might wait till 2017-18 before I even consider to trade...
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #87
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like any other model vehicle, even if they use an engine that is already being used in other vehicles, i think it would be a mistake to jump on a diesel the very first year.... But that's the way i am.... Rather wait for the bugs to be worked out...
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:33 PM   #88
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On one hand, I'm thrilled to hear about the low-end torque boost (assuming they give it the 3.0L CRD). On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm ready to see a $50k sticker on a wrangler...
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:44 PM   #89
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On one hand, I'm thrilled to hear about the low-end torque boost (assuming they give it the 3.0L CRD). On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm ready to see a $50k sticker on a wrangler...
According to the president of VM, the Wrangler will be getting an updated 4 banger diesel, and thats the one the US (and the rest of the world) will get, NOT the 3.0. Although I hope it's not true, it probably is, and company wise, makes financial sense.

People (myself included) have been mistakenly thinking that it makes financial sense for chrysler to stick the 3.0 into the wrangler because they already use it on the GC and the Ram right? Wrong. What that would ACTUALLY mean, is that they would need to have 2 different diesel motors for the wrangler (europe isn't going to get the 3.0 100%) and that is an ADDED expense. It makes MUCH more sense for them to sell the Euro market diesel in the US (since it's already built in the US) and save money.
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:47 PM   #90
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As the owner, and driver of a diesel wrangler, I have to say it is a great vehicle to drive, not smelly, a little noisy but consistently 25+mpg and 32+mpg on country drives.
It is the first diesel I've ever owned, and I love it!

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