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Old 12-18-2010, 04:11 PM   #31
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He was down with the flu and is waiting to hear from you, Sinister.
I just ordered Z-Beams. Didn't tell the wife the price.
Pray for me.

Somebody make me an offer on my Hella housings...

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Old 12-18-2010, 07:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilldweller
He was down with the flu and is waiting to hear from you, Sinister.
I just ordered Z-Beams. Didn't tell the wife the price.
Pray for me.

Somebody make me an offer on my Hella housings...
How much were the z beams?

I will be patiently waiting for your review.

If I get a set of the z beams I can give my other housings to my buddy with the TJ.

Not to hijack but I was also hoping you could point me towards a good set of driving lights. I am happy with my lighting close up. I am looking for something with a good long range punch that can double down on the high beam spread if you get my drift. More than happy with the lights you have led me to so far.

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Old 12-18-2010, 09:10 PM   #33
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re: driving lights
I kept a link from a few months ago that had a 2 part beam in one light unit: a diffuse fog unit and a long distance ultra bright road legal driving light.

Changing computers and having a crashed backup a couple times wiped out my links.

I bet helldweller knows exactly what it was. I'm also hoping to get the link to the famed 'extreme offroad camper' set up he was towing.

Please advise.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:21 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeeperJake
re: driving lights
I kept a link from a few months ago that had a 2 part beam in one light unit: a diffuse fog unit and a long distance ultra bright road legal driving light.

Changing computers and having a crashed backup a couple times wiped out my links.

I bet helldweller knows exactly what it was. I'm also hoping to get the link to the famed 'extreme offroad camper' set up he was towing.

Please advise.
I believe the ipf 968 has a dual beam pattern.

I am looking to basically copy exactly what my hella e codes look like on high beam with the philips xtreme power bulbs. Of course better throw or brighter in that range would not hurt.

I am looking at the hella 4000 compact or something like it. These will also be used offroad only.

If using the hella 4000 I am not sure what beam pattern is going to get me what I want.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:05 PM   #35
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I've got a pair of Hella 4000 (unless I've got the model number wrong) as accessory road driving lights mounted under my Ram honeycomb grill. They were IIRC 6" black plastic units, thin front to back for cramped space mount. Used for about 4 years, they really weren't doing a very impressive job. And the much touted 'Silver Star' headlamp replacements were crappola as well. We have extremely dark nights here with lots of heavy rainfall and mist this time of year, as well as stark black country roads with most lacking fog lines.

I search near and far for upgrades and contacted a guy at Phillips.

Both the Stern(?) Candlepower site and the following contact gave me great advise that seems to be working far better than what I had.

I got a pair of replacement headlight bulbs: Philips Xtreme Power 9007 9007XTP__2-PACK 1 37.00
65/55W / HB5

AND a pair of Hella replacement bulbs (sorry I lost the product ID). While I haven't been out on the road at night but once since making the replacement, they do represent an incredible improvement given both sets totaled about $76 delivered. It seems like nearly twice the light from the same housings.'

These are not killer off-road monsters, just serious upgrades to standard bulbs. So far I'm satisfied pending longer comparative use.

Give customer service specialist Kenny Franklin a call to see if he might help. phone at (301) 340-0224 between 10:00 AM and 4:00 PM Eastern time Monday through Friday.

I have no connection with the company. I've used their light just once in the couple weeks I've had them but it is a marked upgrade for the money. YMMV
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:32 PM   #36
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Are you saying you replaced your headlight bulbs and hella 4000 bulbs?

I am already running upgraded housings and bulbs for heads. I am wondering if the hella 4000 will respond well to the same xtreme power bulb upgrade. I have searched high and low.

Some people love the 4000 and the 4000 compact while others come away unimpressed. I know it is a popular mod to convert them to hid which I have thought about but I'm not sure I want to go that route.

The regular 4000 is rather large though. I really would prefer to work from that size or smaller package to achieve what I am after.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:56 PM   #37
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Yes, replaced headlight bulbs AND the stock Hella bulbs. Both sets for total of about $76 delivered. Couldn't find a deal like that, backed by a lighting pro insuring I got the best choice available for my application. The Hella bulbs were a newer product of the Phillips company....or perhaps that was the sales pitch on the headlight units.

I'll go out tomorrow and look at the Hella model # to make sure. The bulb is a small pig tailed halogen that fits into the larger clear-lensed unit which mounts anywhere you chose.

The Hellas in my on-road use were not strictly 'driving lights' as in piercing long distance units, but with clear lenses and 55W they were more like a standard high-beam headlight. Maybe after 4 years they were getting weak, as I had several long night drives where I had to use them heavily and in over 100 miles got *NO* opposing drives flash to dim. They were bright enough when new to drive at speed without headlights, so perhaps they simply deteriorated.

This kind of upgrade can be really spendy. And illegal on-road use in Oregon can be a strict liability with expensive consequences, so I strive to insure not exceeding DOT limits. These do the job. I'm sure there's better for way more money.

I like the size of these Hellas as the lens is the same as an old single round headlight, and are trim enough to fit in the space between my radiator and grill with no rubbing.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:55 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ColdSRT View Post
How much were the z beams?

I will be patiently waiting for your review.

If I get a set of the z beams I can give my other housings to my buddy with the TJ.

Not to hijack but I was also hoping you could point me towards a good set of driving lights. I am happy with my lighting close up. I am looking for something with a good long range punch that can double down on the high beam spread if you get my drift. More than happy with the lights you have led me to so far.
The Z-Beams are $111 each and he has to drive across the border to his other warehouse to get them out of cold storage; they haven't been in production for almost 20 years.
I'm looking forward to them with the Phillips Xtreme bulbs.

It's hard to predict what somebody will like in an auxiliary light. It's very easy to "impress" the eye with stuff that doesn't really help you see --- and that's one of the big problems these days, gimmicks, smoke & mirrors.
I really like the Hella Rallye 4000 Metal Euro Beam, PN-H12560021. The light from it is uniform, fairly long-throw, and pretty wide. I like halogens for drivers for their fast on/off cycling.


For offroad only, I'll take a cheap-o pair of HIDs anytime. If I'm offroad I just want light and lots of it. I don't care if its focused.
I did tint my HID lenses yellow to get rid of the blues but I could've done that with a bulb swap too. But I like the yellow lens...
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:14 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sinister
Since you're the resident lighting expert, I wanted to pick your brain.

First, I installed a set of IPF 968 driving lights. Right now, they use the included 55w bulbs. They also came with 100w bulbs, but I'm hesitant to use them. I plan on using these as my high beams (more on that in a minute) so I want to keep them legal. What 55w bulb would you recommend for this situation? They use H3 bulbs. I'm leaning toward the German spec Philips bulbs.

Second, I am going to be purchasing the IPF H4 conversion kit. I'm going to dump the blue tinted bulbs that come with the kit for a set of the Philips Extreme Power H4 bulbs. Are these Philips the way to go here? After doing some research about this kit, I've read that the high beams are focused a bit too high, but the low beam light is outstanding. Hence the desire to use my driving lights as my high beams.

I've tried contacting Daniel Stern a couple times to no avail, so that's not an option. This complete project looks to cost me about $250, which from my understanding is cheaper than one of his kits, but also not quite as good. I'd prefer to do this without adding relays and new wiring and so on, so this looks to be the best plug and play setup out there.
I wouldn't call him an expert on lighting or anything else. There are several posts about lighting in which he claim that some bulbs only trick your eyes into seeing better at night. Just about any bulb will be better then the OEM bulb and the more you have to spend the better result.
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:18 AM   #40
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i own a set of the ipf 968's. the dual reflector design does give a good balance of width and distance, but they are definitely better as driving lights, not hardcore offroad lights. at least with the 55w bulbs. i haven't tried the 100w bulbs that came with them yet.

it looks like i'm not going to have the cash to do a full upgrade, so i think i may try the philips xtreme power h13 in the stock housings and try the 100w bulbs in my driving lights.
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:39 AM   #41
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I wouldn't call him an expert on lighting or anything else. There are several posts about lighting in which he claim that some bulbs only trick your eyes into seeing better at night. Just about any bulb will be better then the OEM bulb and the more you have to spend the better result.
DUH..^^
Sorry to burst your bubble(not really) But Bill has been a wealth of info for those seeking better illumination....

FYI...most of us consider Bill to be the "resident expert".
(I doubt that he will admit it though)

I darn sure appreciate him sharing his knowledge...
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Old 12-19-2010, 03:01 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilldweller
The Z-Beams are $111 each and he has to drive across the border to his other warehouse to get them out of cold storage; they haven't been in production for almost 20 years.
I'm looking forward to them with the Phillips Xtreme bulbs.

It's hard to predict what somebody will like in an auxiliary light. It's very easy to "impress" the eye with stuff that doesn't really help you see --- and that's one of the big problems these days, gimmicks, smoke & mirrors.
I really like the Hella Rallye 4000 Metal Euro Beam, PN-H12560021. The light from it is uniform, fairly long-throw, and pretty wide. I like halogens for drivers for their fast on/off cycling.

For offroad only, I'll take a cheap-o pair of HIDs anytime. If I'm offroad I just want light and lots of it. I don't care if its focused.
I did tint my HID lenses yellow to get rid of the blues but I could've done that with a bulb swap too. But I like the yellow lens...
That price is not too bad. I really want to see what they do with the philips bulbs. I love what the hella housings did for my lighting but there are some random artifacts and the side lighting could be better. That is just me being picky.

For the aux lights I am not worried about DOT specs or quick turn on because they will be strictly for trail use. I just want to light up a decently wide path but distance is more important.

It seems that there are hundreds of HID driving lights out there. I also want closer to a 4300k spectrum. I have seen the ones from schucks ( also carried at other auto parts stores) with the red ring and internal ballast. Everyone I know that has them says often one of the lights won't turn on so you have to toggle the switch a few times. Not going that route.

Then there are the the hella 4000 xenon at $500 a light. Anything in between with a good reputation? Considering I want it to cast like the hella high beam for distance would I still want a euro HID or a spot?

Mr sinister,

Maybe you should grab up the hella housings from HD. I'm sure the price would be great and they are a huge improvement. Maybe not z beams but still very good lighting for the price. Then you could pick up the harness when money allows.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:50 PM   #43
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That price is not too bad. I really want to see what they do with the philips bulbs. I love what the hella housings did for my lighting but there are some random artifacts and the side lighting could be better. That is just me being picky.
It's not being picky; it's being honest.
The Hellas definitely give too much foreground lighting, not enough to the sides, and have a few "ghosts" here and there.
But isn't amazing how much better they are than stock? I mean, really; the stockers suck...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSRT View Post
For the aux lights I am not worried about DOT specs or quick turn on because they will be strictly for trail use. I just want to light up a decently wide path but distance is more important.

It seems that there are hundreds of HID driving lights out there. I also want closer to a 4300k spectrum. I have seen the ones from schucks ( also carried at other auto parts stores) with the red ring and internal ballast. Everyone I know that has them says often one of the lights won't turn on so you have to toggle the switch a few times. Not going that route.

Then there are the the hella 4000 xenon at $500 a light. Anything in between with a good reputation? Considering I want it to cast like the hella high beam for distance would I still want a euro HID or a spot?
HIDs throw a bodacious amount of light but have drawbacks. As far as spectral power distribution is concerned, they're fairly atrocious. Concomitantly, their coloring rendering index is well below that of burning filament types.
What they do offer is a CCT closer to noonday sun ---- but is that what we want at night?
Not my eyes; that's why I tinted mine.
Mind you, not everybody is as sensitive to blue light.

I bought my HIDx lights from RDM Offroad; they offer other budget-oriented HIDs as well. The HIDx product has worked perfectly for me, doing what it does well, throwing lots of poorly focused light down the road.
Since the cheapies usually come with 6000K capsules, you could buy a set and source a set of replacement 3000-4300K capsules from somewhere like DDM Tuning...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robd225 View Post
I wouldn't call him an expert on lighting or anything else. There are several posts about lighting in which he claim that some bulbs only trick your eyes into seeing better at night. Just about any bulb will be better then the OEM bulb and the more you have to spend the better result.
No, I'm not a lighting expert.
But I am being mentored by two men who are. And I do have expert accreditation in other electrical fields and work in a test and measurement training lab. I'm merely passing along things I know to be true and a few opinions.

You're misquoting me, btw. I didn't say that PIAA and Sylvania Silverstars "trick your eyes into seeing better at night" --- I said they trick your eyes into making you think you're able to see better.
And price doesn't equate to better lighting all the time. The PIAA bulbs are a testimonial to that.


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I darn sure appreciate him sharing his knowledge...
Thanks, krutj.
Sometimes I bang my head against the wall and wonder if I'm just flinging feces. But then I'll get an encouraging email and I'm reminded that its worth it.
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:49 PM   #44
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Well, after the holiday is done with and I can move on back to my normal life, I am going to contact Daniel Stern like you suggested Hilldweller, for the headlight upgrade (I have a 2010 Rubicon 2door) since I am very unhappy with the stock lighting. Now, what would be good for bumper mounted driving lights, and, are driving lights actually legal on the street in NY? I thought that they were pretty much for off-road driving? I dont mean to sound stupid.....I know they are called driving lights but just thought you couldnt use them on the road (or make sure you turn them off when cars approach) does anyone hook them up to come on with high beams and then back off when you switch back to lows, or just use a seperate switch so you can use them when you want? I live in a very small town with mostly "back roads" which you can travel without encountering another vehicle, but lots of deer to keep an eye out for. I would like to be able to see farther ahead and off to the sides a little better on these roads and on dirt roads.
Also, is there an upgrad for the factory "fog lights" to make them better? I would also like to add a set of the factory fog lights into the rear bumper for back-up lights, but I would like to have them switched also so I could use them for setting up camp or things like that, is that possible? Sorry for the long questions, I dont mean to take away from the original posters concerns, thank you for your help, you knowledge of lighting amazes me......
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:28 PM   #45
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The Z-Beams are $111 each and he has to drive across the border to his other warehouse to get them out of cold storage; they haven't been in production for almost 20 years.
Awesome. That's some serious coin for some serious lighting. So what are you getting your bride for Christmas

Out of curiosity, did you get a price on some Marchals?
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:04 AM   #46
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...I am going to contact Daniel Stern like you suggested Hilldweller, for the headlight upgrade... ....Now, what would be good for bumper mounted driving lights, and, are driving lights actually legal on the street in NY?
After you fit a pair of Cibies, H4 bulbs, harness, & sockets, you'll find that you won't need supplemental lighting nearly as often.
Each state varies a bit so check the NY code. But typically you can have a set of foglights on with lowbeams and a set of drivers on with highbeams; they're both supposed to be relayed in a fashion that nary the twain shall meet...
Some jurisdictions take it very seriously and will ticket for non-dot/ece lights; if that's the case, shop carefully since most auxiliary lights made for Jeeps are "offroad only" and not meeting street certs.
DS sells Oscars which are totally legal; the Hellas I keep ballyhooing are for offroad
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Also, is there an upgrad for the factory "fog lights" to make them better?
Not an easy answer or easy fix. A few folks have done mods --- I don't think it's worth the time since foglights are mainly ornamental after installing Cibie headlights. Foglights are only worth a dang for providing low, wide, foreground lighting. It's only good lighting for very heavy fog and rock crawling. If that's what you're really after, leave the stock fogs on there and mound a discreet set of amber Duallies; these would cut the murk nicely. Not quite "legal" though...
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I would also like to add a set of the factory fog lights into the rear bumper for back-up lights, but I would like to have them switched also so I could use them for setting up camp or things like that, is that possible?
A pair of dually floods mounted in back would do the trick.
I have a friend that mounted them by the third eye; I've also seen Solstice cubes mounted right on top of the tail lights.

.

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Awesome. That's some serious coin for some serious lighting. So what are you getting your bride for Christmas

Out of curiosity, did you get a price on some Marchals?
We're married long enough that we pick & buy our own gifts and thank each other.

I didn't price the Marchals. It's the photometry. I know they put out about 10% higher overall cd but the Cibie is so much neater...
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:07 PM   #47
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A pair of dually floods mounted in back would do the trick.
I have a friend that mounted them by the third eye; I've also seen Solstice cubes mounted right on top of the tail lights.
I actually had that same idea and ordered a single "dually" over the weekend and plan to mount it on top of the left side tail light - pretty sure there's room and enough strength for such a small light. Will update with how it works and a photo if it does work.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:41 PM   #48
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I sure can't wait to see what the Z beams do for you Bill. I am interested in the pattern. I love the new lights but your right, there are flaws. Really hate to pick on them when comparing to stock but the truth is the truth.

I really appreciate the info on the HIDs. I think I have made up my mind and you are probably going to kick me. I have decided to spend a bit more and go with the lightforce 170 striker HIDs. For more than one reason but two mainly. I got to play with a set this weekend and I am very happy with the features and output. So you can put a check next to lighting output. The second reason is durability. All the truckers run them up here on the haul road. So do all the police cruisers. I talked to some trucker friends and they all say they just flat out hold up better than the rest. That is important in these conditions. If they hold up to the most adverse conditions you can throw at them they have to be worth a try. Gonna give them a shot.

I like the price on those rigid dually units. They are cheaper than the solstice but also bigger. Same draw so I conclude it is 4 2.5 watt led's as opposed to 1 10 watter. They also claim 1000 lumens in one spot and then 1100 in another. Kind of suspect. I did read where someone had compared them to the solstice and said the rigid was a hair brighter. They are bigger so they would not work where I mounted my first four solstice pods but they will work in every other spot I had planned for the solstice. Like that they have amber led options as well as no branding on the face of the lamp. The solstice has a blueish tinge to it that comes out green under my phone cam. I really like them a lot but want more. I am going to run some in an overhead rack. Forward facing and two on either side for lighting up on the trail or camping if needed. One or two for backup lighting and possibly two on the pillar aimed down and out for trail lighting.

I finally uploaded some photos of the upgraded headlights and leds. I didn't get any befores. You all know how bad they are. The led spots need to be aimed down some more. I'm lighting tree tops down the road. It would make the road surface light up more than you see in the pics if I were to do so.


Headlights: Rallylights hellla ecode kit with philips xtreme power bulbs

Aux: Vision X Solstice Solo. Two spots @ 10 degree spread and two elipticals(euro) @ 45/15 degree spread. All mounted in grill slits.

Lows

Highs

Led

Lows+led

Highs+led

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Old 12-20-2010, 08:22 PM   #49
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Here's a couple pics of my rear lighting solution, recessed and switched w/relay. Very handy to have light when not in reverse.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:34 PM   #50
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Here's a couple pics of my rear lighting solution, recessed and switched w/relay. Very handy to have light when not in reverse.
I plan to do the same with my rear lighting. Switch it so I can choose to light them whenever. I have an lod rear bumper on the way and comes with 55 watt halogens in pretty much the same location as yours. I might switch those out for led too. Bare minimum I will be adding an elliptical/flood led or two higher up to get broader coverage. Yours is looking good.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:54 PM   #51
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I plan to do the same with my rear lighting. Switch it so I can choose to light them whenever. I have an lod rear bumper on the way and comes with 55 watt halogens in pretty much the same location as yours. I might switch those out for led too. Bare minimum I will be adding an elliptical/flood led or two higher up to get broader coverage. Yours is looking good.
Thanks and back at ya!!

You certainly should have all the illumination that you need, having a switched light has been handy this time of year, just for general stuff...
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:02 PM   #52
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Your setup looks to cast plenty of light for seeing stuff back there. I notice how bad mine is now. If it's real dark I can't see much at all behind me. I think all my other lights will be much easier to setup than the LEDs in the grill. Headlight upgrade was cake.

I love your wheels. Mine are spaced out in preparation for the lift but would like to do what you have done. Was that paint or bedliner?

I did all the homework on wheels and tires just have other crap to buy first. My buddy with the TJ liked my selections so much and had the money so he ordered them up. 35x12.5 km2's and procomp 7069 in flat black. I rolled them out and looked at them next to my jeep and even without my lift they looked incredible. I can't stop daydreaming about them.


....................ok back to the scheduled lighting discussion.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:11 AM   #53
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I think I have made up my mind and you are probably going to kick me. I have decided to spend a bit more and go with the lightforce 170 striker HIDs.
Nice pics. The reason the Solstice looks green is because it is.... ....but that's the state of LED technology at the moment. It's evolving very fast and is being pushed like crazy now.
And the next evolution of adaptive HID lighting will be unveiled soon. 25 watt is what they want and an elimination of the blue effect. Better light and fewer carbon emissions ------ highbeams that come on automatically, light that "bends" around corners.

You're going to find that the Lightforce has a really really bright hot-spot dead-center in front of you like a lightning bolt from Thor-almighty, then a dip, then a smaller hot-spot to the far side.
Except for the polycarb lens hazing over, they're very durable though. Plastic has plus and minus qualities.
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:31 AM   #54
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im pretty electrically challenged, could you explain how to hook up the rear lights so they come on in reverse, and also have a toggle switch to put them on when you want. Do you just tap into the reverse lights wire (solder with heat shrink?) then how do you wire the switch? do they make a solder connector for running one wire to two or more, if you know what im trying to say, dont know how to explain it....for tapping into wires thanks
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:22 AM   #55
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I love your wheels. Mine are spaced out in preparation for the lift but would like to do what you have done. Was that paint or bedliner?
My wheels are all rattle can primer/paint, the grill is rattle can bedliner. The paint is holding up very well in our Winter conditions.(surprising me).
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by monkers View Post
im pretty electrically challenged, could you explain how to hook up the rear lights so they come on in reverse, and also have a toggle switch to put them on when you want. Do you just tap into the reverse lights wire (solder with heat shrink?) then how do you wire the switch? do they make a solder connector for running one wire to two or more, if you know what im trying to say, dont know how to explain it....for tapping into wires thanks
Please be very careful when tapping into the Jeeps CANBUS electrical system....

I stayed away from any splicing, so I can't help with your question.
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:09 PM   #57
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Please be very careful when tapping into the Jeeps CANBUS electrical system....

I stayed away from any splicing, so I can't help with your question.
Put a switch on your dash, pull fused power from the aux terminal in your fusebox or from the battery, use the reverse hot to trip a relay ---- this is the "safe & legal" method.
Legally, the lights can't come on automatically; that's why your reverse lights are so wimpy. They're just meant as indicators that you're backing and give a little navigation light.
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:46 PM   #58
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thank you again Hilldweller
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:41 PM   #59
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Nice pics. The reason the Solstice looks green is because it is.... ....but that's the state of LED technology at the moment. It's evolving very fast and is being pushed like crazy now.
And the next evolution of adaptive HID lighting will be unveiled soon. 25 watt is what they want and an elimination of the blue effect. Better light and fewer carbon emissions ------ highbeams that come on automatically, light that "bends" around corners.

You're going to find that the Lightforce has a really really bright hot-spot dead-center in front of you like a lightning bolt from Thor-almighty, then a dip, then a smaller hot-spot to the far side.
Except for the polycarb lens hazing over, they're very durable though. Plastic has plus and minus qualities.
Camera must be better than my eyes. What I meant was that to human eyes they have that damn 6k hid blue hue. Not a fan of that but they do work great for close up trail work while using little power. I am impressed with what these led's can do but I wish they were in a better color temp. Still plan to play with the rigids but I have a good hookup on the solstice pods so I will probably stay with them unless the rigids prove to be a better product.

I didn't notice the light pattern on the lightforce you mentioned but we had them aimed straight out and I adjusted the pattern with the housing to pull it just off the spot setting and it really did just what I wanted for somewhat high (like a highbeam) long range lighting. The color was not as bad as I thought it would be. These were 4200k he said. The filters are pretty sweet as well. I get you on the hazing. I had seen that on some lights. Seemed to me the ones with the hazing looked to be in service for some time. I asked about this and the truckers said it happens the lower you mount them and the longer they are exposed. Covers are pretty cheap so not a huge concern. I was looking and I think I am going to grab up six different covers in different beam spreads and colors. I plan to run black for the most part. I will only use the lights off road so when I hit the trailhead I can take off the black covers and run whatever the situation demands. Should save me some time on replacing covers due to hazing. Your just like me and think of every aspect. I like that about you. Thanks again.
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:01 AM   #60
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Bear in mind when you pick covers that Lightforce markets a couple that aren't very good. The blue and amber ones are just silly.
Stick with clear, black, & yellow.
They are very robust. I've personally seen one shot by a shotgun.

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