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No gear oil in diff - what kind of damage?

13K views 37 replies 18 participants last post by  Tweak 
#1 · (Edited)
Took my 2016 JKU Rubi HR to a local 4X4 dealer to have Arctec trusses and gussets installed in the front and trusses in the rear. Brought the Jeep home yesterday and put over 100 miles on it today. Got a text from the 4X4 shop owner at 9:30p.m. tonight telling me not to drive my Jeep as his mechanic may have forgotten to fill the front diff with gear oil. I went and checked and had to add over a quart to the front diff which means I was running it empty of gear oil for over 100 miles today.

To make things worse I found the front diff cover had not been torqued at all and I had fluid leaking all over my garage floor until I torqued it properly. My rear diff was not leaking but had not been torqued properly either and 2 of the bolts at the top of the diff were missing - I suspect they fell out today since some of the bolts were at less than 5 ft/lbs. when I checked them.

I know the back diff is fine since I had gear oil at proper levels, but what damage might have I done to the front R&P, bearings, locker,...?
 
#2 ·
To add more information I was never in 4WD but I know the front axles will turn the gears and the drive shaft - very little load but I imagine the carrier bearings and the R&P sustained too much heat and need to be replaced at a minimum. Will my locker and spider gears need to be replaced as well?
 
#4 ·
I cannot imagine the housing is damaged. I would say I may need to replace the axle shafts (RCV's with less than 500 miles on them), the carrier, locker, R&P and all bearings. I am positive the shop will have to be taken to court to make them fix the issue properly which means I will be fixing it out of pocket while I force the issue.

Interestingly, no noises, lockups or symptom occurred while driving it.
 
#5 ·
You need to post the name of the shop so nobody else gets hosed by them. What they did is unacceptable, I don't care what they say.

Did you drive it after you put gear oil in it? I would drive it a bit and put it in 4wd, too.
Try the lockers as well.

Sorry to hear this, but if you have to sue them to make it right, it isn't a reputable shop.
 
#6 ·
I am surprised they said anything at all. They basically admitted an error (lol, "may have forgot"). If you approach the issue with the shop manager/owner in a calm manner, I bet they will replace everything you listed. I imagine a good deal of a 4x4 shop business is word-of-mouth on the trail and the $$$ they spend getting you squared away would be much better spent than the fallout of lost future business.

I'd say give the owner a call and tell him exactly what you want. Also, let him know about the incorrect torque and fluid all over the floor. From my view, you have the upper hand. Hopefully things will go smooth for you bro and it doesn't get dragged down to the level of going to court...:puke:
 
#7 ·
Personally (having spent a career amongst lawsuits) I would go at it in this order:

1) I'm a nice guy and I understand people make mistakes. I hate this happened. Thankfully I wasn't out in the wild today 4-wheeling. Whew! I'm glad you called me!

2) Yup, it was bone dry. I did some research and found that the following parts may have been damaged: X, Y, Z

3) Since premature failure wouldn't be detected till much farther down the line, I feel like I have to get these inspected now.

4) I'm sure you'll understand but given what's happened I'd only feel comfortable if the dealer inspected.

5) Would you rather have the dealer inspect and replace as deemed necessary, or would you rather just tear it down yourselves and replace all of X, Y, and Z, whether you believe there's any damage or not. (And of course, I'd want to see the insides while it's apart).


That would be my initial approach, very friendly, very reasonable, very "shit happensy."

If they refuse those two options, I'd ask what they propose. I'd listen. Realize that a lawsuit will be a sunavabitch, with no guarantees of winning, and if you win, no guarantees you'll get the money out of them. If you win, the judge doesn't stand there and demand they peel off a roll of hundreds and hand them to you. She gives you a judgment. Now it's up to you to collect a lot of the time (depending on jurisdiction.)

I might eventually threaten a lawsuit (through my atty, in writing, never verbally myself. NEVER! "I'm gonna sue you!" is a cliche, and causes folks to get mad and say stuff back to you that backs both of you into a corner from which it's hard to retreat without losing face, and that's hard for a guy to do."

But I'd probably only threaten over a matter like this. I might actually sue if they absolutely stonewalled and would do nothing for me, AND if I had some documentation that what happened actually happened. What if you show up in court with nothing but a "He called and said... and then I checked and sure enough..." and he shows up with, "Nope, none of that ever happened" ?

But far better would be getting 1/2 of what I wanted without suing, or 3/4s or whatever. Shoot for a full replacement of X,Y and Z, but settle for him replacing X for sure and only inspecting Y & Z and replacing if they aren't up to spec. Or something like that, based on what the dealer SA tells you they would do if you brought it in. Maybe the dealer would say, "Just drain the oil you put in and check for shavings." Or put a magnet to it. Or whatever. Maybe he'll say take a micrometer to the thinakin pin or something.

At any rate, I'd try to get as much out of the shop in question as possible without pissing them off. Maybe the owner is as horrified as you are and will go out of his way to make it right? Could happen...
 
#15 ·
Personally (having spent a career amongst lawsuits) I would go at it in this order: 1) I'm a nice guy and I understand people make mistakes. I hate this happened. Thankfully I wasn't out in the wild today 4-wheeling. Whew! I'm glad you called me! 2) Yup, it was bone dry. I did some research and found that the following parts may have been damaged: X, Y, Z 3) Since premature failure wouldn't be detected till much farther down the line, I feel like I have to get these inspected now. 4) I'm sure you'll understand but given what's happened I'd only feel comfortable if the dealer inspected. 5) Would you rather have the dealer inspect and replace as deemed necessary, or would you rather just tear it down yourselves and replace all of X, Y, and Z, whether you believe there's any damage or not. (And of course, I'd want to see the insides while it's apart). That would be my initial approach, very friendly, very reasonable, very "shit happensy." If they refuse those two options, I'd ask what they propose. I'd listen. Realize that a lawsuit will be a sunavabitch, with no guarantees of winning, and if you win, no guarantees you'll get the money out of them. If you win, the judge doesn't stand there and demand they peel off a roll of hundreds and hand them to you. She gives you a judgment. Now it's up to you to collect a lot of the time (depending on jurisdiction.) I might eventually threaten a lawsuit (through my atty, in writing, never verbally myself. NEVER! "I'm gonna sue you!" is a cliche, and causes folks to get mad and say stuff back to you that backs both of you into a corner from which it's hard to retreat without losing face, and that's hard for a guy to do." But I'd probably only threaten over a matter like this. I might actually sue if they absolutely stonewalled and would do nothing for me, AND if I had some documentation that what happened actually happened. What if you show up in court with nothing but a "He called and said... and then I checked and sure enough..." and he shows up with, "Nope, none of that ever happened" ? But far better would be getting 1/2 of what I wanted without suing, or 3/4s or whatever. Shoot for a full replacement of X,Y and Z, but settle for him replacing X for sure and only inspecting Y & Z and replacing if they aren't up to spec. Or something like that, based on what the dealer SA tells you they would do if you brought it in. Maybe the dealer would say, "Just drain the oil you put in and check for shavings." Or put a magnet to it. Or whatever. Maybe he'll say take a micrometer to the thinakin pin or something. At any rate, I'd try to get as much out of the shop in question as possible without pissing them off. Maybe the owner is as horrified as you are and will go out of his way to make it right? Could happen...
All this logic and reasonable good sense really takes all the fun out of this thread.
 
#8 ·
^^^ agreed with this.

The more I think about it, the fact he put it in a text message screams "ah crap, we messed up, and I morally can't live with myself by not saying something".

Mistakes happen. Hoping this shop is established enough to understand that it is important to do the right thing in a situation like this.
 
#9 ·
Thanks everyone for the great advice. I saved his text so that I have proof of the event and when it was brought to my attention. After filling the differential I let it set for an hour and drained it (without moving the vehicle) so that I could see how much metal there was in the gear oil. I then removed the diff cover for an inspection. I was not at all happy with the amount of metal shards I found but it was not as bad as I expected - but still too bad to convince me I will have long term reliable components.

I plan to drive it 20 or so miles, drain it again and inspect and document the amount of metal found. I will take that information to my dealership and pay them to provide an inspection and an estimate on the repair / replacement cost.

I will then have a friendly meeting with the 4X4 shop that did the work and give them the opportunity to make it right before I bring out the dealership estimate. If they do the right thing and take care of me I will allow them to repair it (and return all the replaced parts to me). If there is a discrepancy between what they are willing to do and what the dealership recommends then we will review the dealership estimate and try to work out a deal. If that doesn't work I will escalate appropriately, pay to have it fixed myself and deal with the aftermath and the 4X4 shop as a bad actor and seek redress simply based on principal.

Below are pictures of what I found just by filling and draining the diff without driving.
 

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#13 ·
I prefer to keep their name out of the thread until I know if they stand good for the damage. Anyone can make a mistake and I want to give them a chance to make good as I think that is only fair. I can PM you the name if you are OK with that in the interim rather than broadcast it publicly since you are in middle TN.
 
#17 ·
You are correct, but I would still do it with legal representation since anyone who represents themselves has a fool for an attorney :) It would be done for principal and my expectation would be that I would win a judgement, never get paid and have legal fees - but someone has to help the lawyers make a living :)

I've trashed lockers and gears on the trail, but this is the first time I have done at at the 4X4 shop
 
#19 ·
If the tech forgot the gear oil, how did you have fluid all over your garage floor after driving 100 miles.

Work with the shop as NoGaBiker advises.

Litigation is not a likely path to resolution.

The shop likely has liability insurance, if they make a claim you'll be litigating against insurance defense lawyers and automotive experts.

Your proof of immediate damage has been flushed away by your fluid changes and decision to keep driving. All you have now is your non professional photo documentation that is up to subjective interpretation.

Proof of long term damage would require qualified dis assembly and inspection of the moveable parts and probably metallurgical analysis of the hard parts. Either of these will cost WAY more than any repairs.

I'd call the various manufacturers of the hard parts to determine if heat exposure would be detrimental to their warranty. Ask the shop for a break down and rebuild with new bearings, seals, etc and replacement of hard parts that might now have warranty issues.

Better yet, if the shop is a stable business get a shop credit for the same or higher value and give it some time.
 
#22 ·
Obviously you have never drained a diff. You never get all the gear lube out. When I pulled into the garage, what little remaining diff fluid that was in there slowly seeped through the gap created by the loose diff cover as it cooled. I had around 10-12 large drips on the floor a floor that has never had any grease on it previously (new house). It is a stained concrete so it allowed the small amount of grease to spread over a much greater area than standard concrete which would absorb it - the good news is it cleaned up nicely.

A lot of your advice is sound, but the implication is - if they don't cover it - it is not worth fighting over $2k of components. That may well be true, but if I let them off free, then they will repeat the process with others. That is why I say it is a matter of principal. Their liability insurance would not kick in unless the amounts were significantly more than the cost of these components so the insurance attorneys will not be involved unless I sue for damages over and above the cost of the components. That is not my intent. I am not asking for reimbursement for the cost of a loaner vehicle, lost time, stress,... I just want my jeep fixed properly so that I have peace of mind when I go on the trail that it is in the best possible shape it can be.
 
#20 ·
I would be leery of having them ever touch my rig again. If they can't even remember to tighten the small bolts how can you let them tear down the whole assembly?

If it where mine I would drain it again to get any of the burnt oil out then replace with a really quality diff oil. I would call it lesson learned. There is a pretty good chance that since you never went into 4WD that you'll be OK.

Wonder if the truss work voids the OEM warrantee?
 
#23 ·
If there's any serious damage I think it would manifest sooner rather than later. Just having the trusses welded to the axle housing sometimes results in problems with the seals. I'd go find a place where I could run it in 4WD and listen for ugly noises and leaks.

Look at the bright side at least you have the new trusses installed.

A friend of mine with a JKU took his rig in to the dealer. They forgot to fill his transfer case and replace the drain plug. He saw small leaks so crawled under with a flashlight. They had driven it for a week.
 
#25 ·
The problem is that if I were going to have to replace the gears and the locker I would have opted for a Dynatrac ProRock. Now I have the cost of the trussing and still have to replace the gears and locker. I flushed it again this morning trying to determine how much metal was in the diff fluid and it is substantial. I have kept all of the fluid drained just incase I need proof, but the amount of metal suspended in the diff fluid make it look like fine glitter. My fear is these small metal particles will shorten the life of the locker substantially due to abrasion - causing more metal particles.

Heard from the shop an hour ago. They think it is probably just the bearings that are eating themselves and they are willing to replace the seals and carrier bearings at their expense. He did say he would give me a bigger discount on new gears if I wanted him to re-gear front and back while he was replacing the front carrier bearings.

My argument is that:

1) The heat created by running with no diff fluid can change the temper of the metal in the gears, carrier and lockers and impact their strength and longevity. Everyone is having their gears cryogenically treated to strengthen them - I had mine heated to extreme.
2) The amount of metal that has been created in the diff will cause long term problems with the locker since you cannot get it cleaned up enough to guarantee no abrasion in the future..

I want the gears, locker and all bearings and seals replaced and the diff housing flushed out entirely. This is a 2016 Rubicon with only 3100 miles. It should be back to nearly new condition.

Below is a pic of the metal suspended in the diff fluid
 

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#24 ·
When he texted you to NOT drive your jeep, what DID he tell you to do?

Honestly I don't get this jumping in the bandwagon to teach this guy a lesson. He is obviously consciences about his work - he realized the issue after the fact and made contact.

It could happen to anyone. Maybe a final procedure issue, delegation issue or internal communication issue. Somebody in that shop caught it (albeit a little late). Sounds like it was just released too early.

What did they tell you to do?
 
#26 ·
The only consolation now is that when they do replace those parts I would bet they have one of their better mechanics on the job. Usually would be the case with a screw up like this one.

Good luck and hope they get it fixed to your satisfaction.
 
#30 ·
Just talked with the owner. He is agreeing to cover the cost of everything except the locker as he feels that it will be fine. He is even going to send a tow truck tomorrow to come get it. I'll take that deal but will order a new locker if I can find one with 1 or 2 day shipping for my own piece of mind.

I am happy he stood up and made this right. Mistakes happen. It's how you respond to them that makes all the difference.
 
#32 ·
Glad everything worked out for you.
I tend to agree that the locker will probably be ok.
 
#36 ·
Curious how this turned out, OP.

Oh man, new Rubicon with just 3100 miles and you voided the warranty with the trusses (depending on dealer), damn......I would be royally pissed, and I doubt I would have let them touch it again.
 
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