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Old 09-21-2011, 04:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
That part needs to be bolded and stickied.

I think a lot of non-wheelers get the Rubi because it is the top of line Wrangler...without understanding that they would probably be better off with a LSD on a Sport/Sahara over lockers on a Rubi if the Wrangler will spend 99% of its life on pavement, and the other 1% on gravel driveways.
Did they drop that option for the JK? My TJ Rubi has both LSD and lockers in the rear.

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Old 09-21-2011, 04:11 PM   #32
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My TJ Rubi has both LSD and lockers in the rear.
You sure about that?

I was under the impression it's one or the other--simply as a straight function of mechanics--unless you're talking about some of the new fancy electro magnetic lockers that can behave as both.

In other words, if you've got lockers (TJ, JK, whatever), I thought that meant you didn't have an LSD.

Edit: I could certainly be wrong though, as suggested here.

Edit II: Oh, Jerry said LSD here. I'm definitely wrong.

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Old 09-21-2011, 04:12 PM   #33
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Won't and might are very different. Go with the Rubi, as you might.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:18 PM   #34
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[QUOTE=ShoreWrangler;1590837]I'm not trying to pit Rubicon owner vs Sport/Sahara owners

Just saying I don't want to regret not getting it down the road. I just don't hear too many folks who own a Rubicon saying "I wish I had gotten the Sport instead". The cost difference is not going to break me, I can swing it.

But everyone is right, I certainly don't "need" it. But a couple years from now will I get into off roading and be saying to myself "man, why didn't I just spring for the Rubicon when I could have!" I worry about that regret.

This is tough...[/QUOTE

Another angle: I'm guessing resale value on a slightly modded Rubi is higher than a more-modified Sport...because you never know what life throws at you 1, 3, 5 years down the road.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:24 PM   #35
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You could get the Sport and put a Rubicon sticker on the hood.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:57 PM   #36
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So I've got this problem with some squirrels. I've been thinking of getting a pellet gun to help with this problem. But I keep telling myself, "one day I may go elephant hunting and may need the gun for that". Should I just buy the elephant gun to deal with my squirrels just in case I do go elephant hunting??
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:03 PM   #37
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I had the same controversy as u. Both jeels were at the dealer for me. But i will not be doing any hardcore offroading. Maybe a backroad here or there. There was a higher price for the rubi. So i went with the sport as it will do all i will ever need. I just bought it sunday and freakn luv it.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:12 PM   #38
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As I understand it, the Brake Lock Differential system performs better than the LSD's. It reacts more quickly, and positively than the LSD to slipping.

The LSD does NOT make the Sport or Sahara better than the Rubi in on road traction, from everything I've read, since they all have the BLD system.

The only thing the LSD will do for you in the Wrangler is spare your brake pads somewhat since everytime BLD engages you're wearing out your pads, and BLD won't have to kick in as often with a mechanical LSD, but pads are cheap.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ranjr View Post
So I've got this problem with some squirrels. I've been thinking of getting a pellet gun to help with this problem. But I keep telling myself, "one day I may go elephant hunting and may need the gun for that". Should I just buy the elephant gun to deal with my squirrels just in case I do go elephant hunting??
It's more like:

I have some squirrels to deal with, buy I might go elephant hunting later.

I could buy a pellet gun for $100 and take care of the squirrels, or pay $115 for an elephant gun and take care of anything that comes my way.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by MTH View Post
You sure about that?

I was under the impression it's one or the other--simply as a straight function of mechanics--unless you're talking about some of the new fancy electro magnetic lockers that can behave as both.

In other words, if you've got lockers (TJ, JK, whatever), I thought that meant you didn't have an LSD.

Edit: I could certainly be wrong though, as suggested here.

Edit II: Oh, Jerry said LSD here. I'm definitely wrong.
I don't know if you are wrong.
I was doing some searching and found the opposite info.
But also found some that supported the Rubi having LSD.

I wonder if "BLD" is being called LSD now....or if the Rubi offers both a true LSD AND Lockers. Of course, if the Rubi is running the same Dana 44 and lockers front and rear...one would think that the Rubi could have LSD both front and rear.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:18 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by glowingghoul View Post
As I understand it, the Brake Lock Differential system performs better than the LSD's. It reacts more quickly, and positively than the LSD to slipping.

The LSD does NOT make the Sport or Sahara better than the Rubi in on road traction, from everything I've read, since they all have the BLD system.

The only thing the LSD will do for you in the Wrangler is spare your brake pads somewhat since everytime BLD engages you're wearing out your pads, and BLD won't have to kick in as often with a mechanical LSD, but pads are cheap.
BLD sucks...
I hate it. I wonder how many people turn their traction control off the minute they get into their Jeeps?
Nothing like stepping on the gas, and having your brakes kick in and your engine reduce power.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:20 PM   #42
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BLD is an electronic system that detects slip and applies brake to that wheel to transfer power to the opposite side. It simulates the function of a mechanical LSD, at the cost of extra brake wear. My understanding is that it does that job better than the "real" LSD....at least until the computer or a sensor breaks.

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Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
I don't know if you are wrong.
I was doing some searching and found the opposite info.
But also found some that supported the Rubi having LSD.

I wonder if "BLD" is being called LSD now....or if the Rubi offers both a true LSD AND Lockers. Of course, if the Rubi is running the same Dana 44 and lockers front and rear...one would think that the Rubi could have LSD both front and rear.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:22 PM   #43
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BLD sucks...
I hate it. I wonder how many people turn their traction control off the minute they get into their Jeeps?
Nothing like stepping on the gas, and having your brakes kick in and your engine reduce power.

BLD never turns off, even in 4 lo. How are you disabling it? By the way, the Traction Control System reduced engine power, not the BLD. Traction control can be disabled, unlike BLD.

The vast majority of opinion seems to be that BLD performance is excellent.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:24 PM   #44
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Nothing like stepping on the gas, and having your brakes kick in and your engine reduce power.
lol

Like the JK has this kind of power! Not even the almighty Pentastar.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:25 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
I don't know if you are wrong.
I was doing some searching and found the opposite info.
But also found some that supported the Rubi having LSD.

I wonder if "BLD" is being called LSD now....or if the Rubi offers both a true LSD AND Lockers. Of course, if the Rubi is running the same Dana 44 and lockers front and rear...one would think that the Rubi could have LSD both front and rear.
For the JK, I'm right. Rubis have factory front/rear lockers and do not (and cannot) come with factory LSDs. Sports and Saharas have open diffs, though can be ordered with an LSD rear. All (Rubis included) come with BLD. For the TJ, it was news to me that their Rubi came with lockers and a rear LSD.
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BLD sucks...
I hate it. I wonder how many people turn their traction control off the minute they get into their Jeeps?
Nothing like stepping on the gas, and having your brakes kick in and your engine reduce power.
That's not the BLD, that's the traction control and trailer sway dampening. As of my 2010 manual, you actually cannot turn of the BLD, even if you go through the full blown steering wheel dance to turn off the traction control.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by glowingghoul View Post
BLD is an electronic system that detects slip and applies brake to that wheel to transfer power to the opposite side. It simulates the function of a mechanical LSD, at the cost of extra brake wear. My understanding is that it does that job better than the "real" LSD....at least until the computer or a sensor breaks.
"Traction control applies the brakes and in some cases closes the throttle to minimize wheel spin during acceleration. Traction Control is tuned for on-road activity during normal operation, but reverts to Brake Lock Differential operation during off-road driving." This is from the Jeep "Model Comparison" page

You are correct in that it does try to act like a limit slip dif...but like I said....there is nothing worse than stepping on the gas...and having your brakes kick in, and the engine throttle down. It seems to always happen at the wrong time for me.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:29 PM   #47
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Don't really know about the later years, but

My '08 Rubi diffs, are "open" when not locked !!

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Old 09-21-2011, 05:29 PM   #48
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"Traction control applies the brakes and in some cases closes the throttle to minimize wheel spin during acceleration. Traction Control is tuned for on-road activity during normal operation, but reverts to Brake Lock Differential operation during off-road driving." This is from the Jeep "Model Comparison" page

You are correct in that it does try to act like a limit slip dif...but like I said....there is nothing worse than stepping on the gas...and having your brakes kick in, and the engine throttle down. It seems to always happen at the wrong time for me.
The Traction Control System is NOT the Brake Lock Differential system. They are 2 different things. I was very concerned about the Rubi's lack of an LSD since my wife's JK is on the road 95% of the time, including snow all winter, so I researched this thouroughly before going with the Rubi instead the Sahara w/ lsd

"
The BLD feature on JK uses the brakes to transfer torque across an axle. BLD is active all of the time and is tuned more aggressively when the vehicle is in 4WD Low range. BLD does not slow both wheels on the same axle at the same time. BLD is very helpful when one wheel lifts off the ground or when one wheel is on asphalt and the other is on ice.

TCS is also standard on all JKs. This feature simultaneously reduces engine torque and applies the brakes on any wheels that are slipping or spinning faster than the vehicle speed. TCS is primarily used to prevent instability on slick surfaces. TCS is only active in 2WD and 4WD High range.

When the "ESP OFF" button is pressed and released in 2WD or 4WD High, TCS is disabled. TCS should be disabled if the vehicle is stuck in snow or mud to help clear the tires."
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:31 PM   #49
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For the JK, I'm right. Rubis have factory front/rear lockers and do not (and cannot) come with factory LSDs. Sports and Saharas have open diffs, though can be ordered with an LSD rear. All (Rubis included) come with BLD. For the TJ, it was news to me that their Rubi came with lockers and a rear LSD.


That's not the BLD, that's the traction control and trailer sway dampening. As of my 2010 manual, you actually cannot turn of the BLD, even if you go through the full blown steering wheel dance to turn off the traction control.
You can give this a try...not sure if it works on the newer JK's.

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Old 09-21-2011, 05:31 PM   #50
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My driveway has a good incline to it. One day I was backing up it and my wife happened to be back there. I stabbed at the gas and both rear tires left black marks. She wasn't too impressed but I was. I thought only one tire would have spinner but both did.

Just my observation.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:33 PM   #51
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I thought only one tire would have spinner but both did.
damn you iPhone
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:36 PM   #52
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You can give this a try...not sure if it works on the newer JK's.
It works, but that's not it. The BLD will remain on after you do that procedure.

My 2010 manual describes the BLD as follows:

Traction Control System (TCS)
This system monitors the amount of wheel spin of each of the driven wheels. If wheel spin is detected, brake pressure is applied to the slipping wheel(s) to provide enhanced acceleration and stability. A feature of the TCS system functions similar to a limited slip differential and controls the wheel spin across a driven axle. If one wheel on a driven axle is spinning faster than the other, the system will apply the brake of the spinning wheel. This will allow more engine torque to be applied to the wheel that is not spinning. This feature remains active even if TCS and ESP are in either the “Partial Off” or “Full Off” modes. Refer to “ESP (Electronic Stability Program)” in this section.

Note the bolded language at the end.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:38 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by glowingghoul View Post
The Traction Control System is NOT the Brake Lock Differential system. They are 2 different things. I was very concerned about the Rubi's lack of an LSD since my wife's JK is on the road 95% of the time, including snow all winter, so I researched this thouroughly before going with the Rubi instead the Sahara w/ lsd

"
The BLD feature on JK uses the brakes to transfer torque across an axle. BLD is active all of the time and is tuned more aggressively when the vehicle is in 4WD Low range. BLD does not slow both wheels on the same axle at the same time. BLD is very helpful when one wheel lifts off the ground or when one wheel is on asphalt and the other is on ice.

TCS is also standard on all JKs. This feature simultaneously reduces engine torque and applies the brakes on any wheels that are slipping or spinning faster than the vehicle speed. TCS is primarily used to prevent instability on slick surfaces. TCS is only active in 2WD and 4WD High range.

When the "ESP OFF" button is pressed and released in 2WD or 4WD High, TCS is disabled. TCS should be disabled if the vehicle is stuck in snow or mud to help clear the tires."
I see what you are getting at...but it appears to be the same system. It is TCS in 4H and 2H....and BLD in 4L. Both use the breaks to "adjust" torque...but in 4L, it won't cut engine power....I think.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:42 PM   #54
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I'm not trying to pit Rubicon owner vs Sport/Sahara owners

Just saying I don't want to regret not getting it down the road. I just don't hear too many folks who own a Rubicon saying "I wish I had gotten the Sport instead". The cost difference is not going to break me, I can swing it.

But everyone is right, I certainly don't "need" it. But a couple years from now will I get into off roading and be saying to myself "man, why didn't I just spring for the Rubicon when I could have!" I worry about that regret.

This is tough...
I was originally going to get a Sahara, but when my dealer came in with a deal similar to yours cost wise I decided to spring for the Rubi. While I don't plan on a ton of off roading I certainly will be using it on sand, and with some of the places I typically drive in the winter I decided it was a good choice.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:43 PM   #55
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I see what you are getting at...but it appears to be the same system. It is TCS in 4H and 2H....and BLD in 4L. Both use the breaks to "adjust" torque...but in 4L, it won't cut engine power....I think.
What we're calling the "BLD" is actually part of the TCS system, as noted in the quote from the 2010 manual I posted above.

My understanding is the BLD will apply the brakes to a spinning wheel, thereby giving it resistance and transfering torque back to the wheel with traction--functionally similar to a real LSD.

That will occur in 2H, 4H, or 4L, and cannot be turned off. It won't effect engine power. It comes standard on all JKs, including the Rubicon.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:48 PM   #56
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I see what you are getting at...but it appears to be the same system. It is TCS in 4H and 2H....and BLD in 4L. Both use the breaks to "adjust" torque...but in 4L, it won't cut engine power....I think.
It's very confusing, I know, it took a lot of digging to sort it all out.

TCS can compromise performance for stability, but BLD does not (not any more than a "real" LSD would.).

Since both systems are looking for wheels spinning faster than vehicle speed, I really don't know what makes the TCS kick in vs the BLD.

BLD is a good thing all the time (a spinning wheel with no traction isn't getting you anywhere), while the TCS not so much since it cuts throttle and can apply brake to both wheels on the same axle, taking control away from the driver.

The bottom line is that there's no reason to pass on a Rubicon because it doesn't have an LSD if you're concerned about winter road driving, as BLD does an excellent job.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:59 PM   #57
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I had the same kind of issue in June. I wanted a dark cherry red Sahara or loaded Sport. I wanted most of the options of the Sahara, but I wanted a black top - not a red one. Also wanted Side Airbags. Went with the Rubicon. I love it. I can get 25MPG on expressways if I drive close to 55 MPH. If I drive 60 MPH I get about 20 MPG. At 65 MPH I only get 17 MPG.
I was testing the mileage with my soft top up. I think I get better with the top off, and I have not tried the test with the hard top on. OH Yea - they was another factor for the Rubicon - came with two tops!! GO FOR IT!!
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:02 PM   #58
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BLD is an electronic system that detects slip and applies brake to that wheel to transfer power to the opposite side. It simulates the function of a mechanical LSD, at the cost of extra brake wear. My understanding is that it does that job better than the "real" LSD....at least until the computer or a sensor breaks.
ETC does not simulate LSD. They do two different things and complement one another. LSD gets power to the rear wheel with traction and ESC applies brakes to the wheel that is spinning. In general, for DD, having both is better than just having one.

If you are concerned about your wife in slippery conditions, then an AWD system would probably be better choice than a Wrangler with an open rear diff with her trying to shift to 4HI assuming 4HI is even appropriate for the conditions (and a partially dry and wet road is not appropriate).

The other option is just telling her you've thoroughly researched it, everything will be fine and get the Rubicon. Then to close the deal, you can add that it comes with a fancy recirc ball steering and Ferrari-like brakes.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:13 PM   #59
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ETC does not simulate LSD. They do two different things and complement one another. LSD gets power to the rear wheel with traction and ESC applies brakes to the wheel that is spinning. In general, for DD, having both is better than just having one.

If you are concerned about your wife in slippery conditions, then an AWD system would probably be better choice than a Wrangler with an open rear diff with her trying to shift to 4HI assuming 4HI is even appropriate for the conditions (and a partially dry and wet road is not appropriate).

The other option is just telling her you've thoroughly researched it, everything will be fine and get the Rubicon. Then to close the deal, you can add that it comes with a fancy recirc ball steering and Ferrari-like brakes.
You don't understand what Brake Lock Differential is, or how it functions.

As to the rest, SHE decided she wanted a Wrangler, I was going to surprise her with an Infinity G37X AWD Coupe @$50k, but she found out and was adamant about wanting a Wrangler. I swear.

Me? I'm perfectly happy with my 2011 GC w/Hemi. I wouldn't be crazy about any Wrangler as my DD because I like to drive fast (but I love having one around for playtime).
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:28 PM   #60
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Sorry OP that we derailed your thread....
But this turned out to be interesting.

I've always considered BLD another name for TCS (or ETC, or ESP...or whatever). But they appear to be two similar, yet different systems. My guess is that one kicks in before the other...but I really don't know when.

Hmmmm...
BLD makes more sense for a Sport/Sahara than for a Rubi. In 4L, the Rubi has lockers.... In 2/4H, I would think that TCS would kick in. But maybe BLD kicks in BEFORE TCS.
Now I know why when I shut down TCS, my brake lock would still kick in. I really HATE that thing. Sometimes...when it snows....I just want to do donuts.....and I don't want my brakes kicking in to stop my wheels from spinning.

Sometimes....when there is a patch of ice at a right turn at a red light or a stop sign....I just need a boost of power to get my past that patch....yet TCS/BLD kicks in and cuts my engine power.

Too much nanny crap these days. I love my motorcycle.

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