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Old 08-28-2013, 09:38 AM   #1
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Question It's 1975 all over again. Why?

As mentioned in another post, by 1975 I swore I'd never own another American car as long as I lived. I bought German then Japanese ( including the Suzuki Samari which I dearly loved).

Flash forward 38 years and I decided that Americans had possibly caught up with the times and produced a decent car, and so I bought a 2013 Jeep Wrangler.

Already, with only 4,500 miles I've had to have the center console lid replaced due to crappy engineering of the buttons which control it. ( bad button and knobs were a main feature of American cars in the 70s.)

I also noticed that the soft top latches were cheap pressed steel, that strain under the weight of trying to close a tight new top, almost to the point of bending. All my small Japanese convertibles had massive hinges for tops a fraction of the size of the Wrangler.

I have been reading some of the STUPID issues that Wrangler owners are posting, like: Rear door latches that break off. (what? why? What is this 1973?) and recall after recall.... oil lines and this and that. A Jeep mechanic told me last week that he spent most of 2011 and 2012 replacing HEADS on Jeeps! You have GOT to be kidding me! You all know what the issues are and yet the Wrangler seems to be more popular than ever.

The only thing I can equate this to is either ignorance (count me in that group) or fantasy. Fantasy being people who still buy Harleys, knowing full well that the engineering is below sub par and still 40s. That the cheapest Japanese bike is engineered better than the most expensive Harley. Sorry, it's just a fact.

So is it that same fantasy with Jeep owners? That they harken back to the day when America was strong and Jeep was all iron? That they're trying to re-live the 50s when America led the world? ( That's the same reason that Harley owners have Harleys, the "nostalgia"... the "culture"... the reason to wear leather on weekends.)

Seriously, I know this post will make a lot of people mad, but there HAS to be a reason why people (like Harley people) are willing to spend SO much money on a vehicle that's lost in the 50's engineering-wise. There has been so many issues that , if you couldn't see a calendar, you'd think it was 1973.

Before you answer this post, keep in mind that I still like my Jeep, at least for now. Down the road may be different, we'll see.

So besides the LOOK... and the NAME... what is the justification for this vehicle continuing to be so popular.... or have I already answered my own question?

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Old 08-28-2013, 09:47 AM   #2
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It's a lifestyle. You either get it, or you don't. It's not necessarily about the reliability (which I don't see as a huge problem like you do), but about being about to take the top down, remove the doors, and go anywhere your heart pleases.

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Old 08-28-2013, 09:50 AM   #3
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It's a lifestyle. You either get it, or you don't. It's not necessarily about the reliability (which I don't see as a huge problem like you do), but about being about to take the top down, remove the doors, and go anywhere your heart pleases.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:51 AM   #4
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Ive owned german and now american. I wouldnt trade my 2012 jeep wrangler for anything. I love it to bits. Now my last BMW, dont get me started on the issues i had with that piece of junk. It wasn't a lemon because i looked on the bmw forum and everybody was having the exact same problems as i was.....

My jeep has been trouble free, only little minor things. My dad owned a dodge nitro and it was good, and now he owns a grand cherokee and he loves it!
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:52 AM   #5
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Your Jeep was probably built on a Monday after a holiday weekend. Haven't had any issues with mine now at 13,500 miles!
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:53 AM   #6
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well mine is 50,000km and the only thing it had was a faulty cat converter and a faulty bluetooth module. Other than that it was been a dream!!!!

Both replaced by the dealership with no questions asked
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:53 AM   #7
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Because freedom of choice.


I personally have had no problems with my jeep, reliability wise, and anything I do find to be substandard is replaced, either with a personally fabricated piece or with an aftermarket solution. It's not that difficult.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:55 AM   #8
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Well i responded already on anoher post pretty near the same! All car companies have bad apples!!! Chrysler is no different....are we forgetting the major recall from Toyota? I have owned Audis .. Nissans ..and american muscle and none , i repeat! None are better or best! If you read posts in forums and are expecting that the percentage of all complaints are for all vehicles sold then u are naive. The percentage of vehicles that have issues opposed to those built is very small. Remember people only post when they have a problem! I have including my present 12 have owned 6 jeeps and none of them have had any problems. None! My Audi on the other hand had roof issues so numerous it had to be traded along with electrical. So u can cast aspersions on a car company and try to rationalize it with posts from forums but in my honest opinion they all have lemons. It is how they get dealt with that dictates the companies honor and true worth. I love my jeep and for that matter have loved all the vehicles i have owned but some had more issues than others and i did not see these issues as a reason to stop buying .... Sometimes u just get a lemon!
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:56 AM   #9
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Or, maybe you just got unlucky enough to get a POS. I've never bought anything BUT American vehicles (aside from my time stationed in Japan I had five of those POS's in the 5 years I was there) and I've never had problems with any of them. Even as a kid my Dad only bought American cars (a lot of them made by AMC) and they were just fine (well, my first car WAS a '77 Gremlin and that wasn't cool).

Aside from the heritage, culture, comraderie, ease of customization, RELIABILITY, off road capability, massive aftermarket support, and chicks digging Jeeps, I don't know why we're so stuck on our American made Jeeps. Maybe stubborn American pride?
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:57 AM   #10
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The good thing with the Jeep Wrangler is also the aftermarket parts. There are sooooooooooo many parts available. Ive spent several hours looking at aftermarket parts for my jeep and i still have alot more to look at!

Other Jeep owners is another plus!!!
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:01 AM   #11
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and chicks digging Jeeps
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:10 AM   #12
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Well, you should have bought a TJ if you wanted the interior not to fall apart (there isn't any to fall apart). And all vehicles have their problems. The difference being what goes wrong and when... American vehicles feel so cheap inside when compared to a German car, but everything will rattle eventually. Not to mention the tolerances/materials required to meet emission standards now pretty much result in engineered failure.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:14 AM   #13
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n00g7, i see you have a bmw in your avatar picture. What are your thoughts on the e92? I had a very close mate who owned one and sold it after 15,000km because the "quality" wasn't there. Things like the leather seats wearing out and ripping, plastic parts in the engine bay breaking etc etc...
How was yours? I had the E39 5 series and that was a massive headache. Abs module failed, complete cooling system fail, water pump fail, all the seals and gaskets were failing the list went on and on
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:17 AM   #14
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I've seen more Jeeps and Ram pickups with 500,000 or more miles on the odo than any Japanese vehicles. And it's a well known fact that European vehicles are the worst on the planet for reliability. The point is that there is no such thing as "foreign quality". All vehicles share faults and high points.

I've owned dozens of vehicles. My Chryslers as a whole have been the most dependable and reliable I've ever owned. My 2011 and 2012 Wranglers being the worst of the bunch quality wise. Both of them had very expensive repairs done under warranty. The overall quality of the JK sucks..but they are selling them faster than they can make them which contributes to poor quality. Like has been said though, the Wrangler is a niche vehicle. It's not a "car" and it's not made to be practical. It's made to be an offroad beast and a very utilitarian vehicle. You either get it or you don't.

If you buy foreign thinking you're getting a better vehicle, then you're a fool. Toyota is issuing recalls weekly. They just recalled a quarter million pickup trucks again last week. My wife has had two MINI Coopers (BMW) and they are both garbage. Both going to the shop in the first 12 months for repairs/recalls. There's no such thing as a perfect vehicle.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #15
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So, buried in that long philosophical post, your point is that jeeps are junk because you had to have your center console lid replaced and your soft top latches look like they might bend?
Go to toyotas forum, guess what they ill talk about, ask a Honda service guy what he does all day...bet he services new Hondas...
Point is, a minor interior problem and hearing about other problems isa far cry from 1975.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #16
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I would recommend not looking under the Jeep if you have these complaints now!

The rust, oh my god the rust!
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:21 AM   #17
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Here is your only choice if you want a Japanese Jeep. Have fun with that!

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Old 08-28-2013, 10:22 AM   #18
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n00g7, i see you have a bmw in your avatar picture. What are your thoughts on the e92? I had a very close mate who owned one and sold it after 15,000km because the "quality" wasn't there. Things like the leather seats wearing out and ripping, plastic parts in the engine bay breaking etc etc...
How was yours? I had the E39 5 series and that was a massive headache. Abs module failed, complete cooling system fail, water pump fail, all the seals and gaskets were failing the list went on and on

I'm on my 3rd. E46 325i, E60 550i, and now an E90 M3. Depends what trim level you get as far as the leather goes. Mine looks and drives brand new with 40k on the clock. Once I hit the end of the warranty period I buy a 3rd party extended covering electronics, engine, tranny. Because I take to the track, I'm really not concerned about the same things other people are. But, in general, the M series vehicles are of much higher quality. The older vehicles have some pretty expensive systems that fail, but if you take the time to buy the non-BMW branded oem parts/aftermarket parts and take to a 3rd party mech it's not really that bad. We also have a better warranty period here in the US; 4 yr 50k. Extended 3rd party takes you to 6 yr 70k for about 2-3k. Once I hit 6 years I drive until something bad looks about to go wrong and trade in for a new (used) one. I buy 1-2 years old and own for 5-7. Nothing drives like an M so I'm not getting rid of anytime soon.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:22 AM   #19
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Any car can rust in the right enviroment......
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:23 AM   #20
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I'm on my 3rd. E46 325i, E60 550i, and now an E90 M3. Depends what trim level you get as far as the leather goes. Mine looks and drives brand new with 40k on the clock. Once I hit the end of the warranty period I buy a 3rd party extended covering electronics, engine, tranny. Because I take to the track, I'm really not concerned about the same things other people are. But, in general, the M series vehicles are of much higher quality. The older vehicles have some pretty expensive systems that fail, but if you take the time to buy the non-BMW branded oem parts/aftermarket parts and take to a 3rd party mech it's not really that bad. Nothing drives like an M so I'm not getting rid of anytime soon.
Thats just proof that there are good one and lemons!
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #21
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I have a 12' Unlimited Sahara with over 27,500 miles on it and I have had ZERO issues with mine. No leaks no rattle nothing! And I agree with it being a lifestyle choice. I bought mine to enjoy the outdoors and to go camping and some occasional wheeling

I know friends that have had $60K + BMW's and Infinity's and they have had issues also. NO manufacturer is free from defects.

Sounds to me like you don't really 'Love' your Jeep the way most of us on here do. I will ALWAYS have a Jeep in my garage till the day I die.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #22
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I have owned German (VW) and had nothing but problems(water pump broke twice within 20,000 miles, car overheated etc., CV boots had to be changed every 10,000 miles). I have owned Japanese (Acura) and had nothing but problems (crappy engineering, cheap plastic used as windshield molding, brakes had recall because they had to be replaced after less than 10,000 miles). I think you can have issues with any vehicle. I have always wanted a Jeep and I love the vehicle (and I am German native). The 2013 JKU I bought was the best purchase ever.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:31 AM   #23
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The best solution is to have a BMW to drive when it rains and a jeep to drive when it's not. You can guess which one gets more use in CA .
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:54 AM   #24
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As mentioned in another post, by 1975 I swore I'd never own another American car as long as I lived. I bought German then Japanese ( including the Suzuki Samari which I dearly loved).

Flash forward 38 years and I decided that Americans had possibly caught up with the times and produced a decent car, and so I bought a 2013 Jeep Wrangler.

Already, with only 4,500 miles I've had to have the center console lid replaced due to crappy engineering of the buttons which control it. ( bad button and knobs were a main feature of American cars in the 70s.)

I also noticed that the soft top latches were cheap pressed steel, that strain under the weight of trying to close a tight new top, almost to the point of bending. All my small Japanese convertibles had massive hinges for tops a fraction of the size of the Wrangler.

I have been reading some of the STUPID issues that Wrangler owners are posting, like: Rear door latches that break off. (what? why? What is this 1973?) and recall after recall.... oil lines and this and that. A Jeep mechanic told me last week that he spent most of 2011 and 2012 replacing HEADS on Jeeps! You have GOT to be kidding me! You all know what the issues are and yet the Wrangler seems to be more popular than ever.

The only thing I can equate this to is either ignorance (count me in that group) or fantasy. Fantasy being people who still buy Harleys, knowing full well that the engineering is below sub par and still 40s. That the cheapest Japanese bike is engineered better than the most expensive Harley. Sorry, it's just a fact.

So is it that same fantasy with Jeep owners? That they harken back to the day when America was strong and Jeep was all iron? That they're trying to re-live the 50s when America led the world? ( That's the same reason that Harley owners have Harleys, the "nostalgia"... the "culture"... the reason to wear leather on weekends.)

Seriously, I know this post will make a lot of people mad, but there HAS to be a reason why people (like Harley people) are willing to spend SO much money on a vehicle that's lost in the 50's engineering-wise. There has been so many issues that , if you couldn't see a calendar, you'd think it was 1973.

Before you answer this post, keep in mind that I still like my Jeep, at least for now. Down the road may be different, we'll see.

So besides the LOOK... and the NAME... what is the justification for this vehicle continuing to be so popular.... or have I already answered my own question?
There is no facts in your post, maybe 1. Maybe your small Japanese imports had large roof latches, but I am not sure.

Toyota, Honda, and Acura made up the bulk of recalls for 2012.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:59 AM   #25
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Ok I have owned Porsche, BMW, Mini and Land rover (Disco).
-Porsche too expensive to maintain ($1000 ever 6 months for tires and no that was just normal driving) - top had to be replaced after 3 weeks, door panels had to be replaced.
-BMW Poor weld joints in the door constant rattles had to have foam shot into the doors. Rack and pinion had to be replaced, computer had to be replaced after 1 year.
-Mini Cooper S Coupe JCW - whole front end had to be replace at 12K miles including the rack and pinion. Constant rattles.
-Land Rover -- where to begin... I dont think that a automotive dealer could try harder to have oil leak from every opening. constant rattles -- but it was very reliable .. always rattled and always leaked oil-- but it never left me stranded.
Jeep-Burping issue and thats it at 14K Nothing else so

I am not sure if your argument is valid.
I think that we need to take a step back and say that these are mechanical devices and they will fail-- however I can tell you that I am completely satisfied with my Jeep -- it is comfortable and reliable... and as it gets older I completely anticipate that it will rattle more just like my bones.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:03 AM   #26
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I agree about the soft top latches are a friggin' joke. No probs with the console tho!
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:03 AM   #27
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Here is your only choice if you want a Japanese Jeep. Have fun with that!

I'd wheel it
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:04 AM   #28
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I've found that a bangin stereo system solves any and all rattles.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:08 AM   #29
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Yeah posts like this drive me nuts sometimes. Jeep is just as much an Italian car company as it is an "American" one. All car companies today are in bed together in one way or another, and all have their share of problems.

Why choose a Jeep?

1. I love that in 2013 I can still lift up my hood and install/work on my own stuff. I also have a 2004 Acura and I never open the hood. And that is a 9 year old car. I can't even fit my hands in to change the shocks and struts.

2. Its the only game in town. Unless you want a Land Rover D 90 or Suzuki, the Jeep is the only convertible vehicle you can take the doors off, and hit the Rubicon trail - right out of the box.

Yeah issues can be frustrating (I have ranted on here myself) but in the end, it is a great vehicle with an amazing pedigree and history. I am proud to own one. Even if I won the powerball tomorrow, I don't think I would drive anything else.

Who else can say THAT!?

Scott
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:19 AM   #30
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I'd wheel it

...off a cliff!

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