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Old 03-17-2014, 12:54 AM   #61
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This is not specific to the Prodigy kit. All the Jeep forced induction kits use Diablosport tuning. Maybe you should contact RIPP, Magnuson or Prodigy to get more details about how they create the tune file that they send you and ask their opinion on the necessity of getting the tune tweaked locally on a dyno. They all spend months fine tuning with their kits both on the dyno and the street, so it doesn't make sense to me that just an afternoon on a dyno would make the difference between "NOT good enough" and "good enough or better".

Of course, you are not "locked down" to Diablosport CMR tuners. If you can find a tuning shop you trust that has other tuning tools that can work with your Jeep, then go for it. Of course the problem there is that you'd have to start the tune from scratch, rather than simply making adjustments to an already good tune provided by the turbo/supercharger manufacturer. I haven't looked into what other options are available, but the fact that everyone is choosing Diablosport seems to say something.
From my understanding, Diablo is the only company that fully cracked the Jeeps brain, and is keeping it tightly closed. From my vast experiences with some of the best tuners in the industry, Most prefer to start from scratch rather than mess with a map, they said it's easier for them (and less costly for the customer since it usually takes less time.) As I stated earlier, you can setup a "safe" tune out of the box, but it will be far from optimal. The tune will always be running rich (no company is going to put out tunes that are too lean with the risk of grenading customer engines) and probably at around 70% of their potential, with around 30% being that margin of safety. But, no point in speculating, lets see what the Prodigy guys come up with, and I'd love to see their dyno as well as their AFR maps.

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Old 03-17-2014, 01:13 AM   #62
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I'm fine with having a safety margin built into the provided tune

I'd prefer a conservative safe tune with a bit less power rather than a pushed-to-the-limits full potential tune

The few people I've heard from with the 3.8 Prodigy kit have been very happy with the smoothness and drivability of their turbo jeeps, so I wouldn't expect any less from Prodigy's tune for the 3.6 kit.

I wish this kit would get released already so we don't have to continue fighting the urge to speculate.

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Old 03-17-2014, 01:14 AM   #63
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I don't quite understand what you're saying here? Are you implying that the e-mailed tune from Prodigy/RIPP/Magnuson would be much weaker than claimed or possible, and that you would need a local dyno tune to unleash full potential?
I'm saying from the standpoint of providing the safest most effective application of forced induction on an engine a real time dyne tune and street tune are best. As has been stated a canned and even modified tune based on some data logging is fine but not best. Just because they can doesn't mean it's best. For me personally, if I'm going to boost my $40K+ JK I'd like it specifically tuned real time along with a street tune. I don't know much about Prodigy and am in no way disparaging them. I'm sure they spend countless hours developing the best possible product in order to bring it to market. Off the shelf maps that get tweaked based on your OEM tune being sent in along with modifications down the line over email sounds great BUT there are better ways.

My point about the test beds they are developing these things on is that they ARE getting the real time tune and tweaks along with quite extensive attention to detail on the road logging. What works for hundreds of 3.6L pentastars may not work for 10's of thousands of Pentastars.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:54 AM   #64
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Curious to see how this turns out. Only concerns I would have is running the high flow filter offroad. The dirt from the camp roads up here would sand blast the impeller to Hell. Be nice to get foam or run a filter bag on it at the very least. The other concern would be the pipeing route, if it goes low enough could be in trouble from bottoming out.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:19 AM   #65
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I don't quite understand what you're saying here? Are you implying that the e-mailed tune from Prodigy/RIPP/Magnuson would be much weaker than claimed or possible, and that you would need a local dyno tune to unleash full potential?
It is great to start with a canned tune, but not all vehicles are the same and no 2 vehicles want the same tune.
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:43 AM   #66
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I don't quite understand what you're saying here? Are you implying that the e-mailed tune from Prodigy/RIPP/Magnuson would be much weaker than claimed or possible, and that you would need a local dyno tune to unleash full potential?
Exactly. Canned tunes (generally speaking, not going to talk specifically about Prodigy) have larger margin for error, but generally not efficient nor full power. Gas mileage usually sucks with a canned map (thanks to the map running rich) and power is probably at 70% of potential. Do not mistake 70% of potential for a 30% margin of "safety." If you want to run 8psi on your setup, then running 8psi to 100% of its potential is not "dangerous. I am not talking about instead of 8psi you run 30% more and run 11psi...Im talking about extracting maximum efficiency of the original intended 8. I hope someone comes out with a full piggyback or a standalone (although that would be difficult for a JK) so that all these companies can have an easier time selling these kits (and reduce cost).

Do you have an ETA of this kit being released?
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:44 AM   #67
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It is great to start with a canned tune, but not all vehicles are the same and no 2 vehicles want the same tune.
In my personal experience, companies included a canned tune just so that you can safely drive the vehicle to a tuner. They did not intend for the vehicle to be run with the canned map on a daily basis.
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:45 AM   #68
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Curious to see how this turns out. Only concerns I would have is running the high flow filter offroad. The dirt from the camp roads up here would sand blast the impeller to Hell. Be nice to get foam or run a filter bag on it at the very least. The other concern would be the pipeing route, if it goes low enough could be in trouble from bottoming out.
Seems like it would be easy as pie to run this setup with the AEV snorkel. Nice cool air, plus if you run the prefilter, you get double filtration!
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:12 AM   #69
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Do you have an ETA of this kit being released?
Yes, but I'm not sure that it's intended for public broadcast. By being more silent about it, they at least avoid the backlash the RIPP received when they kept pushing back their release date. Based on the info I have right now, I personally think that I will have the kit in my hands around the end of April.

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In my personal experience, companies included a canned tune just so that you can safely drive the vehicle to a tuner. They did not intend for the vehicle to be run with the canned map on a daily basis.
That is definitely not the message that I'm getting from RIPP, Magnuson or Prodigy. The intent is that the kit and tune they provide is the complete package of everything you need. No additional tuning required/intended. It almost sounds to me like there's a big misunderstanding between your past experience with mod-manufacturer-provided tunes and what tools/capabilities are available now for tuning via the Diablosport CMR software.

Stock OEM tunes are also "canned" tunes. They don't tune each vehicle on a dyno at the factory. It seems to me like the difference between the tune from RIPP/Magnuson/Prodigy and a custom tune would be more like comparing the OEM tune to a custom tune on a stock vehicle. The provided tune should be good, safe and fairly refined, but with some margin available to squeeze out a bit more with a custom tune.
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:56 AM   #70
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Yes, but I'm not sure that it's intended for public broadcast. By being more silent about it, they at least avoid the backlash the RIPP received when they kept pushing back their release date. Based on the info I have right now, I personally think that I will have the kit in my hands around the end of April.



That is definitely not the message that I'm getting from RIPP, Magnuson or Prodigy. The intent is that the kit and tune they provide is the complete package of everything you need. No additional tuning required/intended. It almost sounds to me like there's a big misunderstanding between your past experience with mod-manufacturer-provided tunes and what tools/capabilities are available now for tuning via the Diablosport CMR software.

Stock OEM tunes are also "canned" tunes. They don't tune each vehicle on a dyno at the factory. It seems to me like the difference between the tune from RIPP/Magnuson/Prodigy and a custom tune would be more like comparing the OEM tune to a custom tune on a stock vehicle. The provided tune should be good, safe and fairly refined, but with some margin available to squeeze out a bit more with a custom tune.
Fair enough. I look forward to seeing the results!
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:20 PM   #71
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I had to chime in here. I have a prodigy turbo that I've had installed since last summer on my 2010 JKU with 5.13 gears and 35" tires on heavy ass bead locks. I love it...of course I also got a hell of a deal on it by buying off of some kid that had used it for a couple of thousand miles and then traded in his Jeep. I do not have single regret. It is a totally different vehicle on the road (in a good way of course) and it's off road manners are just as they were beforehand.

I know some of you already know this (and many more refuse to believe) but I can tell you that it works perfectly on road (especially highway use) which is what I wanted more power for (it is my daily after all). And when off road (crawling etc), I can barely tell it's there. I don't get this ignorant attitude that turbos are no good for off roading. People just regurgitate what some supposed (ignorant) expert has stated somewhere on the internet.

I have only one minor dislike of the entire setup and that's that there is a cross pipe that runs just under the rear of the oil pan. I am going to add a skid plate for that and problem solved. Although, I haven't hit it yet.

As for the tune from Prodigy, it was pretty damn good. I have built and tuned multiple turbo cars (including a 1.8L 500hp on ethanol) and I can say I was skeptic at first, but
they do it and it works. Could I get a little more power or efficiency out of it by having it on the dyno myself? No doubt, but I am happy enough to leave it as is. If you want AFRs, I'll hook up one of my LC1s and get you some numbers. I've been wanting to do that anyway, but there always seems to be something more pressing to get done.

End of rant...carry on. Turbos rule! (if your drivetrain can take it of course)
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:39 PM   #72
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I had to chime in here. I have a prodigy turbo that I've had installed since last summer on my 2010 JKU with 5.13 gears and 35" tires on heavy ass bead locks. I love it...of course I also got a hell of a deal on it by buying off of some kid that had used it for a couple of thousand miles and then traded in his Jeep. I do not have single regret. It is a totally different vehicle on the road (in a good way of course) and it's off road manners are just as they were beforehand.

I know some of you already know this (and many more refuse to believe) but I can tell you that it works perfectly on road (especially highway use) which is what I wanted more power for (it is my daily after all). And when off road (crawling etc), I can barely tell it's there. I don't get this ignorant attitude that turbos are no good for off roading. People just regurgitate what some supposed (ignorant) expert has stated somewhere on the internet.

I have only one minor dislike of the entire setup and that's that there is a cross pipe that runs just under the rear of the oil pan. I am going to add a skid plate for that and problem solved. Although, I haven't hit it yet.

As for the tune from Prodigy, it was pretty damn good. I have built and tuned multiple turbo cars (including a 1.8L 500hp on ethanol) and I can say I was skeptic at first, but
they do it and it works. Could I get a little more power or efficiency out of it by having it on the dyno myself? No doubt, but I am happy enough to leave it as is. If you want AFRs, I'll hook up one of my LC1s and get you some numbers. I've been wanting to do that anyway, but there always seems to be something more pressing to get done.

End of rant...carry on. Turbos rule! (if your drivetrain can take it of course)
Im glad to hear it. i just want to go on record and say that first of all, any new kits, superchargers, turbos, gerbils, whatever, are good for us. The more options, the better the competition...we all win. I also want a reliable kit because no one wants to roll around a ticking timebomb, so if prodigy is able to provide a great canned map with a margin of safety, Im all for it. Unlike most people in many turbo threads that respond (its stupid, get a hemi) they fail to realize that ANY new product, even if we hate it, makes us winners because it shows interest, development, etc. I knew that the pentastar would see a heap of aftermarket support (you would see 100 kits on the market if it wasn't for the stupid ECU) because this motor is in every damn chrysler product, so the market is HUGE for the manufacturers. I personally am excited as I have been waiting for a nice turbo setup for a while now.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:50 PM   #73
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Stock OEM tunes are also "canned" tunes.
And this is one of the reasons why we see differences in dyno numbers for the same stock setup, same dyno, same vehicle type. Every engine is different. I have been to to many dyno days and have seen this time and time again.
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:00 PM   #74
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My point was that no one treats the OEM tune as "only intended to let you safely drive to a tuning shop ASAP for a proper tune". If you are the type of person that is happy with leaving an OEM tune alone on a stock vehicle, then you will probably be happy with the Prodigy-provided tune. If you are the type that must custom tune even your stock vehicle just to get the absolute most out of it, then you will want to do the same after installing a turbo/supercharger kit as well. But people shouldn't be generally scared into believing that they *must* get a custom tune after installing one of these turbo/supercharger kits.
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:17 PM   #75
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Not scared as such, just leery. But these companies stand behind there product so I don't really have an issue other than the lack of tuning software available. Coming from Vettes and turbo diesel trucks I find this strange.
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:24 PM   #76
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Not scared as such, just leery. But these companies stand behind there product so I don't really have an issue other than the lack of tuning software available. Coming from Vettes and turbo diesel trucks I find this strange.
Its strange for those of us that have been tuning for a long time, but taking into account the Ft. Knox ECU of the Jeep, it's expected. Manufacturers are trying harder and harder to keep "people out" of their ECUs, and sadly the Wrangler is one of them.
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:49 PM   #77
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OK, I'll bite. I have an '09 6 spd X JK with a 2 1/2 lift and 33 x 12.5 x 17 tires, 3.21 gears. After hrs of research, I opted for Prodigy's kit vs. RIPP. I did not opt for the 12 lbs kit, but that is something that I can always add later on. I will be upfront and will tell you that I do not go off road in it, or crawl over rocks. What I do do is get her naked, and ride it while enjoying life. Do I mall crawl, maybe (I hate malls)... do I like to show her off... ABSOLUTELY. Now that I got that out of the way, I enjoy the Jeep a lot more now than before I installed the turbo. In regards to the tune, before you install the kit, you send an e-mail to Prodigy with your stock tune. They will e-mail you a tune back which you will install on your Jeep via your diablo tuner. Once you are up and running, you have to go out and do some datalog. You send them that file, they will adjust as needed, and send it back to you. Install it, do more data logging, send it to them.. they will send you a new file until it is tuned to THEIR parameters. That is all included in the price. Also, in regards to a BOV, there is a Tial Wastegate included, which vents into the atmosphere... so you do get the woosh sound. I would have rather have it vented into the exhaust just like Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc., but I am ok with it. I have a grin on my face every time I get a chance to ride my black beauty. If they do come out with a kit for the 3.6, and you have the itch for a both a Jeep and a Sports car.. I say give Prodigy a shot. You will not be disappointed.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:15 PM   #78
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Also, in regards to a BOV, there is a Tial Wastegate included, which vents into the atmosphere...
A wastegate is not a BOV. The kit only has a wastegate, and it doesn't vent to atmosphere. It allows exhaust to bypass the turbine of the turbo to control maximum boost. Take a peek at yours and you'll see that it bridges a gap between the up-pipe and down-pipe with no opening to atmosphere. It would be loud as hell if it vented to atmosphere, because it would be like an open header (no mufflers) when it opened up. A BOV would be mounted on the intake pipe somewhere between the intercooler and throttle body.

Looks like someone actually did add a BOV to a prodigy turbo kit. This is not part of the original kit:



(P.S. - this post is all about the existing 3.8 kit; not the new 3.6 kit)
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:38 PM   #79
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BTW - thank you juanblackjk, rlogan, and I think someone else earlier in the thread that also shared their experience with the 3.8 turbo kit. There isn't much info available online for researching the reputation of Prodigy, so I'm glad to hear more positive things about them.

I've only found one negative story about the Prodigy kit on an automatic transmission Jeep that wasn't shifting properly. Symptoms just got worse to the point that I'm not even convinced that it was a problem with Prodigy's tune, and they never did follow-up enough to make me feel like I had the full story. Then again, I'm not worried since I have a manual transmission
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:44 PM   #80
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While I might be incorrect in regards to BOV and Waste gate... Per Garrett's web site, External Wastegates are added to the exhaust plumbing on the exhaust manifold or header. The advantage of an external Wastegates is that the bypassed flow can be reintroduced into the exhaust stream further downstream of the turbine. This tends to improve the turbine’s performance. On racing applications, this Wastegated exhaust flow can be vented directly to atmosphere. I can tell you that when I get on mine, you can definitely hear it it venting.

I don't mean to turn this into a BOV vs. Wastegate argument, I only posted because I read in all the Jeep forums people commenting on why and why not have a turbo or a supercharger on a Jeep. I have the Prodigy kit, and I would highly recommend it. If they come out with the 3.6 kit, I am sure that it will be as good, if not better than the one that I have, which is the 3.8 kit.

Jeep on!
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:23 PM   #81
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Just trying to help you (and others in this thread) understand what you have on your Jeep. It's definitely a wastegate that is NOT vented to atmosphere. Even when not vented to atmosphere, it can be heard (I think it's a fun sound). Take a look at it and it will pretty obvious that the bypassed flow IS re-introduced downstream of the turbine.
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Old 03-17-2014, 07:06 PM   #82
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I have a BOV on mine as well, but you are correct...I don't think they included one originally. My kit was previously installed on a jeep with a manual so the owner had added it. I did have to up the spring rate in it because it had a bad habit of dumping boost at part throttle on the highway...made cruise control useless.
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Old 03-17-2014, 07:26 PM   #83
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While I might be incorrect in regards to BOV and Waste gate... Per Garrett's web site, External Wastegates are added to the exhaust plumbing on the exhaust manifold or header. The advantage of an external Wastegates is that the bypassed flow can be reintroduced into the exhaust stream further downstream of the turbine. This tends to improve the turbine’s performance. On racing applications, this Wastegated exhaust flow can be vented directly to atmosphere. I can tell you that when I get on mine, you can definitely hear it it venting.

I don't mean to turn this into a BOV vs. Wastegate argument, I only posted because I read in all the Jeep forums people commenting on why and why not have a turbo or a supercharger on a Jeep. I have the Prodigy kit, and I would highly recommend it. If they come out with the 3.6 kit, I am sure that it will be as good, if not better than the one that I have, which is the 3.8 kit.

Jeep on!
I usually prefer an external wastegate as it is much easier to control boost creep, but I have also had excellent results with internal ones. Generally small turbos work very well with internal wastegates. They have massively quick spool times as a bonus. Hopefully boost creep won't be an issue.
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Old 03-17-2014, 08:04 PM   #84
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I doubt boost creep will be an issue. It is a nice external Tial wastegate. You can see it just below the turbo in this photo of the 3.8 turbo system (and you can kinda see how it connects to the downpipe):

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Old 03-17-2014, 11:01 PM   #85
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Oh, sweet, so they do use an external. I must have misread the previous posts. Double plus good. What are they doing for manifolds? I thought the pentastar manifolds are part of the head? Are they doing a cut and paste job?
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:19 PM   #86
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For the pentastar, I assume they are just bolting their custom pipes directly to the single exhaust outlet on the head.

Here's some good visuals on what the pentastar has going on for its integrated exhaust manifold:



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Old 03-18-2014, 06:19 PM   #87
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We'll have to wait longer for dyno results

Getting the prototype pipes uninstalled (already done) to setup for production took priority. Dyno testing will happen "probably next week".
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:47 PM   #88
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Interesting. The benefits of having the exhaust manifold built in can save a lot of headaches of stressed/cracked manifolds you see on normal kits. If you are in contact with them, I would advise that they put a thermal blanket over the hot side, but Im sure they are going to do that anyway. Im a little concerned about the power steering fluid reservoir. Seems like it may have been a good idea to move it, but again, that's just talking based on what I see in the photos.

Question, what are they doing for the oil feed/return line? Drilling the pan?
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:54 PM   #89
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By the way, we were talking about the need to fine tune each system on the dyno...remember when I brought up boost creep? The various exhaust systems will (are able to) lean out the mixture, which is a non issue for a supercharger, but on a turbo, a free flow exhaust (or even a downpipe dump) will change things around, so they are going to have to warn customers about running larger diameter/hi flo exhausts.

Another problem (again, if you talk to them, I'd love to hear their answer)...any turbo kit I have ever installed on a vehicle with a cat, the cat was toast inside of 1000 miles. Stock cats simply can't take the abuse. Are they planning to address this with a hiflow cat, a cat delete, an o2 spacer with a straight pipe, a gutted cat, etc.

(P.S.) It may sound like Im bashing the kit, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Im just bringing up potential issues so that they can be addressed before the kit is released so that when it IS released, it is a smooth running kit. Most people who are THINKING about forced induction read horror stories of turbo kits, and thats why most are scared of them. A reliable well thought out system is as reliable as a stock motor, and Im just trying to get this kit there.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:47 PM   #90
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In regards to details like heat blankets, relocating reservoirs, location of catalytic converters, etc... At this point, I'm just going to assume that Prodigy knows what they're doing, wait for them to officially announce details, then start asking questions about things that remain unclear. They're gearing up for production right now already. They're not going to make changes to the kit now just because some guy on the internet contacted them and suggested that they should

If not included already, I personally plan on ceramic coating the exhaust pipes in the turbo kit and adding a turbo blanket. If it's not included already, then I'm sure Prodigy's testing has concluded that it's not necessary for normal use (daily driving). I'd rather just spend a little extra money and get the ceramic coating done up-front before installation for peace of mind that I have done everything reasonable to avoid potential under-hood heat issues when playing around off road (AEV heat reduction hood would be a back-up plan if needed in the future).

Oil return feed: Don't know yet, but the 3.8 kit required drilling the oil pan to install a fitting for the return line, and there was an existing unused oil port on the engine used for the feed line.

High flow exhaust: This is already on my list of questions to ask (Any compatibility concerns? Do they offer additional e-mail tuning services if I change exhaust later after initial installation/tuning?).

Catalytic converters: For the 3.8 kit, the stock catalytic converter is removed and a replacement was optional (extra $$$). My best guess is that the 3.6 kit will be done in a similar way, in which case I would assume that the replacement converter is appropriately selected to work well with the system.

I'm not going to harass Prodigy about details right now that will answer themselves or become irrelevant soon when full details are released. I'm doing my best to exercise patience But as soon as details are released, I plan on making a phone call to get answers to remaining questions, then share the answers here for everyone that is curious.

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