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Old 01-21-2011, 05:21 PM   #31
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Fresh water is being used more then it's being replenished and 7 gallons of it to produce 1 gallon of ethanol is crazy.

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Old 01-21-2011, 05:40 PM   #32
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I have another friend who invested in a ethanol company from the ground up about 8 years ago. For the first few years he made huge dividends (profits) then it came to a screeching halt. Now they are loosing money and the stock price tanked. Maybe a Nickel on the dollar or less. I think there troubles started when crude prices dipped low and it priced them out of the fuel market. Even with government help it is a very bleak and tough business now. But with the high and rising crude prices it may make a rebound.

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Old 01-21-2011, 05:43 PM   #33
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I have read summaries of a large number of studies on production of corn based ethanol. The range is that it takes between .75 & 1.2 units of energy to produce 1 unit of corn based ethanol energy. At the best, it's not very efficient and at the worst it's a losing proposition. But none of the reputable studies support a 2 for 1 energy cost.

Regarding the effects on food supply and the environment, only an idiot or a congressman would believe that corn based ethanol is a net benefit.
The accurate studies put it at 1.2 to 1.3. Certainly not efficient...certainly not costing energy either. Hence, myth.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:51 PM   #34
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I read somewhere that in Mexico they were digging up the agave plant to make room for corn, thanks to the ethanol demand. I don't know anything about the ethical/environmental issues, but dang it, stay away from my Tequila.

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Old 01-21-2011, 06:48 PM   #35
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Ironic timing:

EPA approves more ethanol in fuel for cars - Yahoo! News

Funny..."It seems like corn growers and the ethanol industry are the only real winners here,"

Seems like pretty much everyone else is against. I'll throw my vote in against it as well...not everyone drives new cars, morons.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:37 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Bubba68CS

The accurate studies put it at 1.2 to 1.3. Certainly not efficient...certainly not costing energy either. Hence, myth.
Can I ask what you mean by this? Is this study just to produce the ethanol, or (as alluded to earlier) produce/ship the ethanol. I worry about the "experts" numbers. Work with numbers as much as I do and you realize anyone with an agenda can manipulate numbers to get to whatever determination they want. I just wonder if these ratios were done by people with skin in the game and they decided to leave out certain things like the energy needed to ship the gas to the farms, then the energy needed to ship the ethanol to the gas stations. Then, did they take into account that ethanol gets worse mpg then normal gas. Lots to consider.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:56 PM   #37
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Can I ask what you mean by this? Is this study just to produce the ethanol, or (as alluded to earlier) produce/ship the ethanol. I worry about the "experts" numbers. Work with numbers as much as I do and you realize anyone with an agenda can manipulate numbers to get to whatever determination they want. I just wonder if these ratios were done by people with skin in the game and they decided to leave out certain things like the energy needed to ship the gas to the farms, then the energy needed to ship the ethanol to the gas stations. Then, did they take into account that ethanol gets worse mpg then normal gas. Lots to consider.
1) Ethanol getting worse mpg has nothing to do with anything when it comes to the energy balance. Ethanol has a set amount of energy per unit volume...it requires a certain amount of energy to produce it.

2) The ratio is the amount of energy you get out of the fuel divided by the amount of energy required to make the fuel. In other words 1 unit of input energy will yield 1.2-1.3 units of ethanol corn fuel energy. Many of the comparisons to gasoline have conveniently forgotten the fact that it requires fuel to make the stuff...skewing those numbers. On the same side some of the extreme high end numbers for ethanol were skewed in a similar manner. While I am not one to rely on Wikipedia for reference, their article on "ethanol fuel energy balance" gives a pretty decent list of references. But yes, the energy cost of planting the crops, growing the crops, harvesting the crops, transporting the crops, and producing the ethanol are all taken into account.

There are still variables that are difficult to account for...but to date, those are the most accurate numbers (and its not one source...but many).

And that will only improve as farming and production techniques become more refined. The bigger issues lie elsewhere in the debate...and that is where ethanol REALLY falls short.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:51 PM   #38
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1) Probably wise to avoid political debates on the JK Technical Forum... (i.e., what starving population deserves our charity)
2) The corn from which ethanol is derived is not edible and will not solve starvation anyway. It is mutant corn.
3) Are we wasting resources on farming it that could be better spent elsewhere? Sure, we could share the wealth a lot more in many facets of our lives. However, one thing that we all have in common is that we drive a gas-guzzling vehicle... so we really can't knock the mutant corn industry, can we?
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:30 AM   #39
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2) The corn from which ethanol is derived is not edible and will not solve starvation anyway. It is mutant corn.

The point is, that mutant corn is using resources and growing on land that could be used to produce edible corn or other crops to feed people.

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Old 01-22-2011, 06:36 AM   #40
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Has anybody done a study to determine how much energy it takes to send a bushel of inedible mutant corn to a starving person in Ethiopia?
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:03 AM   #41
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Are the Ethiopians still starving? I need a status update please.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:46 AM   #42
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My future Cummins V6 diesel Wrangler will run on old french fry oil from Mcdonalds, that's why I will be able to survive the Zombie wars.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:58 AM   #43
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Jeep is getting a Diesel? I hope they're still doing the 435hp Supercharged P-star. Either way, I'm not sure if I should run Mobile One or AmsOil. Why am I hungry? and the wife says I have to get seat warmers in our next JK so she can drive it. I told her, "not til you make 3 times as much as me"
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:16 AM   #44
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The point is, that mutant corn is using resources and growing on land that could be used to produce edible corn or other crops to feed people.

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Yes, see #3...

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3) Are we wasting resources on farming it that could be better spent elsewhere? Sure, we could share the wealth a lot more in many facets of our lives. However, one thing that we all have in common is that we drive a gas-guzzling vehicle... so we really can't knock the mutant corn industry, can we?
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:59 PM   #45
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Good point sir
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:57 AM   #46
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Is there a problem with using 10% ethanol?
Water entrainment, less btu value for starters. If our government wouldn't offer insentives to farmers and refiners to produce it, it wouldn't exist.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:00 AM   #47
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i was getting pings under a load going up a hill at lower speeds on 87, so i had to step up to 89. cured the ping.

i put 93 in it once by accident (my other car requires 93 and gets 10mpg, so it makes frequent stops, my last dd required 93 as well) and doubt it all you want but my ass knows the difference, but the engine idled a bit smoother.
I would have your fuel system cleaned, you certainly have deposits causing the knock using 87 octane.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:03 AM   #48
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Can you explain the "2 barrels of crude to make 1 barrel of ethanol" statement? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


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I think he's trying to explain the amount of energy used to produce ethanol, when you consider planting, harvest, rendering, and fractionation, you've used more energy than you've created.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:11 AM   #49
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Ethanol production does NOT require more energy than given by the fuel. That myth is related to two studies that used incorrect assumptions and outdated or poorly documented data to achieve that conclusion. Every recent study has shown ethanol production to yield more energy than it takes to produce.

Not saying it is a viable replacement for gasoline (its not)...but those two particular studies have been debunked many times.
You are quite wrong sir, I work in the refining industry, and am sitting not more than 100yds from equipment that produces "gasoline", which is several different hydrocarbon streams and it's content varies by season. The company I work for also produces "renewable fuels", and it has been made quite clear to us, that the only reason the produce it is to gain the tax benefits and incentives offered by our government. If those programs end tomorrow, they would pull the plug before the ink would dry in on the bill in Congress because it is not a profitable business on it's own.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:11 AM   #50
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I think he's trying to explain the amount of energy used to produce ethanol, when you consider planting, harvest, rendering, and fractionation, you've used more energy than you've created.
I don't think they took into account the thousands of years it took nature to make the crude oil used to produce gasoline.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:27 AM   #51
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You are quite wrong sir, I work in the refining industry, and am sitting not more than 100yds from equipment that produces "gasoline", which is several different hydrocarbon streams and it's content varies by season. The company I work for also produces "renewable fuels", and it has been made quite clear to us, that the only reason the produce it is to gain the tax benefits and incentives offered by our government. If those programs end tomorrow, they would pull the plug before the ink would dry in on the bill in Congress because it is not a profitable business on it's own.
I never once claimed it to be profitable without government subsidies.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:29 AM   #52
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I think he's trying to explain the amount of energy used to produce ethanol, when you consider planting, harvest, rendering, and fractionation, you've used more energy than you've created.
Once again, not true. Has been proven wrong many times. There are only two studies showing that myth to be true, both from around 2005...both made significant errors. If you have more recent data, by all means, publish it.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:39 AM   #53
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All these farm machines run on gasoline, and the actual process of changing corn into ethanol is very energy inten
What farm machines used to harvest corn run on gasoline?
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:20 PM   #54
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Once again, not true. Has been proven wrong many times. There are only two studies showing that myth to be true, both from around 2005...both made significant errors. If you have more recent data, by all means, publish it.
Now that you mention it, where is your data?
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:38 PM   #55
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How can you guys let a gem like this get by?

Quote:
doubt it all you want but my ass knows the difference
gay.


Also here's some data. The trend is roughly 1.29 gallons of fossil fuel for 1 gallon of ethanol. It depends on a lot of different factors. However, the intention is not to save fossil fuels, but to burn cleaner fuel. Me personally? I like electric vehicles. I'm all in for the Nissan Leafs and the Chevy Volts and the Teslas. Granted they're now underpowered and don't have the range, but it'll get there. However, I'm even more so a bigger advocate of urban planning. Public transportation really is much more feasible than everyone driving their own vehicle. I take the train into work everyday and it takes me three connections to get where I want to go and an hour to go twenty five miles. Granted, this runs counter to the gearhead side of me. But the truth is vehicles in general are wasteful. If driving my Jeep was solely a hobby/weekend activity I'd be fine with that and wouldn't mind paying a luxury for the gasoline.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...n3XFmxWbyFnGbA
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:12 PM   #56
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1) Ethanol getting worse mpg has nothing to do with anything when it comes to the energy balance. Ethanol has a set amount of energy per unit volume...it requires a certain amount of energy to produce it.

2) The ratio is the amount of energy you get out of the fuel divided by the amount of energy required to make the fuel. In other words 1 unit of input energy will yield 1.2-1.3 units of ethanol corn fuel energy. Many of the comparisons to gasoline have conveniently forgotten the fact that it requires fuel to make the stuff...skewing those numbers. On the same side some of the extreme high end numbers for ethanol were skewed in a similar manner. While I am not one to rely on Wikipedia for reference, their article on "ethanol fuel energy balance" gives a pretty decent list of references. But yes, the energy cost of planting the crops, growing the crops, harvesting the crops, transporting the crops, and producing the ethanol are all taken into account.

There are still variables that are difficult to account for...but to date, those are the most accurate numbers (and its not one source...but many).

And that will only improve as farming and production techniques become more refined. The bigger issues lie elsewhere in the debate...and that is where ethanol REALLY falls short.
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Originally Posted by licensedtwochill View Post
Now that you mention it, where is your data?
If you need more, a simple google search for 'ethanol energy balance' will keep you busy for quite some time. As I said, there are two out there that have been debunked...everything else gives a positive energy balance - so my references are everything on the subject but those two.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:22 PM   #57
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How can you guys let a gem like this get by?


gay.


Also here's some data. The trend is roughly 1.29 gallons of fossil fuel for 1 gallon of ethanol. It depends on a lot of different factors. However, the intention is not to save fossil fuels, but to burn cleaner fuel. Me personally? I like electric vehicles. I'm all in for the Nissan Leafs and the Chevy Volts and the Teslas. Granted they're now underpowered and don't have the range, but it'll get there. However, I'm even more so a bigger advocate of urban planning. Public transportation really is much more feasible than everyone driving their own vehicle. I take the train into work everyday and it takes me three connections to get where I want to go and an hour to go twenty five miles. Granted, this runs counter to the gearhead side of me. But the truth is vehicles in general are wasteful. If driving my Jeep was solely a hobby/weekend activity I'd be fine with that and wouldn't mind paying a luxury for the gasoline.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...n3XFmxWbyFnGbA
Public transportation absolutely needs to be beefed up in most cities. Its nice going to a city that has a decent transportation system in place. A good friend of mine lives in downtown Chicago - doesn't even own a car. Doesn't need one - he gets everywhere he needs to go by walking or the trains. Its actually easier than owning a car for him.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:38 PM   #58
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Public transportation absolutely needs to be beefed up in most cities. Its nice going to a city that has a decent transportation system in place. A good friend of mine lives in downtown Chicago - doesn't even own a car. Doesn't need one - he gets everywhere he needs to go by walking or the trains. Its actually easier than owning a car for him.
I don't think there's a public transit system in the country that isn't losing money. Sure they're an excellent alternative for the few people who use them, but overall they're a losing proposition.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:54 PM   #59
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I don't think there's a public transit system in the country that isn't losing money. Sure they're an excellent alternative for the few people who use them, but overall they're a losing proposition.
By that account, I can't think of any government program that isn't losing money...
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:59 AM   #60
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By that account, I can't think of any government program that isn't losing money...
You weren't talking about all government programs, you were talking about public transportation. You said it needs to be beefed up in most cities and I replied that cities are already losing money on public transportation. It doesn't make sense to expand a losing program.Try to stay focused.

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