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Old 11-22-2011, 08:28 AM   #1
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Jeep/Chyrsler's response to my questions:

As you know, I've been holding out for Winter Chill on a standard Sahara...and have also been quite vocal on the reduced towing capicity for the 2012 auto's with a 3.21 axle. I've emailed Chrysler a couple of times...and here is the latest response.
I can only shake my head:
(As an FYI, I had pointed out that the Chrysler Fleet Buyer's guide shows Winter Chill available in all models)

-------------------
Dear Mark:

Thank you for your email.

The information that I have on the 2012 Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, and Ram
vehicles is only for the U.S. retail market. If you are a fleet
customer, I would strongly advise speaking to a fleet specialist as
fleets of vehicles do have some different options.

For the U.S. retail market, the Winter Chill exterior paint color is not
available on any other Jeep Wrangler model besides the 2012 Jeep
Wrangler Sahara Artic Edition and the 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
Sahara Artic Edition. Also as per our information and the owner's
manual, the towing capacity and available transmission/engine/and rear
axle ratio combinations are correct. At this time Chrysler Group LLC
does not offer a 3.21 rear axle ratio paired with an automatic
transmission for the 2012 Jeep Wrangler and 2012 Wrangler Unlimited
models within the U.S. retail market.

Please keep in mind that although other models offer the same
transmission, engine, and a numerically lower rear axle ratio, there are
powertrain and weight differences between the vehicles across the board,
that would affect the towing capacity for each vehicle.

If you wish to verify any of this information, my best suggestion would
be to speak with your preferred Jeep dealership for further assistance.

For more information on the 2012 Jeep Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited
models, including pricing, incentives, dealer locations, as well many
more shopping tools, please visit the links provided below:

2012 Wrangler | Trail Rated 4x4 Sports Utility Vehicle | Jeep.com
2012 Wrangler Unlimited |4 door 4x4 SUV | Jeep.com

If you are inquiring about a fleet of vehicles, I would advise speaking
with an Fleet Specialist within the Chrysler Group LLC Fleet Department.
This department can be contacted at [COLOR= ]1-800-999-3533[/COLOR] between the hours of
8:00 AM and 8:00 PM EST, Monday through Friday.

If you have further questions, please feel free to reply to this email.
You may also call us on our toll-free number at [COLOR= ]1-800-964-0600[/COLOR]. When you
call, I can connect you directly to our Chrysler Group LLC Fleet
department, providing your call is during the hours of operation and you
are a fleet customer.

Thank you again for your email, Mark. Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Megan
Jeep Product Information Center
-----------------------

So I guess I should speak to a fleet specialist about Winter Chill in a standard Sahara....and it is news to me that a 3.21 axle isn't on a 2012 Wrangler with an auto transmission.


One item I have noticed is that I don't see 2000 pounds listed as the max towing capacity for the unlimited 3.21 auto anymore (now that the Jeep sight as been updated). It simply shows 3500 pounds "when properly equipped" (3.73?). I've now twice asked for confirmation for the tow rating on a JKU auto 3.21's, and have not had a straight answer. I tried to point out that the owners manual was incorrect (because it does not show the 3.21 auto combo)...and was simply told that said combination does not exist.


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Old 11-22-2011, 08:41 AM   #2
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Yeah especially since I test drove a 2012 automatic with 3.21

amazing they don't even know their own product

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Old 11-22-2011, 08:42 AM   #3
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What they are saying is that the 3.21 and auto trans isn't available on the unlimted only. Is that not correct? If you're so concerned about the towing capacity, why don't you just get the 3.73 gears and be done with it?
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
What they are saying is that the 3.21 and auto trans isn't available on the unlimted only. Is that not correct? If you're so concerned about the towing capacity, why don't you just get the 3.73 gears and be done with it?
She stated both the Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited are not available with 3.21's and an auto.

I want the 3.21's for fuel economy...and the trailer that I own is a light duty trailer used to tow motorcycles and such. But if I ever need to tow something heavier (GF's parents boat), I don't want to have to worry about liability in case something happens. There is no reason why a 4 door 2012 auto with 3.21's should be capped at 2000 pounds (instead of 3500).

Well...I should say "were" capped at 2000 pounds...but now they now longer exist....I guess....
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:05 AM   #5
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Whether you feel there isn't a reason isn't the point. There is not a significant fuel savings between the two gear ratio's to be making this big of a deal. You will definitely feel the vehicle laboring under a heavier load with the higher (numerically lower) ratio, which will totally negate the small fuel savings you were looking for anyway.

5 years down the road you may decide you want larger tires and then you will be kicking yourself. There is no downside to the 3.73 gears.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:26 AM   #6
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It is highly likely that the 3.21's will not get as good of economy as the 3.73's due to the engine not being in it best part of the power curve. Lugging is not good and then sometimes the transmission will shift down thus putting the engine at higher rpm's than it would be with the 3.73's. I have had numerous vehicles that got better mileage by going to a low gear ratio (higher number), but within reason. I would not suggest that 5.38's would be a step towards better fuel economy.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:27 AM   #7
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Panthermark and I got into the gearing debate a while ago during the height of the hype of the 3.6's debut. Right around when Up Hill Bill was ordering his Rubi with 3.73s.

My recollection is that panthermark had pretty elaborate math formulas and driving considerations through which he had determined that numerically lower gears are the best choice for him. I think it's crazy and would never opt for gears that place the Jeep at a disadvantage with regard to the engine's own powerband, but he's educated and adamant on the topic.

In my view, he's misguided. But he and UHB understand the issues and made their choices. Though it looks to be a moot point now--unless he's willing to abandon the Wrangler altogether or go with a manual trans, he's getting the 3.73s.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:46 AM   #8
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I think I would consider the 3.21 if it were a 2 door, but the 4 door is a lot bigger and heavier. I think for a 4 door I would not go any lower that 3.73

Daggo is right, the disadvantages of the 3.21 with the 4-door outweigh the advantages
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoreWrangler
I think I would consider the 3.21 if it were a 2 door, but the 4 door is a lot bigger and heavier. I think for a 4 door I would not go any lower that 3.73

Daggo is right, the disadvantages of the 3.21 with the 4-door outweigh the advantages

I drove a 4 door sport Saturday to check out the 3.21. Whoa what a slug, on the interstate with a little head wind it did not want to go, it would be 3.73's for me at a minimum.
Also my past experience says to expect around 15 mpg with a Heep. And from what I am seeing on here and hearing, that is about right. You have to plan on horrible gas mileage if you are planning on driving a Heep.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:28 AM   #10
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I didn't want this to turn into a gearing debate, I was just pointing out that the information given to me was incorrect when I inquired about the tow ratings.

3.21's are available on the 2012 auto's...but the person I was dealing with does not seem to understand that. But I can't blame her. The 2012 Jeep Wrangler Service manual does not show an auto available for the 3.21's neither. Poor quality.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:47 AM   #11
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"If you wish to verify any of this information, my best suggestion would
be to speak with your preferred Jeep dealership for further assistance."



I really think this suggestion that they said to you was done so for a reason and I could not agree more. If you are seriously interested in purchasing a new Jeep, maybe you should sit down with a dealer and have them explain what they can do for you and address and verify your concerns.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutSafari View Post
"If you wish to verify any of this information, my best suggestion would
be to speak with your preferred Jeep dealership for further assistance."


I really think this suggestion that they said to you was done so for a reason and I could not agree more. If you are seriously interested in purchasing a new Jeep, maybe you should sit down with a dealer and have them explain what they can do for you and address and verify your concerns.
I went to a Jeep dealership and spoke with a sales person two months ago. I ended up arguing with one of the guys about Sahara Tan...he tried to tell me that Sahara Tan was never released for the 2012's (as I tried to explain to him that it was availble for short time). I was not thrilled.

All in all I've spoken to, or emailed (through truecar) at least, 5 different sales people regarding the color availability. I'm off today, and I just called another dealer to see if a Black Forest Green Wrangler hit the lot today so I can go check out the color in person since no one knows if Winter Chill will be released for the non-Arctics. Indeed I'm serious...but I would also like accurate information.

Now...the question on the tow rating is separate but farily simple...."exactly what is it?"....and it is something that I don't want from a salesperson. This info needs to come from Chrysler...as exceeding a tow limit could impact warranty claims, insurance claims, and the law itself.

Page 474 of the 2012 owners manual lists the tow ratings...how they (Jeep) forgot to include 3.21's for the auto's is beyond me. My assumption is that the 2011 table was used...and if that is the case, are the ratings listed correct? A salesperson will not be able to answer that.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:37 PM   #13
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You are borderline close to being one of those customers that the Dealership says "go find another dealer".

You've created your own reality, and you refuse to let go of it no matter how many people try to shed more light on the subject for you.

If I were the dealer's general manager, I'd politely suggest that you would probably be a better fit at [insert competitor dealership I don't really get along with here].

If you're this much of a know-it-all Chrysler design engineer now, they will grow to hate you back in the service department once you purchase this mythical Unicorn edition Sahara.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:40 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
She stated both the Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited are not available with 3.21's and an auto.

I want the 3.21's for fuel economy.........
May I suggest that the 3.21 axle ratio may actually give you worse fuel economy than the 3.73 ratio.

Theoretically, the 3.21 ratio will give better fuel economy, but that is on the highway with a flat road, steady speed, no headwinds, etc. For any type of trailer towing, hills, headwinds, stop and go driving, etc., I think the 3.73 ratio will actually give you better fuel mileage when compared to a 3.21.

The 3.73 allows the engine to run in a more efficient RPM band, and gives you more power for hills, headwinds, starting from a dead stop (city driving), etc.

With a 3.21 ratio, the engine will work harder overcoming any of the above driving conditions.

I would strongly suggest a 3.73 ratio.

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:03 PM   #15
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He has asked a question and he received a wrong answer. I understand the frustration. I own a 3.21 JK auto that Chrysler says does not exist. BTW, I am very happy with it. If I am towing something, I simply limit the transmission to 4th speed.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:13 PM   #16
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You are borderline close to being one of those customers that the Dealership says "go find another dealer".

You've created your own reality, and you refuse to let go of it no matter how many people try to shed more light on the subject for you.

If I were the dealer's general manager, I'd politely suggest that you would probably be a better fit at [insert competitor dealership I don't really get along with here].

If you're this much of a know-it-all Chrysler design engineer now, they will grow to hate you back in the service department once you purchase this mythical Unicorn edition Sahara.
You simply missed the point. Getting incorrect information is bad, bad, bad. Yes, I would raise a fit with a dealer if they were giving me bad information.
3.21's are standard on all 2012 Sports and Saharas...for both autos and sticks. Pointing out that the towing information is missing from the owners manual (for the 2012 auto with 3.21's) and being told such a combination does not exist is jaw dropping. At some point, Jeep will have to update the owners manual (in the same way that early 2012 manuals still listed the 3.8 engine). I guess I can assume 3500 (for the 4 door), I just wish it was confirmed (which is what I had originally asked for).
--------
As for the 3.21's vs the 3.73's....I went back and forth between the two for a long time....but the highway mpg is hyper important to me...and it seems like the 3.21's have an edge there. Outside of that, I concede that 3.73's seem like a better choice everywhere else. It just comes down to my particular needs. (No mods, light towing, DD, highway driving, very limited trailing....basically a mall crawler. A GC would probably be better....but the top does not come off without a blowtorch.)
-----------

It's raining outside...but a dealer in Downers Grove has shown a 2 door BFG in transit for about 4 days now. I'm going to head over there and hope that is has been delivered so I can see it up close. If I like it...it will come down that tha
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:24 PM   #17
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I gotta agree with the folks saying just get the 3.73 gear. 3.21 is just not enough gear for a vehicle with 32" tall tires and a high strung v6, regardless of transmission. Then to think you're going to be able to tow with that kind of gear ratio is borderline crazy, no offense.
For the record, I have gotten 24mpg highway with my 3.8 Automatic 2 door, hand calculated, and repeated numerous times. If you're that concerned with mileage, maybe think about reviewing and changing your driving habits.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:25 PM   #18
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It is entirely possible that they have stopped producing the 3.21 for automatic. Note that they said "at this time." Back in 2007 the automatic only came with 4.10 at one point. Things do change. FWIW the 2 door is only rated at 1000lbs towing with 3.21 and the 4 door at 2000lbs.

You are being overly anal about your MPG. You're going to range between 18 and 22 mpg. The difference between that isn't worth getting your panties all bunched up.

Buy a used 4 banger compact to use on long trips to offset your cost if it's that big of a concern. Going with 3.21 gears to save 1/2 to 1 mpg when you're not towing and losing 4-5mpg when you are towing is just foolish IMO.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:36 PM   #19
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You simply missed the point. Getting incorrect information is bad, bad, bad. Yes, I would raise a fit with a dealer if they were giving me bad information.
3.21's are standard on all 2012 Sports and Saharas...for both autos and sticks. Pointing out that the towing information is missing from the owners manual (for the 2012 auto with 3.21's) and being told such a combination does not exist is jaw dropping. At some point, Jeep will have to update the owners manual (in the same way that early 2012 manuals still listed the 3.8 engine). I guess I can assume 3500 (for the 4 door), I just wish it was confirmed (which is what I had originally asked for).
--------
As for the 3.21's vs the 3.73's....I went back and forth between the two for a long time....but the highway mpg is hyper important to me...and it seems like the 3.21's have an edge there. Outside of that, I concede that 3.73's seem like a better choice everywhere else. It just comes down to my particular needs. (No mods, light towing, DD, highway driving, very limited trailing....basically a mall crawler. A GC would probably be better....but the top does not come off without a blowtorch.)
-----------

It's raining outside...but a dealer in Downers Grove has shown a 2 door BFG in transit for about 4 days now. I'm going to head over there and hope that is has been delivered so I can see it up close. If I like it...it will come down that tha

Correction, you're missing the point. Manufacturers have made design/option availability changes since mass production began. It is not unusual for a manufacturer to change availability at any point during a model year for a variety of reasons. Parts availability, profitability, market demand, etc.

Add on top of that you've got multiple, very knowledgeable, Jeepers on here that are telling you that you would almost certainly be better off without the gearing you're stomping your feet over.

All I am trying to tell you is that you're being so overbearing and closed-minded about it, you're reaching a point where the dealership is just going to take a pass on you as a customer. Which is an impressive feat, considering how much they like to sell vehicles.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:00 PM   #20
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It is entirely possible that they have stopped producing the 3.21 for automatic. Note that they said "at this time." Back in 2007 the automatic only came with 4.10 at one point. Things do change. FWIW the 2 door is only rated at 1000lbs towing with 3.21 and the 4 door at 2000lbs.

You are being overly anal about your MPG. You're going to range between 18 and 22 mpg. The difference between that isn't worth getting your panties all bunched up.

Buy a used 4 banger compact to use on long trips to offset your cost if it's that big of a concern. Going with 3.21 gears to save 1/2 to 1 mpg when you're not towing and losing 4-5mpg when you are towing is just foolish IMO.
Don't feel like typing so I'm definately with this. They probably dropped that combination. I would also suggest the 3.73 for your needs.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:51 PM   #21
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Here is a link to a dealer near me. They have 4 Unlimiteds on the lot....with 3 of them being Arctic Editions.....so we know they are recent builds. All 4 are autos with 3.21 axles.

River Front Chrysler Jeep Dodge new Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ram cars, trucks, minivans and SUV inventory
(Here are the three Arctic's...the 3rd one has the standard trailer tow package...with 3.21's)
Details and pictures on a new vehicle, from River Front Chrysler Jeep Dodge in North Aurora, IL, 60542.
Details and pictures on a new vehicle, from River Front Chrysler Jeep Dodge in North Aurora, IL, 60542.
Details and pictures on a new vehicle, from River Front Chrysler Jeep Dodge in North Aurora, IL, 60542.



So...we know they exist...and I doubt is Chrysler has stopped making them in the last few weeks or so. And even if they did...it still does not answer the simple question.

WHAT IS THE TOW RATING FOR THOSE VEHICLES?


There are a ton of 3.21's out there...it is the new standard for 2012. The far majority of Sahara's I look up have 3.21's. I understand the argument for 3.73's....I didn't want this to be a gearing thread.
------------------------------

OK...let my try this from a different angle....
-----------------------------

Hi guys...I saw a couple of sweet 4 door auto Arctic Edition's on a lot near me...and I want to get one. However, they have 3.21's and the tow rating isn't clear.

Can anyone here tell me what the tow rating is? It isn't located in the owners manaul...and when I contacted Jeep, they told me such a combination does not exist.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:06 PM   #22
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If you're that concerned with mileage, maybe think about reviewing and changing your driving habits.
Or, opening a spreadsheet to set up a budget sheet to see where your money is going. I've done this for years, so in planning this, I had to raise the gas bill over 50% ($60/mo to $90+/mo) during months when I'm not traveling and see if I could live with this before buying the LJ. I had to take away money from something else to fund the extra gas, and I made it work.

Another thing you could do is find a higher-paying job.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:32 PM   #23
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Maybe this answers your question.

http://www.media.chrysler.com/dcxms/...nltd_Specs.pdf
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:48 PM   #24
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I'll be the one to say it:

Don't buy a Jeep.

You are not yet ready.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:57 PM   #25
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And did you notice it says to factor in 150 pounds for the driver?

And Strider, what do you mean not to buy the Jeep if you're not ready for it?
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:50 PM   #26
Really liking the Jeep...

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I meant that the OP was so hung up on one issue that it seems to be wrecking the experience and souring it up for them.
If your head and heart aren't clear you aren't ready is what I'm saying.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:00 PM   #27
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Ahh...yes...thank you.
I knew I had seen 2000 pounds somewhere else...but I could not remember where. The old Jeep website used to say 2000 pounds for the 3.21 auto's, but after the site update...it no longer split out 2000 pounds for the 3.21's...it just states 3500 max....and I was unsure if Jeep had revised their numbers or not.

I had always thought the numbers should be higher and that was what I was trying to get confirmation of when I was told that such a Jeep never existed....which of course just made me even more frustraded.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:03 PM   #28
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FWIW the 2 door is only rated at 1000lbs towing with 3.21 and the 4 door at 2000lbs.

^^^ You DID see it somewhere else. Thread #18.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:18 PM   #29
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Everything I see says 3,500 pound towing with tow option. I don't see where it dfferentiates between 3.21 and 3.73???
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ShoreWrangler View Post
Everything I see says 3,500 pound towing with tow option. I don't see where it dfferentiates between 3.21 and 3.73???
The current/new Jeep website shows everything at 3500 (max) for the unlimiteds...and does not differentiate between axle ratio or transmission.

The site also mixes up Trailer tow and Max Tow. (Another page shows that trailer tow comes with 3.73's...when we know it is Max tow which comes with 3.73's)
Towing,

Look to the far right, and you will see it states "Trailer Tow" comes with 3.73's.....which is incorrect.
2012 Wrangler Unlimited | Towing Capability and Towing Capacity | Jeep

The 2012 Wrangler Unlimited Media guide shows a 2000 pound max for 3.21's (both manual and auto) and 3500 for 3.73 and 4.10's regardless of tranny.
http://www.media.chrysler.com/dcxms/...nltd_Specs.pdf

The 2012 Wrangler owners manual shows a 1000 pound max for an Unlimited MANUAL with 3.21's...and does not list an auto with 3.21's all. All other combinations are at 3500 pounds.
You can download here (page 474)
My Jeep: Jeep Owners Service Manuals - 4x4 SUVs, Sports Utility Vehicles, Off Road

Basically, the numbers are all over the board depending on which source you use...and I just wanted someone at Jeep to clarify. 2012 Unlimited auto with 3.21's...what is the tow rating? I didn't expect to be told it didn't exist.

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