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Old 01-14-2012, 08:37 PM   #1
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JK Steering / ABS Issue

A tech question for anyone who can offer assistance...

I run Maxxis Bighorn 33" Mud Terrains on 17" Ultra wheels. I recently installed a 3.25" Rough Country suspension lift as well as a matching steering stablizer. The instructions clearly & boldlyindicated that, when installing the sway bar links in the front, to ensure the steering was straight, otherwise you would get a traction control error on the dash. I eyeballed it best I could and got what, I thought, was pretty darn straight. However, about a week after the install, I began getting the ESP/ABS warning lights on the dash. I disconnected the sway bar links and tried to re-align the steering, then replaced them again - no change. Today, I got a front end alignment done. I only drove it 2 miles back home and noted that the warning lights were still on.

Question: Do I need to disconnect the battery to "reset" the lights? Or could there be a different issue at work here?

Thank you for your time...

Ron

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Old 01-14-2012, 09:30 PM   #2
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Disconnecting the sway links won't fix the steering.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

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Old 01-14-2012, 10:19 PM   #3
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Yeah, swaybar links have nothing to do with it, I think the instructions may be written a little vague.

Main point is when installing the lift, the diff will pull to one side due to the trackbar angle increase. When you put the adjustable trackbar on to push the diff back to centre the draglink needs to be lengthened to compensate. Steering wheel should be centred when driving straight on flat road. There is a lot of talk about it having to be within a degree or two of perfect, I can not see how this can be done, especially when mine from new had about inch to inch and a half of freeplay in the steering.

Mine is as close to dead straight as it can be on perfectly flat surfaces, but on a normal road with the camber to assist rain runoff I have to turn the wheel about an inch to the right to drive straight. Likewise though, on an off camber stretch of road I have to turn the wheel an inch to the left (this is in a RHD vehicle, so yours would be opposite).

The main point of this exercise is the 'clock spring' in the steering column. This is a sensor to tell the computer the steering wheel direction in comparison to the g-force sensors that tell the computer which way the vehicle is turning. If it detects enough of a difference between the direction the steering wheel is telling the vehicle to go and the direction the vehicle is going according to the g-force sensors then the traction control indicator will light up and you would notice a decrease in power and possibly even braking to reduce speed and rollover possibility.

That of course is in an ideal world...

If your steering wheel is pretty damn close to dead straight and the lights are still coming on, then its most likely a fault. Most common faults that cause this are the ABS speed sensors in the wheel being either faulty or full of mud, or the steering position sensor (clock spring) going faulty. In my case it was the clock spring - replaced under warranty.

When my clock spring failed though, I had the ABS and traction control lights on, as well as the ESP Disabled message on the dash.

Only way to find out definitely unfortunately is to hook it up to the diagnostics computer - mine recorded 3 instances of fault indication in the clock spring.

EDIT: you havent mentioned what year your is though - on the earlier models (2007 and poss 2008) the ESP system was too sensitive and detected issues with lifts installed - there was a computer reflash to rectify this.

EDIT 2: Just noticed from your Jeep Profile yours is a 2007 Sahara - so this may be your problem. Easiest way to find out, try the steering wheel / button pushing dance to turn off the ESP completely, as this only came available with the reflash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daves Disable Notes
Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature:
a. Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the “Park” position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear.
b. Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete.
c. Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position and ensure parking brake is firmly set.
d. Turn the steering wheel until it is centred and the wheels are pointed straight ahead.
e. Turn the steering wheel one-half (˝) turn to the right (clockwise).
f. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds exactly then release and wait for chime.
g. Turn the steering wheel back to centre, then continue turning the steering wheel one-half (˝) turn to the left (counter clockwise).
h. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds exactly, release and wait for chime.
i. Turn the steering wheel back to centre.
j. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds, release and wait for chime.
k. Cycle the ignition switch to the “OFF” position.

If successfully completed, ESP OFF will display on the dash every time you start the vehicle.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:09 PM   #4
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First, did you install a front adjustable track bar with your lift to center the axles? It sounds like you need to re-center your steering wheel. An AEV Procal works best for this but you can adjust the drag link through trial and error until the ESP/ABS lights go out.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:47 PM   #5
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Just looked up the instruction for that lift, it doesnt appear to come with an adjustable front track bar. Also if you followed the instructions to the letter, it does not tell you to loosen all control arm bolts and retorque to correct settings once the vehicle is back on the ground under its full weight to reset the bushes to a new neutral position (VERY IMPORTANT). It also fails to mention what the torque settings are for the track bar bolts.

Not a very comprehensive instruction manual. However, it does mention the drag link to be adjusted (twice just to make sure you were listening!) but it doesnt mention before sway bar links are installed, I think that was something you read into it.

Also in the section below it on the rough country web site it mentions "Recommended Accessories" - this should have a front adjustable track bar as the first listing for an over 3in lift, yet it fails to even mention one at all. Not impressed in my opinion!
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:12 AM   #6
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Thanks for all the timely responses and information! Please bare with me, as this is the first time I installed a lift. And though it was not difficult, there are apparently some things that the instructions did not mention.

SeaComm - you are correct, it did not come with an adjustable track bar so there is no adjustment to be made there. Through research here on the site I have heard (more than once) that it is important to loosen all the control arm & track bar bolts to reset the bushings to a new neutral position. Can I still accomplish this? If so, do I jack up the front end and set it on jack stands and let the suspension fully drop, then loosen the bolts & re-tighten, or do I loosen the bolts while it's jacked up and then re-tighten when its back down on the ground under weight again?

My steering wheel was nearly straight after the lift, and I did not get the warning lights until a week+ after driving it (maybe 500 miles or so). At first, the lights would occassionally go out, but they would eventually always come back on in time. And to be clear, I have ALL the warning lights illuminated just as in your case - the ABS, traction control and TPS/BAS lights. After the front end alignment that I had done today, it's now dead-on straight. However, the lights are still illuminated.

So where should I start in your opinion(s) - the track bar/control arms bolts, or a fault code reader, or with the "Dave's Permanent ESP Disabled Dance"??
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:26 AM   #7
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No worries, I have learnt most of this from trial and error and others offering advice, its nice to able to return the favour to someone else

The control arm bolts - no need to jack it up, just crawl under and loosen all 8 of them off (do not remove, just loosen so the nuts just come free from the brackets). Jump up and down on both ends to settle everything in then retorque. 125ft/lb for all upper and lower rear arms, 125 ft/lb for front lowers and 75 ft/lb for front uppers. Same should be done for the track bar bolts - as in not tightened up until back sitting on all 4 wheels - 125 ft/lb for both ends of both track bars, again can be done now without jacking or stands.

Since you didnt have an adjustable track bar, the steering wheel should have stayed almost straight after the lift. It would have only be out by a small amount due to the freeplay in the 14mm bolts used in the 9/16 track bar mounts and bushes (another of Jeeps strange setups!). Personally I would recommend investing in an adjustable front track bar to recenter the diff, with the lift you have on there now the diff will be about 1/2 in off to the drivers side, putting sideways pressure on the control arms and making you drive down the street slightly sideways - could be the cause of the lights coming on, but most likely not.

Since all the lights are coming on, then its not just detecting a situation and trying to correct it, its indicating a system failure and disabling it. Could be part of the old computer software if it hasnt been upgraded - trying the disable dance will tell you if the upgrade has been performed, as it wont work on the old software. You 'should' be able to get that upgraded at no charge even out of warranty, as it was a Technical Service Bulletin to rectify it from being too sensitive.

If that doesnt fix the problem, then next step is the fault code reader to see what codes are coming up and where to look next. Driving with it in that condition is not dangerous, but bear in mind that all the electronic help systems are disabled - so no traction control, no ABS brakes (not 100% sure on the ABS being disabled but presuming it is not working is safer than presuming it is working), no roll mitigation etc.

Good luck!
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2010 Dark Charcoal Pearl 'Renegade' pack (includes dual top options, 17in alloys, side steps etc).
2.5in Flexy springs, Bilstien 5100's, Teraflex rear trackbar bracket, Synergy front and rear sway bar links and front disco kit, Synergy steering damper relocation bracket, AEV front drop brackets, ARB front and rear bar, 10,000lb rope winch, Britax Xray Vision driving lights, GME 3440 UHF radio.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:50 AM   #8
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Thank you much Dave! You're knowledge, experience and assistance are MOST appreciated. I would like to add you as a 'friend', if that's ok?

Thanks again - Ron
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Old 01-15-2012, 04:29 PM   #9
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No worries Ron, good luck with it, hope its not the clock spring since you would be out of warranty now....
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2010 Dark Charcoal Pearl 'Renegade' pack (includes dual top options, 17in alloys, side steps etc).
2.5in Flexy springs, Bilstien 5100's, Teraflex rear trackbar bracket, Synergy front and rear sway bar links and front disco kit, Synergy steering damper relocation bracket, AEV front drop brackets, ARB front and rear bar, 10,000lb rope winch, Britax Xray Vision driving lights, GME 3440 UHF radio.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaComms
No worries Ron, good luck with it, hope its not the clock spring since you would be out of warranty now....
I just got a "clock spring" ex warranty from chrysler.
Not sure if it pertains to all years?
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:24 AM   #11
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Yesterday I went through the process of loosening all the upper/lower control arms as well as the track bar. I spent some time bouncing & rocking the vehicle and then tightened everything back up. It would APPEAR that this worked, as all the warning lights are now out! Hoping it stays this way. If not, I'll try the ESP permanent disable process as well as check with the dealership to see if the computer flash upgrade relative to the sensors being too sensitive was ever completed. I also think I'm going to invest in upgrading to an adjustable track bar.

Thanks again for all the help!
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:33 PM   #12
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Well, so much for that... all the lights are back on again. What I don't understand is, they went out yesterday after I adjusted all the control arm & trackbar bolts, but today, right at start up, they were back on again. What changed while the vehicle was parked overnight that would cause the problem to re-occur right at starting & before even being driven again??

Tomorrow, first thing, I'm going to see my local dealer about the computer upgrade... then I'm ordering an adjustable trackbar.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:57 AM   #13
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Spoke to Jeep Customer Service via phone and, utilizing my VIN#, they were able to verify that an EBC computer upgrade from 2007 was conducted to my Wranger in 2008. SeaComm - is this the upgrade you were referring to?

@ Kjeeper10 - Customer Service also advised me of that same ex-warranty just now on the phone. They said it's possible that is what's causing the lights to come on, and according to SeaComm's information above, IS what caused the same problem in his vehicle.

Of course, the dealership wants to charge me $84.50 for their bullsh*t 'diagnostic test' to see if my computer was upgraded & what's causing the warning lights. If my problems are related to the clock spring, they will refund me the cost of the test and fix the problem under warranty... if not, they'll tell me what's wrong but, of course, keep my cash. Jerkoffs....
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #14
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Bigdawg, did you diconnect your battery for at least 30 minutes after loosening and tightening it all up?

Reason I ask is if my JK throws up a dash light for ABS, ESP or whatever it stays on until either the dealer flashes the ECU or I fix the problem and disconnect the battery long enough for it to forget the warning and reset itself.

If the problem persists it will of course light up again.

Happened when I put the lift in and steering wheel was off to left.
Home fix.

Again when I got a low front tire and the ABS light came on.
Fixed at home and reset.

I just disconnect the positive side of the battery and put it back before work in the morning.
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdawg0114
Spoke to Jeep Customer Service via phone and, utilizing my VIN#, they were able to verify that an EBC computer upgrade from 2007 was conducted to my Wranger in 2008. SeaComm - is this the upgrade you were referring to?

@ Kjeeper10 - Customer Service also advised me of that same ex-warranty just now on the phone. They said it's possible that is what's causing the lights to come on, and according to SeaComm's information above, IS what caused the same problem in his vehicle.

Of course, the dealership wants to charge me $84.50 for their bullsh*t 'diagnostic test' to see if my computer was upgraded & what's causing the warning lights. If my problems are related to the clock spring, they will refund me the cost of the test and fix the problem under warranty... if not, they'll tell me what's wrong but, of course, keep my cash. Jerkoffs....
Good luck--

Disco the battery overnight and connect Before work like mentioned
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:09 AM   #16
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I disconnected the battery last night for about an hour or so, which apparently wasnt long enough to reset the computer. Not only do the same lights still illuminate, but my radio station presets were still present. I'll try it again tonight and leave it that way overnight this time. I had to work this morning early so I couldnt leave it overnight for the morning.

A local mechanic friend (though not a Jeep specialist) stated that if the clock spring in the steering wheel was the issue, that it most likely would cause the airbag light to illuminate or the horn to not work. With the lights I have illuminated, he thinks I may have either disconnected or broke one of the ABS sensor wires while I was installing the lift and the axles were dropped way down to install the new hardware. I guess thats certainly possible - I did notice that, while installing in the rear end, that I didnt notice how far the ABS wiring harnesses were extended until I was partially finished up, and by then I could very well have screwed something up. Ya know, the more I look at it and with some good info earlier from 'SeaComm', I'm really kinda pissed at Rough Country! Their instructions were very general and not at all specific. They should have definately mentioned things like recommending an adjustable track bar be installed, and to loosen the control arm & track bar bolts after installing the lift to re-center the bushings, and certainly to disconnect crucial wiring like the ABS as to avoid damaging anything while the axles were dropped. This was my first time installing a lift, and those are things you only learn through experience & trial and error (or by joining sites like this one BEFORE you attempt it). Lookin' more & more like I'll be donating $84.50 to my local Jeep dealership, against my will, to run my truck on their computer.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:01 PM   #17
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Well, they dont call it the "stealership" for nothin'!!

As if it wasn't bad enough that they charged me the $85 for a simple ECU computer diagnostic check to find out what the problem was, but they then wanted to charge me another $200 to fix the right rear wheel speed sensor. When I began to inquire further as to the details of the problem, I found that it was not to replace the sensor itself, but to simple "repair the corroded/broken wiring to the sensor".

Okay, and on what planet does simply splicing in some new 12 gauge wiring that would take about 10 mins to accomplish justify 2+ hours labor charge??! And just when I thought I couldn't hate the service dept. any more than I already do! Obviously, I opted not to have them complete the work and advised them that I think I can handle it from here. Jerkoffs! And apparently (again, according to the service dept) the front end alignment I just had done a week or so ago (Midas) wasn't done correctly?? I now have to return back there for a "free" alignment when I get the rig back from the stealership wizards.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:18 PM   #18
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Lift manufacturers give you just enough info to install the lift. Some more than others.
Thats why I like finding a write up. Learn from someone else's mistakes.
Tera flex has a good vid I saw. Made it very clear to keep an eye on the break lines/sensors/wires. Also made note of not fully tightening the bolts till on the ground then torque to spec. Just got to do research first before you dive into things.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:20 PM   #19
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i didnt take the time to read all the post here. so if i am repeating something i am sorry. i had the same issue with mu jk after i lifted it. i asked around and nobody could give me a solid answer. so i took it to the dealership and the guy told me it was because i changed the geometry of the vehicle so all the sensors were going off. so he told me he could run the newest FLASH they had and it would take care of the issue. a flash is a computer program if you dont know. i have not had any problems since. after it was done i researched it a little bit. sure enough other people had complained of the same issue and had the same fix for it.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:02 PM   #20
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The sensors in these JK's are like overweight goth teens. Oversensative and difficult to diagnose.

If I air down and don't get all four tires to exactly the same pressure ABS light goes on. Didn't think 28 or 25 lbs would matter but it does.

If a 45 lb lab jumps in the front seat while the engine is running the airbag light goes on.

Heavy on the throttle up a long snow covered driveway the traction control light goes on.
Duh, I know the roads are slick. Thats why I put friggin snow chains on and use 4WD. Slow me down and I won't make it to the top of the hill damnit!


Steering wheel a litte off to the left after a 3" lift the ESP light goes on. Fix it.Nope, light goes on. Now it's too far right. Fix it, nope. still off center.


Jeez, how many idiot lights do I need?

Dawg, try touching the wires together AFTER completely removing them from the battery to drop the residual charge.
Radio should keep the stations memorized but idiot lights should go out until they trigger again. Which will be soon I'm sure.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:15 PM   #21
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@BHall - I got some great info here on the forum from tons of more experienced Jeepers and their advice has proven invaluable! I just wish I had joined BEFORE I installed my lift, as it would have definately saved me lots of headaches & aggravation.

Kjeeper10 is dead on the money - the instructions for my lift (Rough Country) were just enough to get it installed, and that's about it. It wasn't until I joined this forum where I started to realize several issues & potential mistakes I made. The instructions mentioned nothing as far as loosening all the upper & lower control arm bolts as well as the track bar before putting the rig back on the ground, which is actually a very important & necessary step. It also failed to give you heads up pointers like keeping an eye on the brake lines & ABS wiring when you drop the axles down to ensure you don't overextend them (which is likely how I damaged mine!) Lastly, it never gave a list of "recommended equipment" such as an adjustable track bar, control arms, etc.

Turns out my problem was simply one of the two wires that run to passenger side rear wheel speed sensor had apparently got pinched during my lift install, subsequently cutting it. It took me 10 mins to repair once I got home from the stealership & all of the lights are now out.

Thanx to all for your great advice & assistance!

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