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Old 09-14-2013, 06:32 PM   #31
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Most of my State is public trust land and as a result, you must have a State Land Department annual permit to drive/hike/camp/etc. anywhere on public trust land and the land can be restricted or closed at any time. The fines here for trespassing on trust land is much higher here.

We, as off-roaders, need to know the laws that affect us. The OP was in the wrong and got caught. Unless the OP can provide the Court with a compelling reason for needing to be on the trail [recreation is not a compelling reason], he/she will lose the Court case.

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Old 09-14-2013, 06:41 PM   #32
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Or he can take a walk to the exact location he was caught. Write the coordinates down, and log onto a parcel locator and do his research to see if the wardens were telling the truth or not.

If its co-op land then he can't do nothing about it... But there's a chance that they were full of it.

There are areas in this state that the game commission OWNs. And there are places that the game commission CONTROLS. This is called a co-op... The game commission takes control of a landowners land.. The landowner doesn't have to pay taxes on said land, and the game commission gets money for every acre they take.

On game commission lands there are certain areas where you can drive... On Co-op land, there are no vehicles allowed... Not even the owner can drive on it.

What I loved about living in pa was being able to drive anywhere... I could ride my bike or drive my jeep anywhere in this county. With no problems, nobody cared or said anything.... Then this past year the game commission decides to take everything. It's all about money

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Old 09-14-2013, 06:45 PM   #33
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Curious OP...

Did you check the local sections here for land use information?
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:04 PM   #34
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I did not. I will go back tomorrow, plot the coordinates and post what I find. Thanks.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:08 PM   #35
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This could turn out to be pretty interesting. Would be good to know if the land was public officially or private and you didn't know. Get to it detective.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:33 PM   #36
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Under common law, as least as applied in California, If you didn't open a locked gate, or if the land wasn't posted as specified by law, or unless you were asked to leave by someone with the authority to do so and didn't, you are not trespassing. Trying to detain someone who you think is trespassing can be construed as kidnapping if a prosecutor decides he doesn't like you!

But, the OP obviously isn't dealing with common law trespass. He has probably been ticketed for violating a State regulation, which should be cited on the 'ticket'. Look up the regulation(s), if listed. You may find a loophole. But, you are usually screwed when it's a bureaucratic regulation your dealing with! Good luck!
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:46 PM   #37
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Truth is the whole world is overpopulated, and it's hard to find a place to get away. You can move out west, but you'd be surprised just how many people out here are out there competing with you for use of the land. Places like AK have plenty of unoccupied land, but don't have the road infrastructure for you to drive around and explore.

It's really kind of sad. I guess you shouldn't have driven onto state land without permission, and I guess the cop shouldn't have been such a douche. But neither of those things are really what makes me the saddest about all this.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:04 PM   #38
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It is well documented by ORV groups that any time we off road on land that is not legal to off road on we give ammunition to those groups that hate us to begin with and are trying to shut off all land access to motorized vehicle travel. I am sensitive to this because I grew up in Montana where at one time we could go just about anywhere but that is no longer the case. Off road groups have to show they are stewards of the land and respect land that is off limits. Do a google search on tread lightly and start reading. local group here hippyhaters.com is another good info site.
X1billion... I hate how people brush this off and I am sick of seeing people off the trail or trespassing. Ignorance of the law is not justification of an honest mistake. I just moved out of Colorado and this honest mistake is what is losing our trails.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:11 PM   #39
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From the perspective of a land owner (yes, I am one).... if it isn't your land... then it must belong to someone else. Always make sure you have permission to be there!
Great advise.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:46 PM   #40
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This could turn out to be pretty interesting. Would be good to know if the land was public officially or private and you didn't know. Get to it detective.
I think so too. I'm from here. I see firsthand what's going on and I know what those guys are doing.... But most likely it'll be private. But what I want to know is wether or not the game commission has permission to be there. If not then they were trespassing just as much as him and that fine is unjust.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:08 PM   #41
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Like Teague242 said- to know the Pa game commission is to truly understand the abuse of power and lack of judgement they use. Unlike many other states they view the laws with nearly zero tolerance. We have lost over 25% of the hunters in the state ( which numbered over 1,000,000 at one time) and they refuse to acknowledge the distant for the agency.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:11 PM   #42
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Like Teague242 said- to know the Pa game commission is to truly understand the abuse of power and lack of judgement they use. Unlike many other states they view the laws with nearly zero tolerance. We have lost over 25% of the hunters in the state ( which numbered over 1,000,000 at one time) and they refuse to acknowledge the distant for the agency.
I'm not hunting anymore. Forget it I won't give them a cent... Not after one of their officers lied to my face.

But that's why they are taking all this land, because they know we use it, and because they are broke.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:18 PM   #43
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I did not. I will go back tomorrow, plot the coordinates and post what I find. Thanks.
You don't need to go there!

Just find it on Google Earth and get the coordinates!

Two minutes, max!
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:36 PM   #44
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As it turns out, looks like the exact spot where I was cited is a PA game land. Got the coordinates off Google Earth (thank you Up Hill Bill): 40 46'7.91 N 75 41'37.78 W. Went to the PA game land map portal and found the spot....clearly on game land. Not much else to say at this point.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:41 PM   #45
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To me the issue is that the government uses our money to buy land and then forbids us from using it. People who at they understand and say things similar to "know your place" are enabling them to continue to ban us. If you have to drive across the country to drive off road, the problem isn't trespassers, the problem is the govt.

Thank God that a couple hundred years ago, there wasn't an Internet forum with people to say "Shut up Jefferson, and pay your taxes. Its the law."
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:43 PM   #46
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+1 on that JKASS.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:56 PM   #47
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... Got the coordinates off Google Earth ... 40 46'7.91 N 75 41'37.78 W. ...
Maybe the pile of rocks blocking the encroachment should have been a hint?

Click image for larger version

Name:	Rocks.jpg
Views:	181
Size:	124.1 KB
ID:	347617


Just look at as a $100 lesson. I'll bet that won't happen to you ever again!
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:00 PM   #48
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At this point the question is...why were they waiting and the point of ingress? Is it covered by a camera? Were they hiding in the bush? Is this really a known problem spot for law enforcement? You should be able to get public records of other citations at the same location. As for the LEO's, don't think for a second that they have any discretion; they will not tempt the man with any reason to lower their evaluation or interfere with the mechanisms of entrenched bureaucratic blahbiddy schtuck.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:01 PM   #49
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+1 on that jkass.
x2
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:03 PM   #50
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To me the issue is that the government uses our money to buy land and then forbids us from using it. People who at they understand and say things similar to "know your place" are enabling them to continue to ban us. If you have to drive across the country to drive off road, the problem isn't trespassers, the problem is the govt.

Thank God that a couple hundred years ago, there wasn't an Internet forum with people to say "Shut up Jefferson, and pay your taxes. Its the law."
Where's the 'LIKE' button?


Try the Far Western states! Feds own 89% of Nevada, nearly as much of Arizona, 45% of California and Alaska....

The OP's home state of Pennsylvania is only 2.5% federal land.

Do the 'game land' regulations extend to private lands?
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:06 PM   #51
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Maybe the pile of rocks blocking the encroachment should have been a hint?

Just look at as a $100 lesson. I'll bet that won't happen to you ever again!
It will happen again! Because that's how the game comission is here. If only you lived here to see what's going on. They will probably take more land and "forget to put signs up" again just to get money from unsuspecting off road enthusiasts. It's happened.

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At this point the question is...why were they waiting and the point of ingress? Is it covered by a camera? Were they hiding in the bush? Is this really a known problem spot for law enforcement? You should be able to get public records of other citations at the same location. As for the LEO's, don't think for a second that they have any discretion; they will not tempt the man with any reason to lower their evaluation or interfere with the mechanisms of entrenched bureaucratic blahbiddy schtuck.
They do have cameras. I've seen them. They like to set them up right near the entrances. And they can go on their laptops and see everything in real time. When someone goes by they will call the state police if necessary and all head up to the entrance and wait.....
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:17 PM   #52
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Bill,

The rocks are not there now. The LEO acknowledged that the power company had moved them in the last several months.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:22 PM   #53
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Protest it. The game commission is causing a million problems for us. They have even taken land they didn't have permission to be on... and i mean posted signs up an fined people without the owners permission. If there was a trail that you could drive a jeep on, then there would be signs there.

Back in December they took a huge chunk of land behind my house... Put signs up at every single access point. Really those signs are littering the mountain as much as all the other crap.

They go door to door telling landowners a million things about why to give them their land. But all it is is for money. They get $30-40 per acre that they control.

If you send me a PM I'll tell you everything I know about these guys.

A few months ago one of them pointed a gun in someone's face. They were out riding ATVs in the forest behind my house. The warden was trespassing on the land just as much as the kids were. He got fired....

That same guy told me and all of my friends that the land that I'm standing on right now is game commission land.... Next day I call the owner and he's like "no."

If you see signs obey them. The wardens are VERY meticulous in putting those signs up. They have even driven their four wheelers on single track trails designed for dirtbikes to make their territory. So I'm calling BS on his "their doesn't have to be signs" argument... They will tell you ANYTHING to get you to believe them.... Like car salesmen.

Interesting viewpoint from someone who has experienced this.

I quoted mainly to bump this post from the last post on a page where they are often missed, at least by me......
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:23 PM   #54
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Bill,

The rocks are not there now. The LEO acknowledged that the power company had moved them in the last several months.


You were screwed.

Carefully check your states 'no trespassing' posting codes. It'd be weird if they could just trap you like that!
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:25 PM   #55
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You were screwed.
I forgot that they can take the land underneath pole lines too.... I always thought that that was supposed to be federal land?!?!?!

But there still should have been signs if you were only a hundred yards or so from the road.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:30 PM   #56
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The last time I said that the only thing I hate more than regulations is regulators, I got slammed for living in California, one of the most regulated states. But, I still hate this kind of over authoritarian control of every little detail of our lives. Good thing I live way out in the middle of nowhere where everyone feels the same!
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:34 PM   #57
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Also you get fined for camping on co-op game lands.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:50 PM   #58
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Bill,

The rocks are not there now. The LEO acknowledged that the power company had moved them in the last several months.

I should clarify that when I said there were no signs anywhere, the LEO offered that there had been large rocks blocking the entrance which had been moved by the power company. Not sure how to tell from Google Earth when the image was uploaded but obviously it was taken well before today.

I asked if a reasonable person would've expected such a wide open access to be posted and he came back with the "we can't post everything" comment. They were waiting for me right where the main road met the pole line access. As I was coming down towards the main road, they were driving past the turn off and then must have noticed me and backed up and waited. I really was surprised that I got the citation and was certain the that non-writing LEO thought his partner was being a dick. Whatever - I'll give court a shot and report back in a month or so. Thanks to all for the various viewpoints.
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:04 AM   #59
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Maybe your state laws don't require off limits land to be signed as such.

That said, if they were having so many problems in that specific area, they should have signed it, especially once the road was opened by the power company.

That they waited for you at the exit and issued a ticket, kind of could be construed as entrapment.
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:09 AM   #60
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Apparently being on land that are not supposed to is considered "simple trespassing" if there are no signs present.

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