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Old 05-28-2013, 08:52 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Matador View Post
Let me wrap this up by saying, again, that the AEV is a great proven kit but its design purpose is much different than RK or Metal Cloak. You might be able to do what the others do offroad, just not as we'll.
We pretty much agree.

The AEV doesn't pretend to be the absolute end-all-be-all of lift kits, it is a great basic lift for people who commute in their Jeep 5 days a week, run to the grocery store on saturday, and with some luck get to go beat it up a bit on sundays. That's me. Frankly, that's a lot of us.

However as I have discussed in previous posts, I'm not exactly the 'oh, its dirt, so it counts as off-road' guy... I do get into some pretty technical trails and this kit has done just fine by me.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:53 PM   #62
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I have to disagree, I've wheeled all of MOAB. I've done it on the 2.5, 3.5, and the 4.5 AEV. I've been wheeling for 18 years and owned many different kits.

Not correct at all. AEV uses the factory arm because there's nothing wrong with them. The TJ AEV kits used new arms because the old stamped arms were weak.

For many people building a Jeep that is a rock crawler or weekend crawler doesn't justify losing the on road handling. No AEV kit I've ever used made me stop and say, "man I wished I could flex more.

Great videos!

You made some very good points. I hope you do not think I'm bashing the RK product, it's a great product but just like every kit out there it has it's applications.
Mike, I think we are in agreement with most things. I keep repeating this point but I'll do it again, AEV produces a great kit and excels in on road handling and overlanding, if that's what you plan doing, get it. Can a 2.5", 3.5" or 4" get you through Moab? Sure, is it the Best option to do it? I'm going to say no, I feel that a lift replacing control arms offering substantial more flex during articulation is a better option, especially if they are priced the same.

IMO, the top 3 lifts are AEV, RK and Metal Cloak. They could all get you through most situations but like AEV excels in onroad handling, RK excels in hardcore rock krawling. Metal Cloak is the hybrid between both. They focus on a LCG lift to achieve great on road handling and their control arms help with incredible offload flexing. It's the kit out of b three that hits all points on a consistent level.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:56 PM   #63
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I think that the last two pages of this thread have taught me more about lift kits than anything else I've read so far.

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The AEV doesn't pretend to be the absolute end-all-be-all of lift kits, it is a great basic lift for people who commute in their Jeep 5 days a week, run to the grocery store on saturday, and with some luck get to go beat it up a bit on sundays. That's me. Frankly, that's a lot of us.
And this paragraph has probably made up my mind as to which one I'm getting. Thanks, all.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:13 PM   #64
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And this paragraph has probably made up my mind as to which one I'm getting. Thanks, all.
So wonderfully cryptic!

Enjoy which ever lift you go with, and no matter which one it is, I'm glad I could help you get to where you needed to be.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:14 PM   #65
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So just a little insight on the NTh Degree kit (AEV)

AEV uses a geometry correction bracket for a few different reasons.
1. When you lift a Jeep you're changing the factory geometry. There is a measurement called "instant center". In a stock JkU that "instant center is just forward of the "B" pillar. When the average lift is put on a JKU that instant center goes back to right around the fuel door. The AEV (NTH Degree) when using those brackets bring that instant center to the B pillar. You will see 2 things happened when looking at the brackets. One is that the lower control arm sits parallel to the frame as it did from the factory. Jeep got the lower control arm correct. The other thing you'll see is AEV moved the upper control arm down below the frame. Jeep didn't get that quite right per a guy named Jim Frens, (Google him) Jim came from Chrysler. This is what AEV did to correct the less then centered "instant center" and off center of gravity.
2. By the correction of the geometry AEV is able to run stock drive shafts even when running a 4.5 lift. The reason is due to a more factory stance. This levels the frame/body over the axles. In hard off camber off road situations and extreme on road driving the Jeep is more stable and secure. You are more able to recover from a emergency lane change or life or death stopping/braking situation. Go to your local AEV dealer. Ask to test drive a 2.5 or 3.5 lift and ask to test braking. (I can help you locate your local dealer and set up a test drive if you like)
Just as many companies AEV uses relocation brackets for steering. Just as with the control arms these mounting points are engineered to fix and aid the leverage on steering. The NTH Degree suspension handles better on the road then other set ups out there due to simple engineering.
Next AEV uses their own Recipe for their coils. The 2.5", 3.5" & 4.5" coils all can only be used on a 4 door or 2 door. You must order 2 door springs for a 2 door or 4 door springs for a 4 door. Recipe means that at a liquid metal state the make up of the spring steel is made only for the spring being used be AEV. Next is the bilstien shock. Just like each size lift the coils are for 2door or 4 door only and should only be ordered/used on the corresponding Jeep. The shocks built for AEV for each size lift and for the 2 &4 door Jeep are Frequency tuned to work with the coil supplied by AEV. These shocks are valved and tuned only for AEV. Using this shock with any other coil will produce a poor ride. The coil and spring must be matched and work in unison. If not its out of balance. The AEV kits are designed to compress at 1.5 Oscillations per impact. That means on impact, compress down to the ground under gravity, then up over standard ride hight, then level to ride hight. This is not opinion, it's science and can be seen on YouTube in many videos.

What does all this crap mean? What it means to me is that although I get to travel all over the country and wheel for a living I still do not only drive my Jeeps off road. In fact we drove all over MOAB and then drove home. I know that no mater what,.. when my family is in my Jeep they are safe. My family knows that when I'm driving my Jeep it is able to handle anything that I throw at it. AEV does not believe in Sacrificing any on road drivability for off road capability. True, AEV is not a "rock crawler" kit, nor is it a "mud bogger" the NTH Degree is a safe fully engineered suspension that can handle some of the hardest trails in the country as well as around the world and still drive us home safely. This is science, not my opinion nor is it a sales pitch. If anything I want you to buy a TeraFlex or RK kit if that's what fits your needs. I can only advise on what AEV does and why. Call Dennis at TeraFlex or Jacob Hurd or AJ or any of those guys. They make a great product. Sorry but I don't know the guys at RK. but they also make great stuff. It just doesn't fit my application.

I've been a Jeep owner for over 18 years. I've owned 23 CJ's and Wranglers. I've sold, built and now have a great job doing what I love. All this in no way means I know more then anyone about wheeling or Jeep. I have a lot of real world experence and a lot of dealings with the people behind our Jeep as well as the people building products we all use or want to use. I'll say it again, Don't buy AEV because you think it's cool or it's what's affordable in your budget, buy what fits your Application.

Again, if you would like a real test drive let me know. I'll see what I can do about getting you behind the wheel and feel for yourself what the AEV kit really is. If you're in my area I'll do what I can to meet with you and you can drive mine.
Hope I helped and sorry for my long winded post.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:18 PM   #66
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So wonderfully cryptic!

Enjoy which ever lift you go with, and no matter which one it is, I'm glad I could help you get to where you needed to be.
You pretty much exactly described how I use my Jeep, and with the largely glowing praise for the AEV kit and crucially, explanations why it's so good, I'm sold.

I was looking at less expensive kits from Teraflex and ProComp, but I think it's probably something I shouldn't skimp on. I've spent over a grand on stereo components for the Jeep, it would seem perverse to quibble about a couple of hundred bucks on the bits that make the vehicle stick to the road.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:25 PM   #67
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You pretty much exactly described how I use my Jeep, and with the largely glowing praise for the AEV kit and crucially, explanations why it's so good, I'm sold.

I was looking at less expensive kits from Teraflex and ProComp, but I think it's probably something I shouldn't skimp on. I've spent over a grand on stereo components for the Jeep, it would seem perverse to quibble about a couple of hundred bucks on the bits that make the vehicle stick to the road.
I can tell you that the road handling is far superior to the stock handling. And the offroad is also, but to a lesser degree (mostly due to the shocks).

However let me offer you this one interesting bit of information that no one told me, and I don't see getting discussed much with regard to larger tires...

The electronic stability program uses tire speed in ways you might not imagine. If you change to larger tires, do not skimp on getting something to tell your computer about it, either superchips, or Procal or whatever.

After my lift, and after an alignment to correct toe, my truck had an impressive tendency to pull right under braking. I CHECKED EVERYTHING.. it was all straight, and all good, but every time, hard braking, hard counter-steering.

The Procal was on my list, and it was a couple months between the tires and my regear... So I figured I'd get the Procal after my gears were done... So I did.... And I set it for the 35's and the 4.88s, and when I test drove it the braking pull was GONE.

Here is why (I suspect), a wheel on the right was probably moving a slightly different speed, and stability control was attempting to correct that by using a little extra brake on that wheel... BUT what it didn't know was that the tire size was a fair bit larger than it thought, and thus the speed was not as far out of line as it thought. Furthermore, the necessary correction in braking was too much and amplified by the larger tire.

Once the stability system knew what was going on, the problem instantly went away.... Your jeep is smart, like it or not... And if you send it bad data you will get bad results. Tell it about your tires!

And for the love of God, always WAVE!
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:28 PM   #68
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Matador, and spyder1049 you guys are both in my area. I can meet you at Huntington Jeep if you'd like. It may be a few weeks but maybe 2 or 3 weeks from now I should make my way there. If you'd like to talk to someone there Bill in sales is a great guy to help with questions or a ride.
Matador, we do agree on almost everything. I just didn't want someone thinking that the AEV product couldn't do what a RK kit can. I've followed them as well as they have followed me. It's a great product and is just designed differently with a different focus.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:34 PM   #69
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In auto trans the wheel speed sensors tell the trans when to shift. The AEV Procal doesn't void warranty in any way. It also can not change programming that would effect warranty. It's designed with Chrysler.
Wheels are also a big deal in handling. Google scrub rate. AEV uses a 5.25 offset. Not a 4.5 back space. The AEV offset matches factory scrub rate which reduces heavy load on the wheel and doesn't overload the axle through leverage on the "C's" which can also lead to death wobble or premature ball joint wear.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:15 AM   #70
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I bought a jeep from Bill last year, traded it in for the one I have now, I did see all the AEV jeeps there, expensive ;-)
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:55 AM   #71
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Matador, and spyder1049 you guys are both in my area. I can meet you at Huntington Jeep if you'd like. It may be a few weeks but maybe 2 or 3 weeks from now I should make my way there. If you'd like to talk to someone there Bill in sales is a great guy to help with questions or a ride.
Matador, we do agree on almost everything. I just didn't want someone thinking that the AEV product couldn't do what a RK kit can. I've followed them as well as they have followed me. It's a great product and is just designed differently with a different focus.
I would love to meet up with you Mike and really take a close look at the AEV set up and go for a drive, if you have the time. Your explanation above was great. I don't think you'll find anyone in this thread that disputes AEV's engineering. On road its probably hands down the best option and I would love to check it out first hand.

AEV's great on road points hurt them offroad and there are companies like RK that do a better job in that regard and vice versa, what makes RK great off road hurts them on road. Then you have companies like MC that come in at the middle and covers both areas really well with a LCG (Low Center of Gravity) design philosophy. Similar to your conversations with Bill and Dennis, I think you should call up Matson. The guy is passionate about Jeeps and will have no problem spending time talking about what makes their kit unique.

Again, please let me know when your in Huntington and I will try my best to make it out there, thanks.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:26 AM   #72
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Like most people, I'm on a budget. Any problem getting one of these 2.5" lifts and running stock shocks for a few months?
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:58 AM   #73
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Like most people, I'm on a budget. Any problem getting one of these 2.5" lifts and running stock shocks for a few months?
The problem with running a 2.5"+ lift is that your changing the Jeeps geometry and need at the very least a front track bar and rear track bar bracket to get the Jeep somewhat centered. Even then your still dealing with axle adjustment that needs to be done with either correction brackets, as explained above, or adjustable control arms.

The fact is that when you get over 2" actual lift, there is a variety of changes that need to be addressed. I recommend that you check out this thread. It will help give you an outline if your working off a budget.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/lif...ps-221119.html
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:05 AM   #74
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^^^ This. Plus if you want to run stock shocks, Teraflex has adapters for them. See here for front and here for rear!
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:49 AM   #75
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Soooo.... If someone had their mind set on AEV, do you recommend a 2.5" or 3.5"? Any major differences that someone should know of/about before making that decision? Assume original poster was asking (meaning 90% + daily driver) with 35" tires. I know both can accomodate 35's, but was wondering if I should save the extra money and just go with the 2.5".
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:29 PM   #76
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The problem with running a 2.5"+ lift is that your changing the Jeeps geometry and need at the very least a front track bar and rear track bar bracket to get the Jeep somewhat centered. Even then your still dealing with axle adjustment that needs to be done with either correction brackets, as explained above, or adjustable control arms.

The fact is that when you get over 2" actual lift, there is a variety of changes that need to be addressed. I recommend that you check out this thread. It will help give you an outline if your working off a budget.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/lif...ps-221119.html
I agree with track bars to get the axles centered....but I've run an OME 2"(that was closer to 3") and an RK 2.5" (that was 3") without control arms, and both were well within spec getting on alignment (as in needed no adjustment). Both drove and handled very well, no issues.
While I agree that changing the suspension changes the geometry, I think people are getting a little carried away, most of these kits are well engineered and professionally tested. Of course adding control arms and such will dial it in perfectly.....but more than a few people just use those kits "as is" without issue.
As to the shocks, the stock shocks will handle up to 2" of lift, anything more than that and they become the limiting factor...not a good thing
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:09 PM   #77
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Matador , so could you suggest a kit thats around 1000-2000 that will give me a great on road ride while also allowing me to do some good off roading at rausch, to just beach running like im used to . I would love to have something upgradeable that if i need to add something i could . I look at it as I'm going to learn on the go and figure all this stuff out , but i need a good base to work with .
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I would get the Metal Cloak ARB edition. It costs $1,599 and includes everything you'll need for mostly anything you'll come across on the beach or rausch. What I really like about the Metal Cloak kit that is unique and different from AEV and RK are the dual rate springs, dura flex joints on the front upper control arms and the OME nitro shocks. With the remaining $400 you could pick up lower front control arms to really dial everything in and possibly exhaust spacers depending on your final lift amount and drive shaft clearance.

JK Wrangler Dual-Rate Lift Kit, 2.5"/3.5", ARB Edition
Have to agree with Matador's recommendation. I put that lift on my Jeep 2 months ago and have been loving it since. I only get off-road maybe once a month. It handles great on road. Once I got it aligned and the caster set after the lift I've had no handling problems at all. I spent months looking at RK and AEV and then found out about MC and spent even more time looking and learning. One of the things I like about the MC kit is even though it makes install a pain, their springs are LONG. The kit comes with OME long travel shocks (whether a 2.5 or 3.5" kit) and there is still no way those springs are coming out at full droop.

edit: I should note that MC is also a local to me business so that was one of my deciding factors because it meant I was supporting a local business. Of course that came with other benefits like not having to pay shipping and being able to physically go over and talk to them and check stuff out.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:52 PM   #78
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k if anyone can give me a little insight on rims and tires id appreciate the help before i call
XD798 17x9, 5x5.0 OS: -12mm BS: 4.53" - Mtt Blk
would that offset and back space work on a 315 70 17 duratrac
im not sure how to find out this info , if theres an easy way to check if someone could throw me a linky id appreciate it
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:12 PM   #79
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k if anyone can give me a little insight on rims and tires id appreciate the help before i call
XD798 17x9, 5x5.0 OS: -12mm BS: 4.53" - Mtt Blk
would that offset and back space work on a 315 70 17 duratrac
im not sure how to find out this info , if theres an easy way to check if someone could throw me a linky id appreciate it
Have you checked out the AEV or Rugged Ridge wheels like I had mentioned?
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:32 PM   #80
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Aev 2.5 dual sport with geometry correction brackets and 17" rr wheels with 295/70r17 trail grapplers ftw!!!

Handles and rides better than stock. Aev is all about stock feel with improved aftermarket parts. They really give you a rock crawler with stock on road characteristics... Only downfall is with the geometry correction your control arms sit down kinda low but if you aren't beating them up on rocks you should be fine.

I posted a good photo w. difference between stock and lifted.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:14 AM   #81
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Have you checked out the AEV or Rugged Ridge wheels like I had mentioned?
Yes I did thank you, the only one I would consider is the black pintlers, they are nice, 60 bucks more a wheel and not the look I was going for.
Am I going to notice that much of a difference with a AEV rim opposed to kmc? If so then I will reconsider my choices, also I'm almost committed to the metalcloak arb dual rated kit. I can't order it till I know my back spacing so I'm trying to get my wheels figured out.
Tia
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:07 AM   #82
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If its looks you're after the AEV is very limited.this is the tech on AEV

The wheels made by AEV are designed to match Chrysler specs 100%. The wheel has a 5.25 offset which keeps the wheel/tire at a factory stance and the rubber (in a true 35x12.50) in the wheel well. This way our wheels pass all states safety inspections. This also will help to keep this tire from throwing a rock or dirt in the spotter or trail guides face, or through someone's windshield off road. It's not going to stop it from happening but it will reduce the chance.
The 5.25 offset also sets the tire/wheel at the closest to factory scrub rate possible. This is a measurement that comes from weight distribution via tire leverage on the "C's" as well as vehicle leverage over the tires/wheels.
AEV also builds the center of the wheel on the hub side to match the Chrysler hub perfectly. The problem with many after market wheels is that the hub in the wheel is larger then the hub on your jeep. This allows a force called Shear Load to be put onto the lugs and not the hub where it belongs. The studs are designed as a part that simply holds the wheel to the Jeep. They were not designed to support Shear Load. It's possible to break a stud by simple daily driving. It's also possible to totally lose a wheel on or off road due to the inability of the wheel stud to stand strong against the Shear Load.
There are lots of great wheels out there. I've sold many over the years before my time with AEV but even then I informed my customers of the design of the AEV wheel. Again, not trying to sell you on AEV. It's just the tech.
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:12 AM   #83
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Soooo.... If someone had their mind set on AEV, do you recommend a 2.5" or 3.5"? Any major differences that someone should know of/about before making that decision? Assume original poster was asking (meaning 90% + daily driver) with 35" tires. I know both can accomodate 35's, but was wondering if I should save the extra money and just go with the 2.5".
Joe, if you do the 2.5 you're limited to 35 being the largest. I don't suggest you run a 37 on the 3.5 but I've seen it done.

The 3.5 and 2.5 are for most parts the same. You do need to invest the $100 for the geometry correction brackets for the 2.5. A 33 or 35 is very happy on the 2.5 lift. I love it on my wife's jeep running 33x9.50/r17 km2 on J8 wheels.

My JK350 on the left, my wife's JKU 2.5 on 33x9.5 KM2's & J8 wheels.

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Old 05-30-2013, 06:20 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Matador View Post
I would love to meet up with you Mike and really take a close look at the AEV set up and go for a drive, if you have the time. Your explanation above was great. I don't think you'll find anyone in this thread that disputes AEV's engineering. On road its probably hands down the best option and I would love to check it out first hand.

AEV's great on road points hurt them offroad and there are companies like RK that do a better job in that regard and vice versa, what makes RK great off road hurts them on road. Then you have companies like MC that come in at the middle and covers both areas really well with a LCG (Low Center of Gravity) design philosophy. Similar to your conversations with Bill and Dennis, I think you should call up Matson. The guy is passionate about Jeeps and will have no problem spending time talking about what makes their kit unique.

Again, please let me know when your in Huntington and I will try my best to make it out there, thanks.
Thanks! I will let you know when I'm in the area. Next week is Michigan and Ohio. I'd like to say after that but I have a few events so who knows. Lol.

Your 100% right. There are many companies making great rock crawling kits. I've just never understood why someone would build a daily driver "rock crawler". It is like when I was into racing bicycles. I raced downhill and I had a downhill bike to ride DH. I would not have built a everyday bike to ride/race DH. I also had dirt jumping bikes, flat land bikes, XC bikes, Urban Assault bikes, and ramp bikes, but that's mostly because I'm obsessive lol.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mike Gardner View Post
Thanks! I will let you know when I'm in the area. Next week is Michigan and Ohio. I'd like to say after that but I have a few events so who knows. Lol.

Your 100% right. There are many companies making great rock crawling kits. I've just never understood why someone would build a daily driver "rock crawler". It is like when I was into racing bicycles. I raced downhill and I had a downhill bike to ride DH. I would not have built a everyday bike to ride/race DH. I also had dirt jumping bikes, flat land bikes, XC bikes, Urban Assault bikes, and ramp bikes, but that's mostly because I'm obsessive lol.
haha Jeeps are a bit more expensive than bicycles. With I Jeep I think the smartest thing to do is get a lift that has a broader function and not specialized in one particular area, especially if its your daily driver that you plan on off roading on the weekends.

Let me know when your in the area please, I would really like to stop by and check out your set up.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:22 AM   #86
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Mike what size duratrac do I need to fit the pintlers 315 70 17?
Sorry for the stupid question
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:37 PM   #87
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after all the back and forth in my head i pulled the trigger. I went with the aev kit 2.5 , geo brackets , and the procal . Ordered should be here early next week woot .
I'm looking to get the pintlers in black 17inch and 315 duratracs , just need to confirm what size i need to buy , if any one has this combo and can reply I'd appreciate it looking to buy asap
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:48 PM   #88
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O btw i appreciate everyones input , your all the best , love this forum , If you think i made the wrong decision or right one , i'll find out soon enough . Being that its my DD and i'm looking to be a weekend warrior , not a extreme rock krawler i ended up going with the aev . I did'nt want to sacrifice my on road ride ( possibly) and hate driving my 75 mile one way commute every day. If this kit doesnt suit my needs in the future for what i want to do in the jeep i will upgrade at that time ( hopefully it will) . I'm trying to say to myself that its a rubicon , i got some extra clearance with the kit and tires alone and i have alot to learn about offroading , i like to think about the jeep as a already capable offroad vehicle , im just making it better . I think of it as a lot of the jeep also comes from the driver , and i have a lot to learn .
Thanks again
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Spyder1049 View Post
O btw i appreciate everyones input , your all the best , love this forum , If you think i made the wrong decision or right one , i'll find out soon enough . Being that its my DD and i'm looking to be a weekend warrior , not a extreme rock krawler i ended up going with the aev . I did'nt want to sacrifice my on road ride ( possibly) and hate driving my 75 mile one way commute every day. If this kit doesnt suit my needs in the future for what i want to do in the jeep i will upgrade at that time ( hopefully it will) . I'm trying to say to myself that its a rubicon , i got some extra clearance with the kit and tires alone and i have alot to learn about offroading , i like to think about the jeep as a already capable offroad vehicle , im just making it better . I think of it as a lot of the jeep also comes from the driver , and i have a lot to learn .
Thanks again

315/75/17 is basically the 35 you are aiming for. It works out to like 35.5inch...70s will end up at about 34.3

Happy to assist.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:16 PM   #90
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Mike - PM sent - Great information from everyone!

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