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Old 09-06-2009, 09:14 PM   #1
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Project HHO Fuel Generator

I posted a reply in the "Great gas mileage" thread about this kit I planned to install into my JK. Well, finally got it installed today and now it's time to test if this thing really works.

What is it, you say? Basically it's a 2 part Hydrogen/oxygen gas generator that produces brown gas that is safely combustible in a gas/diesel engine, blending with gas which allows the following claimed benefits:

- low to 0 emissions
- 25-50% increase in fuel efficiency
- up to 10 additional HP
- better throttle response
- runs on distilled water and baking soda (basically free energy)

You can check it out here to learn more about it. Water to Gas - Brown's Gas & HHO Water Gas Technology | Improve Gas Mileage up to 50%!

It is mounted by a home-made bracket that attaches it to the front of the electric fan. This location was really the only option available space wise. It is powered off of my cig lighter fuse in the fuse box and grounded to the body. This way, when the ignition is off, the generator stops producing gas. The positive and negative charge from the battery electrolyzes the water/baking soda solution via stainless steel rods inside the first jar emitting brown gas. The gas is captured in the connected larger second jar called the "bubbler" and is sucked into the vacuum into the intake to be mixed with pump gas to create the above claimed benefits.

After a quick test drive I noticed better low gear acceleration, lower rpm operation, and going up a steep hill felt effortless.

The real test will be the mileage. I will be recording the mileage over the next few weeks and see what I get. Thanks for looking.

Some install pics:

Home-made bracket to mount in front of fan


Complete assembly


Hooking up all the connections (power & fuel line)


Generator in place


T-connecter fuel line to intake manifold vacuum tube


Engine bay view with installation complete

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Old 09-08-2009, 01:48 PM   #2
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This seems really cool if it works. I'm subscribed and look forward to the updates!

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Old 09-08-2009, 11:16 PM   #3
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I really hope this works. I'm still dialing in the setup and checking with the manufacturer to make sure I have the line installed in the right place, etc. Once I get it set up optimally, I will start taking real mpg readings over the next month or so.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:27 PM   #4
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Project HHO Fuel Generator

This is interesting. Sounds vaguely familiar to a water injection unit I had on a '70 model big block chevrolet years back. It was basically a water bottle similar to a wiper washer bottle that had some kind of motor/mister/sprayer that would activate when kicking in the 4 barrel. The tube was plugged into the top of the air cleaner lid pointing directly into the carbureator. Don't remember exactly how it worked; however, do remember that I could tell some difference. In the winter it would freeze, so ran alcohol in place of the distilled water - seemed to work even better. The alcohol was the racing fuel I used when racing go karts - wouldn't know how to find it now. Haven't thought about this in years - good luck with it, I look forward to hearing about the results.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:07 AM   #5
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curious on how this is going to turn out
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:14 AM   #6
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Congrats on voiding the hell out of your lifetime powertrain warranty

I've seen some people who get some result that's supposedly from that kit (more likely in their head, and a change in driving habits), and more that get nada.

As I say to all the folks who buy Tornados, fuel magnets, etc.- if a cheap and easy solution could net the gains claimed, why didn't the OEM put one in?

Been building race and hot street engines for years. While I haven't done too much work with brown gas, I have read more than a little bit about it. It all sounds well and good, but there are flaws in the idea.
One- the new gas increases emissions, usually NOx and carbon monoxide, and may well cause an inspection failure.
Two- as I said first up, bye bye lifetime warranty for ANY engine part.
Three- possibility of mixing wrong, hydrolocking- bye bye engine.
Four- you WILL eventually damage your sensors- oxygen (they REALLY don't like moisture, and yes, you will have moisture in the exhaust stream with these systems), MAF/MAP, IAT, etc.

I love on this kit's website that they say it's like a system from WWII fighter planes- that was water/methanol injection- big difference!
Water injection is a fine mist used in HIGH PERFORMANCE engines that see regular tear-downs. Adding methanol into the mix adds power. All of this WILL reduce reliability.

On the upside, you WILL have nice, clean pistons- the incombustible water vapor will steam clean the carbon off the tops of your pistons- that's where any power increase would come from.

Problem is, you'll also have increased wear on your crank, pistons, and rods from TRYING to compress that water vapor.

Basically, bad idea, once you think it all through.

Do what you like, but dude, if you want to keep your Jeep a while, take it off! If you want better MPG's, chip it (at least you can hide that when you take it in for warranty work!), and drive more smoothly- Mark W.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:48 AM   #7
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Where's the flux capacitor?
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:19 AM   #8
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"Free" energy always causes skepticism. The laws of physics are really tough to break.

While I don't believe this device will make any increase in efficiency, it does produce Hydrogen. So you're going to have pressure and possible explosions in those bottles. Keep an eye on them. Carry a fire extinguisher. (Remember back in junior high science when you separated hydrogen from water, and filled a balloon with it? It makes a -really- loud bang when it goes off).

Have fun!
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:50 PM   #9
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"Free" energy always causes skepticism. The laws of physics are really tough to break.

While I don't believe this device will make any increase in efficiency, it does produce Hydrogen. So you're going to have pressure and possible explosions in those bottles. Keep an eye on them. Carry a fire extinguisher. (Remember back in junior high science when you separated hydrogen from water, and filled a balloon with it? It makes a -really- loud bang when it goes off).

Have fun!
if you read their website it says their new kits have eliminated the "dangerous, high-pressure hydrogen tanks." also its not that hard to remove this kit for when you need warranty work too. (it also says that on their website). im not saying im an advocate of this system ive never heard of it before and dont know any one using one but that doesnt mean they dont work. just asking are you all saying that the people who bought this kit and reported an increase in mpg they are all lying? i just hate when people are afraid of new things so they dont even give it the time of day to learn what it is really about. when it was said that if this was so great why dont the oems use it well one they might not be able to because of patents, and also when have the oems always done what is best for the vehical/costumer. oem do what is best for the company. example, what one real jeep owner would have thought it would be a good idea for the wrangler to have a 3.8 v6 instead of the 4.0 I6 that has been so great for so many years? just my two cents
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:58 PM   #10
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Two of the biggest Federal mandates that automobile manufacturers are dealing with are improved MPG and lower emissions. If it were that easy, don't you think they'd be all over it?
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:02 PM   #11
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not unless they cant. if the company water to gas holds the patents on the HHO generator then the oems CANNOT use it unless they pay the high dollar amount that water to gas wants for the use of the system.
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:07 PM   #12
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Ok. First up, many people pay very little attention to their REAL fuel economy. If they pay noticably less for a tank of gas than their last, they assume they are getting better fuel economy, disregarding changing gas prices, changing driving cycles (less city, that trip to CT to visit grandma, etc.), changing driving habits, etc. VERY few actually take the time to calculate their long term fuel economy, record it in a logbook, and do proper scientific-esque testing. That's why I DISCOUNT 99% of what I hear. Also, most of what you read about these kits is on the manufacturer's website, so I FULLY discount any of that.

Also, I'm not afraid of new things. I plan to buy the new and different MT/R's with Kevlar, I've prototyped hundreds of performance parts in mine and customers' engines and vehicles. But miracle cures? No thanks. Let others explore it, and if it works, MAYBE try it if the science behind it makes sense. In this case, not so much...

Also, what's best for the customer AND the OEM's would be reduced emissions and higher MPG. If they added a doo-dad that added 25-50% fuel economy, reduced emissions, and only bumped my MSRP a few hundred bucks, I'd check the hell out of that box. But yeah, no such luck (although going 2-door vs. 4-door helps :-p)

As for removing it, 2 problems. 1- that's a pain in the ass to do anytime you bring the car in. 2- any mechanic worth a shit can look at a sensor, cylinder head, or piston and see if steam cleaning is going on. It's somewhat common when coolant leaks into a cylinder to see perfectly clean plugs, piston domes, or combustion chambers on one or more cylinders, while the others are normal, and carbon'ed up. If all of the cylinders are like that, warranty claim denied.

Also, the 4.0L was dropped due to the tooling being worn out, Daimler being cheap and evil (not wanting to replace it), and it would cost a whole lot more to rebuild it to meet ever-stricter emissions standards. The 3.8 is not a bad engine, but it did have the best Jeep engine ever to surpass, which it does not- Mark W.
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:11 PM   #13
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With regards to patent, I don't know the background, but assuming that due to the variety of different kit companies that make these, plus DIY kits available, it probably isn't patented. Also, if it is, if one OEM (say, Chrysler) bought the patent (IF it were worth buying), they could sell it to other OEM's, and make a BUTTLOAD for the rights to produce it. So that idea doesn't fly.
Badfish, you know this isn't personal. I just don't buy snake oil Mark W.
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:11 PM   #14
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not unless they cant. if the company water to gas holds the patents on the HHO generator then the oems CANNOT use it unless they pay the high dollar amount that water to gas wants for the use of the system.
Looks like a home made system to me. How much R&D do you think they are spending right now to meet the new guidelines?
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:33 PM   #15
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im not trying to make this personal at all i just dont like seeing new things get pushed by the wayside cause nobody wants to believe it. i dont believe this thing works just cause i read on their website it does. i still believe that Gulf Laboratories the company that owns water to gas has the patents on this and why would they sell it to a corporation for little money when they can package it and sell it themselves. if chrysler doesnt want to pay the god awful amount that Gulf Laboratories want for the patent cause they think they can make there own version of it why would they. i just dont see how everyone can right this off when it could be the next huge thing seen on all cars in the next few years. this is new and maby it is the wonder cure we are all looking for. you dont know i dont know nobody but the maker if this thing really knows but how can we all be so skeptical when we dont know?
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:44 PM   #16
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I may not KNOW, but I'm pretty darn sure. I've studied engines, and how they work, all of my adult life, and some before that. There is no way that long term this setup could possibly be good for the vehicle. There are far too many if's for me to trust it. It's highly unlikely an OEM would pick it up for the same reason- there are too many things that can go wrong.
Not to mention, as Geoff did, that hydrogen gas is extremely flammable/combustible, and when exposed to the extreme heat found under the hood of an ORV, I simply don't see any good things happening. Again, while I don't know, that's simply the problem- there are far too many variables for it to be trustworthy- Mark W.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:11 PM   #17
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only time will tell i geuss
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:17 PM   #18
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Time and a few runs on the dyno.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:41 PM   #19
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im not trying to make this personal at all i just dont like seeing new things get pushed by the wayside cause nobody wants to believe it. i dont believe this thing works just cause i read on their website it does. i still believe that Gulf Laboratories the company that owns water to gas has the patents on this and why would they sell it to a corporation for little money when they can package it and sell it themselves. if chrysler doesnt want to pay the god awful amount that Gulf Laboratories want for the patent cause they think they can make there own version of it why would they. i just dont see how everyone can right this off when it could be the next huge thing seen on all cars in the next few years. this is new and maby it is the wonder cure we are all looking for. you dont know i dont know nobody but the maker if this thing really knows but how can we all be so skeptical when we dont know?
It's not personal at all. If it was a worthwhile system the automakers would be all over it no matter what the cost. They would be falling over themselves to buy exclusive rights to it no matter how much it cost. The government would be forcing everyone to use it. If a simple DIY kit could get results it would be sold in every auto parts store. I don't see anything about Gulf Laboratories on that website other than some anecdotal statement from someone supposedly in Clearwater, Fl. Gulf Laboratories is in Qatar and there is nothing about it anywhere on there website. Smells like snake oil to me
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:10 PM   #20
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Not to mention, as Geoff did, that hydrogen gas is extremely flammable/combustible, and when exposed to the extreme heat found under the hood of an ORV, I simply don't see any good things happening.
I don't know anything about this particular kit, and if, as BadFish points out, they solved the issues of H under pressure, then kudos to them. After all, gasoline is extremely flammable and we run it through our engine bays.

I pointed it out because the kit looked homemade, and it seemed a relevant point.

BadFish: I have huge admiration for tinkerers, back-yard inventors, and makers of all kinds. People who build giant pumpkin-chucking cannons or things like that are my kind of heroes.

But I'm going to make another post on why I think this won't do much.
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:27 PM   #21
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What it is, and why it sounds so good:

Browns Gas is another name for oxyhydrogen. Discovered years ago by a Bulgarian chemist, it's an electrical process that allows water (two Hydrogen and one Oxygen molecule) to be split into a chain of H-H-O.

This is true, and was used all the time. It's used as a welding gas to this day. It used to be used as a fuel for lanterns. When I was a kid we had a miners helmet with a neat lantern on it that had a small container with lime, an electrode rod, and water. This could be used to create gas.

It's created by running electricity thru an anode and a cathode (some sort of metal, like magnesium) which "denegerates" the water into its parts: you get hydrogen bubbles from the cathode and oxygen bubbles from the anode (or the other way round, I can't remember).

This method of creating hydrogen is very common, and is how you do it in Junior high science classes.

The system RenPia is experimenting with collects those hydrogen and oxygen bubbles, and feeds them into the combustion chamber. It's Free Gas!

So far so good. Like all good things, it needs an element of truth to it.

But there's more to the story...
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:47 PM   #22
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The laws of thermodynamics. And why they totally suck.

You can't create energy. You can take something that contains energy, and use it in a different format (decayed dinosaurs or used french fry grease can be burned and will release -most- of their stored energy). But each time you do this, you lose some of your energy. To friction, to inefficiencies, etc. When you burn a gallon on gas, you do not get all of it's potential energy.

When you create hydrogen, it takes exactly the same amount of energy to pry those hydrogen and oxygen atoms apart as you get from burning them. As Popular Mechanics resident scientist says: "Subtract the losses to heat in the engine and alternator and electrolysis cell, and you’re losing energy, not gaining it—period."

Lots of the HHO proponents seem to suggest that their injections make the gas more efficient. This would only be true if the combustion of gas was inefficient. It's not. If your car is tuned up, you are already burning all the gas you pump thru it. Adding Hydrogen or Oxygen will not make it burn better.

If you want proof of this, find a single web site of someone who has tested these devices in controlled environments. There are a few, and they ALL report no gain in MPG.

And here's an interesting trick: read the ads and web sites carefully. In the U.S., you can sell anything you want. There are no rules for proving it works. BUT you can not advertise that product with false claims. These web sites are super careful not to make claims without using "weasel words" like 'might' or 'could'. They won't point to any studies. They'll never say "proven to..."

Here's a bunch of connected articles from Popular Mechanics:
HHO Fuel Myths - Water Car Gas Boosters Debunked - Popular Mechanics

Dateline's expose on this:
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:55 PM   #23
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Geoff, you just escalated to hero status in my book Not for putting more facts on the page, but for dropping science Respect- Mark W.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:18 PM   #24
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Hydrogen is actually much safer as a fuel than gasoline.
The process of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen has been around since the 1800's and the Germans experimented with it as a fuel during WWII, My friends and I used water vapor canisters on VW motors back in the 70's to try and boost compression it's definitely not new technology.
A few problems with this idea.
It takes more energy to produce than it delivers, you get a net loss in energy.
As has been mentioned, adding water to the engine will cause damage to the engine as well as the emissions system in the long run.
There's also the problem of hydrogen embrittlement, hydrogen is the smallest molecule known to man and can pass through many types of metal, this causes the metal to become weak, it's one of the main stumbling blocks of using pure hydrogen to run internal combustion engines.

It's very easy and fairly inexpensive to test an engine in a lab. they can determine exactly how much power an engine can make on any given fuel, and they can determine fuel efficiency. When you see these companies making claims of improved fuel economy and performance but fail to provide documentation from an independent lab it's generally a glaring warning beacon, at least to me.
Most of the claims seem to be based on seat of the pants accounts. As was discussed in another thread recently, seat of the pants experiences can be amazingly exaggerated without the person lying. They are wanting/expecting/hoping for good results and the mind provides it. I know, I've been guilty of it myself.
If you really want to know if this is a scam or not, find someone in your area with a dyno and have it tested.
I would love to be proven wrong, I've spent years looking into alternative fuels and ways to increase fuel economy.

Good luck.

ETA: damn I type slow.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:45 PM   #25
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i think some of you got me wrong. i was not advocating THIS system i know very little about the thing. i am simply saying that a new system made by some lab that no one has ever heard isnt always a bad one. that is usually the consensus i get form everyone. im always the advocate for the little guy and love to see them win. i geuss i come from a family of them so i can relate. i love all the conversation and im most interested to find out what RenPia thinks of it. and i know that doesnt mean its works and its the best thing in the world i just want to know more.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:25 PM   #26
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Wow, great dialogue guys. Like most I want to believe that there are ways to improve things especially something as desirable as better fuel mileage. That's what drives new thinking and making things better. I did not pay $3,000 dollars like in the expose. I paid $240. In my mind it seemed like a reasonable amount to test something to see if it works. Curiosity gets the best out of me most of the time. I asked the same thing of my self in regards to "seat of the pants" impression and I really WANT to believe in it. And maybe it's wishful thinking that makes me believe in it. If this type of fuel is bad for the engine for the long term, then I will take it off. But in the short term, I want to see if it works for myself. I posted this because if it works, you all will benefit from my experiment. If it doesn't you also benefit and can use this as a learning experience not to do this yourself.

Thanks for your responses. I'll post what I find.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:02 PM   #27
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BTW, this is the video that got me interested. This guy is not a seller, just a guy who wanted to get better mileage. http://www.howcast.com/videos/19830-How-To-Convert-a-Car-Engine-To-Burn-Water-As-Fuel-Plans
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:08 PM   #28
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:52 PM   #29
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Any increase in mileage I am about to buy one good idea or not?
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:04 PM   #30
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Great ghost of Lazarus!!!!

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