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Old 06-18-2013, 09:55 AM   #151
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" (f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. Tailgates, except on vehicles where the tailgate gives access to the passenger compartment, may be replaced with wood planking, nets or other material that will prevent loss of load. Tailgates may be removed when optional equipment, for example a truck camper, is added."


As much as I hate to state this, the interpretation seems pretty clear to me that doors must be on a vehicle if the vehicle is sold with the doors. The part about "...doors shall open and close securely" doesn't say you don't have to have doors if you don't have a roof, it says the doors must open and close unless you have no roof. My interpretation is if you have no roof, your doors do not have to open and close...but you still must have doors.

What that actually means in practice is absolutely nothing useful...you have to have doors, but if you have no roof they do not have to 1. open or 2. close. Pretty stupid that the law allows doors that do not "securely close" if you have no roof, but in effect that's what it states.

One thing is for sure, it definitely needs to be amended or rewritten, because it is completely nonsensical the way it is currently written.
This is to allow old school dune buggies without doors and old Model T hotrod/dragsters with welded doors to be legal. But I read it as saying that a topless vehicle does not need doors, period. As stated earlier, my opinion and yours will not count, unless we are sitting on the bench.

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Old 06-18-2013, 10:01 AM   #152
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This is to allow old school dune buggies without doors and old Model T hotrod/dragsters with welded doors to be legal. But I read it as saying that a topless vehicle does not need doors, period. As stated earlier, my opinion and yours will not count, unless we are sitting on the bench.
The first sentence says otherwise. It says a vehicle is required to have doors, period. The exception in the second sentence does not modify or apply to the first sentence, it only applies to the former statement in that second sentence.

In terms of the English language, it clearly states you are required to have doors. In practical terms, it may be a different matter.

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Old 06-18-2013, 11:57 AM   #153
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I'm SOOOOO glad to be back in my home state again. As long as I have my rearview mirror (which is turned upside down) I can take my doors off, not relocate my sideviews, drop the top, roll with fat tires, put my Gator tag on the front bumper, and enjoy being a Jeeper while the Prius driving Libtards are getting a $60 fine for driving slow in the left lane. Yep, starting 1 July, in the state of Florida, if you are in the left lane of a multilane roadway, you'll get fined for driving slow. Bad part is they have to be driving at least 10 mph below the posted speed limit, not the speed of every other car on the highway which is probably 10 mph OVER the posted speed limit.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:22 PM   #154
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I'm SOOOOO glad to be back in my home state again. As long as I have my rearview mirror (which is turned upside down) I can take my doors off, not relocate my sideviews, drop the top, roll with fat tires, put my Gator tag on the front bumper, and enjoy being a Jeeper while the Prius driving Libtards are getting a $60 fine for driving slow in the left lane. Yep, starting 1 July, in the state of Florida, if you are in the left lane of a multilane roadway, you'll get fined for driving slow. Bad part is they have to be driving at least 10 mph below the posted speed limit, not the speed of every other car on the highway which is probably 10 mph OVER the posted speed limit.
In Virginia one just has to not get out of the way of a driver signaling for you to move over to be stopped and fined.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:54 PM   #155
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The first sentence says otherwise. It says a vehicle is required to have doors, period. The exception in the second sentence does not modify or apply to the first sentence, it only applies to the former statement in that second sentence.

In terms of the English language, it clearly states you are required to have doors. In practical terms, it may be a different matter.
But we're talking about statutory construction, not the English language. What does "equipped" mean in this context? A JK has doors that are designed to be removed- maybe the absence of doors on a JK fulfills the requirement that the doors must be "of a type" prescribed by the original manufacturer. I agree that the second sentence is probably distinct from the first, but it also represents legislative intent to depart from a colloquial understanding of a door; if a door is welded shut, is it still a door?

Now, you have probably rolled your eyes at all of these arguments, but each of them would be an acceptable question to examine the legislative intent behind this vague and ambiguous statute. So as someone else just said, none of us are "correct" about what exactly the statute proscribes, unless we are PA judges in session.

Easiest way to comply with this statute: keep doors on.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:38 PM   #156
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§ 175.77. Body.


.....(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. ...

Doors are an option on all wranglers, they are not part of the original equipment of a wrangler. You have an option when you buy a jeep to have full metal doors or half doors. The doors of a wrangler are treated as extra items you get when you buy the jeep. Look at the paperwork when you buoght the jeep. Heck if you want you can buy both half doors and full doors when you buy a new jeep; so does that mean you have to have both sets of doors with you at all times.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:43 PM   #157
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§ 175.77. Body.


.....(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. ...

Doors are an option on all wranglers, they are not part of the original equipment of a wrangler. You have an option when you buy a jeep to have full metal doors or half doors. The doors of a wrangler are treated as extra items you get when you buy the jeep. Look at the paperwork when you buoght the jeep. Heck if you want you can buy both half doors and full doors when you buy a new jeep; so does that mean you have to have both sets of doors with you at all times.
Jeeps have no roof therefore it doesnt matter
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:50 PM   #158
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§ 175.77. Body.

.....(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. ...

Doors are an option on all wranglers, they are not part of the original equipment of a wrangler. You have an option when you buy a jeep to have full metal doors or half doors. The doors of a wrangler are treated as extra items you get when you buy the jeep. Look at the paperwork when you buoght the jeep. Heck if you want you can buy both half doors and full doors when you buy a new jeep; so does that mean you have to have both sets of doors with you at all times.
There you go- another possible argument. But again, when any one person reads a statute in a way that makes a lot of sense to him, that doesn't make it the law. The law is only what a court says it is. You could decide that this what the statute says and go drive around in PA doorless, but your opinion won't stop you from getting a citation. Would this argument hold water in court? Nobody can say for sure. Would it stop a cop from giving you a ticket? Almost certainly not. As I keep saying, everyone in this thread can keep on tossing in their $.02, but it will continue to add up to nothing until the issue comes to a valid and final judgment in a court of appropriate jurisdiction. Until then, unless you want to be the martyr who actually gets a ticket and challenges it, you're probably safest just keeping the doors on.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:54 PM   #159
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§ 175.77. Body.


.....(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. ...

Doors are an option on all wranglers, they are not part of the original equipment of a wrangler. You have an option when you buy a jeep to have full metal doors or half doors. The doors of a wrangler are treated as extra items you get when you buy the jeep. Look at the paperwork when you buoght the jeep. Heck if you want you can buy both half doors and full doors when you buy a new jeep; so does that mean you have to have both sets of doors with you at all times.
But can you buy a Jeep without doors? If doors were truly an option, you would be able to. And I'm not talking the dealer keeps the doors...I'm talking your Jeep ships from assembly with no doors.

If you cannot get a Jeep with no doors from the factory, your doors are not an option. Which doors are the option in that instance.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:00 PM   #160
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But can you buy a Jeep without doors? If doors were truly an option, you would be able to. And I'm not talking the dealer keeps the doors...I'm talking your Jeep ships from assembly with no doors.

If you cannot get a Jeep with no doors from the factory, your doors are not an option. Which doors are the option in that instance.
Hey, look! Another possible argument- this time one that would be brought by the State of PA. Result? Same as before.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:00 PM   #161
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But we're talking about statutory construction, not the English language. What does "equipped" mean in this context? A JK has doors that are designed to be removed- maybe the absence of doors on a JK fulfills the requirement that the doors must be "of a type" prescribed by the original manufacturer. I agree that the second sentence is probably distinct from the first, but it also represents legislative intent to depart from a colloquial understanding of a door; if a door is welded shut, is it still a door?

Now, you have probably rolled your eyes at all of these arguments, but each of them would be an acceptable question to examine the legislative intent behind this vague and ambiguous statute. So as someone else just said, none of us are "correct" about what exactly the statute proscribes, unless we are PA judges in session.

Easiest way to comply with this statute: keep doors on.
I think the intent is obvious - if your vehicle was delivered from the factory with doors, you are required to have doors. If the law was written to be vague at best, I don't think law enforcement would be as active about enforcing it as they are in PA (you might argue they are not active, but this is really the only individual thread with its own state about this issue so they are active relative to the rest of the country).

It seems to me that both in law and in practice, doors are required as a general rule of thumb. Until somebody infringing that law pushes their case to the supreme court, I doubt the issue will ever be fully clarified as it is written.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:16 PM   #162
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I think the intent is obvious - if your vehicle was delivered from the factory with doors, you are required to have doors. If the law was written to be vague at best, I don't think law enforcement would be as active about enforcing it as they are in PA (you might argue they are not active, but this is really the only individual thread with its own state about this issue so they are active relative to the rest of the country).

It seems to me that both in law and in practice, doors are required as a general rule of thumb. Until somebody infringing that law pushes their case to the supreme court, I doubt the issue will ever be fully clarified as it is written.
Ok, one more time: It's great that you have an opinion about how clear the law is. But when it comes to questions about what the law is, your opinion doesn't matter. Neither does mine, or that of the PA police. For that reason, the degree to which the police enforce this law is almost irrelevant with regard to its meaning as applied to Jeeps. Just because the police give you a ticket for something doesn't mean that what you did was actually illegal- if that were the case, we would have no need for a judicial system- the state executive branch (police) could just decide what the statutes say and we could just dispose of the judiciary. But that would violate the Pennsylvania Constitution, so that's probably not a great plan.

I say that the policing of the statute is almost irrelevant because although the activity of the police by itself is not relevant, I supposed that their continued policing activity could indicate that the judiciary has in fact found that this statute applies to JKs.

Lastly, someone challenging the law would not need to push their case to the supreme court. As soon as someone pleads not guilty and any court (including traffic court) finds that such person should not be held liable under the statute by reason of their Jeep being exempt, the statute would instantly be "clarified as written," for our purposes. I don't know where you got that idea about the Supreme Court, but it's not accurate.

Anyway, I'm going to stop blabbing on this thread now because I'm obviously not helping at all.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:21 PM   #163
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§ 175.77. Body.


.....(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. ...

Doors are an option on all wranglers, they are not part of the original equipment of a wrangler. You have an option when you buy a jeep to have full metal doors or half doors. The doors of a wrangler are treated as extra items you get when you buy the jeep. Look at the paperwork when you buoght the jeep. Heck if you want you can buy both half doors and full doors when you buy a new jeep; so does that mean you have to have both sets of doors with you at all times.
Roofless means doorless is OK, if the judge agrees.....
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:43 PM   #164
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So, if you live in PA... simply have the dealer remove the doors *before* you pick up the vehicle, take a pic in front of the dealership and drive off the lot... returning to pick up your doors aftermarketpurchase...

USPS, UPS and Fed/Up trucks run around all day with their doors open... what's the difference?
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:08 PM   #165
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So, if you live in PA... simply have the dealer remove the doors *before* you pick up the vehicle, take a pic in front of the dealership and drive off the lot... returning to pick up your doors aftermarketpurchase...

USPS, UPS and Fed/Up trucks run around all day with their doors open... what's the difference?
That last one is the argument i would use if i ever took it to a judge. hell i bought a two leader, no doors, cop was sitting in the middle of the street at a light at 3am, i went around the turn and pop flew out. I stopped and got it. No word from the cop.

Usually the cops just think im cool as hell.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:28 PM   #166
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If I were pulled over I'd go to the judge, bring in a whole host of Jeep advertisements showing the Jeep running without doors. Explain to the judge that the law is not very clear as your vehicle was designed, and in fact encouraged by the manufacturer to have the doors removed. Bring up the UPS driver, try to play to the judges sensibility. Remind him that Jeeps, have always run doorless.

In the mean time, call your State Rep and Senator and your local Jeep clubs and get something going to change the law.

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Old 06-18-2013, 06:40 PM   #167
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and i believe that was my case when i was pulled over... twice!!! by the same department. where are you from in PA?
Clinton County right in the middle of the state
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:47 PM   #168
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Who cares take em off and when they bitch...we'll deal with it! TO Many other things to argue about!
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:21 PM   #169
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^^ this!
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:49 PM   #170
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Clinton County right in the middle of the state
i'm in northumberland county
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:23 AM   #171
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I have a friend that is a police officer out by the Pgh International airport and he said he never heard of anyone ever pulling over a Jeep for not having its doors on. He stated that if you have mirrors and a seat belt on you should be good. Also I think this is just a quoted filler ordeal. And we have no helmet law in PA, so how the hell does it make sense if you have your doors off it would be illegal?
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:42 AM   #172
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Who cares take em off and when they bitch...we'll deal with it! TO Many other things to argue about!
thats why i dont have a 3rd brake light.
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:51 AM   #173
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In Maryland all you need is a combination of two rear view mirrors and you are fine with the doors off. I have been driving wranglers for 13 years and have NEVER been pulled over in any state from Maine to Florida which includes PA and WV. Interpretation is the key here!!
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:27 AM   #174
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What you all need is someone who's a lawyer with a license to practice in PA to get a ticket for this and then successfully argue his way out of the ticket in court. They you'll have precedent for all future tickets in this state to be dismissed
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:44 AM   #175
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Clinton County right in the middle of the state
northumberland county
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:36 PM   #176
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What you all need is someone who's a lawyer with a license to practice in PA to get a ticket for this and then successfully argue his way out of the ticket in court. They you'll have precedent for all future tickets in this state to be dismissed
Why would it need to be a lawyer? And for that matter, why would the lawyer need to be licensed in PA?
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:43 PM   #177
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Why would it need to be a lawyer? And for that matter, why would the lawyer need to be licensed in PA?
my guess would be because no one would hire a lawyer to fight the ticket (too expensive to be worth it), so if a lawyer gets pulled over then he can fight his own ticket pro bono, and to fight the ticket (or practice law at all) he'd need to be licensed in PA
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:49 PM   #178
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my guess would be because no one would hire a lawyer to fight the ticket (too expensive to be worth it), so if a lawyer gets pulled over then he can fight his own ticket pro bono, and to fight the ticket (or practice law at all) he'd need to be licensed in PA
Nope. Anyone can fight their own ticket pro se (without representation), including lawyers licensed in other states. So anybody (not just a lawyer) could fight a PA ticket and a resulting ruling would hold the exact precedent weight as if a lawyer were involved. That's why I wondered why it would have to be a PA lawyer.
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:51 PM   #179
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hmm...better understanding of PA law, then?
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:58 PM   #180
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I'd think that a person with a JD degree who's a member of the bar of PA might be more successful than plumber Joe at convincing a judge of the meaning of the statute. Sure anyone can fight a ticket, but it doesn't mean they'll do a good job or use the correct legal jargon in their argument before the bench. Maybe I'm wrong here. I'd wager there are more than a couple of lawyers who practice in Pennsylvania on this forum.

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