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Old 09-03-2012, 05:37 AM   #1
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Question Should i get a turbo or a supercharger?

Hi guys,

im thinking of getting a supercharger or turbo for my jeep!
I have a 2007 JK sahara
i have looked at STS and prodigy performance products, and arent really sure which would be better! Jeep JK Wrangler Turbo Performance looks pretty good
I am not a fan of the trademark supercharger whining noise which is why i want to opt for a turbo!
i know a turbo gives more power but may not be good for the hot temperatures you can get in dubai! I just want to get a bit more ooph when i press the loud pedal!
any thoughts?

Oli

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Old 09-03-2012, 07:11 AM   #2
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I used to have a vehicle with a turbo, they also whine.

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Old 09-03-2012, 07:18 AM   #3
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Check out this thread...deals w/the same topic: Turbo or Supercharger? 2012?
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:51 AM   #4
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I used to have a vehicle with a turbo, they also whine.
Fur true, but who doesn't like pretending they have a turbine under their hood? Heck the turbo whine is so cool, they even sell those little gizmos to fake it!
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:33 PM   #5
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IMO a supercharger is more practical for a Jeeps uses being wheeled. If you are crawling the turbo lag will not help much.

Ripp has been making JK superchargers for a long time now and are pretty much the standard but Magnuson has a SC coming out and Avenger has had one a while too.

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Old 09-03-2012, 08:38 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by bbtj View Post
I used to have a vehicle with a turbo, they also whine.
Ughhhh, what? If your turbo is whining, you have a blown or about to blow turbo. Turbos don't whine.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Daniel_M View Post
IMO a supercharger is more practical for a Jeeps uses being wheeled. If you are crawling the turbo lag will not help much.

Ripp has been making JK superchargers for a long time now and are pretty much the standard but Magnuson has a SC coming out and Avenger has had one a while too.

-Dan
Use a smaller turbo. It won't have monster top end power, but will have nearly full spool at a very low RPM. A 3.8 or a 3.6L v6 mated to a modern turbo like a GTX30 will result in full spool at 1200 or so RPM and will easily achieve 400 wheel horsepower. A supercharger is NEVER EVER better than a turbo...other than cost. Now, a turbo system takes a little more skill to make reliable, but if both are quality kits, the turbo will outperform the supercharger every time, in every category. A turbo will also increase your daily driving mpg by as much as 25%.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:49 PM   #8
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You can here the turbo in every one I have driven. The definetely spool up and most people refer to it as whine.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:49 PM   #9
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You can here the turbo in every one I have driven. The definetely spool up and most people refer to it as whine.
I would definitely not classify it as a whine, especially when compared to a roots type blower. Not even in the same league. I have a highly boosted s2000 built by me so I know a thing or two about forced induction. Sure you hear a "sucking" sound, but thats usually due to an open wastegate and blowoff valve. A supercharger whine is FAR louder than a turbo spooling.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:03 PM   #10
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Supercharger. It produces power from the moment the RPMs increase. A turbo runs best in a cool, damp climate because the air is denser.

I had a 1987 Buick Grand National turbo 3.8L V6 and it ran great in the winter and was an absolute dog in the Phoenix summers. Since Dubai's climate approximates a Phoenix summer, the supercharger is the way to go.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:15 PM   #11
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Supercharger. It produces power from the moment the RPMs increase. A turbo runs best in a cool, damp climate because the air is denser.

I had a 1987 Buick Grand National turbo 3.8L V6 and it ran great in the winter and was an absolute dog in the Phoenix summers. Since Dubai's climate approximates a Phoenix summer, the supercharger is the way to go.
You cant compare a turbo from 1980s to the turbos of today. Superchargers suffer from heat soak just as much. Turbos will make plenty of power any time. Sure, they are better in cooler weather, but so are naturally aspirated motors. Modern turbos can be watercooled as well as oil cooled, keeping them plenty cool. Jeeps are not taken to racetracks, where cooling may become an issue. I have driven the hell out of my s2000 in 90 degree heat and had no issues with cooling, and my turbo is only oil cooled. Hell, all the new BMWs are twin turbo cars, and have PLENTY of performance in any weather. The new M5 is just as fast in the summer. I agree, if I lived in Phoenix or Dubai, I would definitely upgrade my cooling system with a bigger radiator, lower temp thermostat, etc etc. Like I said above, besides the power, the torque, the fuel economy advantages of a turbo, the only benefit a supercharger has over a turbo is cost. It costs more money to have a proper, more efficient turbo setup.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:55 AM   #12
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U can get this kit in Dubai ,but costs a pretty penny(aed 29900)!, but looks like a qompete set with header/cooler for the heat

RIPP intercooled Supercharger STAGE III JK w/headers
Design features include of 6061 spun aluminum construction, with CNC design and fabrication, units are then hand assembled by our in house techs to insure quality control second to none. Our drive-shaft is mated to a custom configured mirror polished Vortech Engineering V3 Si-Trim Self Contained Supercharger with the Quiet option (VSQ), bringing boost in smoothly and safely and covered by a comprehensive 1 year limited warranty.

This kit also include:

- Intercooler

- Diablo Tuner

- Long Tube Headers

- Highflow CATS
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:20 PM   #13
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We decided against turbo due to the con's associated with them.
  • Alot of hot exhaust pipes routed around the engine compartment to meet up with the turbo.
  • Management of all the additional underhood heat.
  • The use of engine oil (cross contamination) to lubricate them and the high heat the oil would be subjected to as it passed through.
  • Ease of install and maintenance.
We have manufactures turbo systems for other vehicles. We just didn't feel it to be the best thing when it comes to Jeeps and the environment in which they are used.







Questions welcome.

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Old 09-04-2012, 12:41 PM   #14
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I'm a noob on induction issues, but don't turbos end up with lots of hot pipes underneath the vehicle? And while that's fine on a street car, isn't that a potential issue when you may be submerging the bottom of the vehicle in water and mud? And regardless of heat, doesn't that create issues of skid plating that you might want to undertake given that you may be traversing rocky/stump filled areas?

If you can get 80% of the benefits of a turbo for less cost and greater reliability in a trail setting, I think that would better fit the model of what jeeps are "supposed to be."

For example, one of my favorite features of the Ripp kit (as I understand it) is the ability to completely uninstall it with simple hand tools on the trail. So if it malfunctions in some way, you can still go back to your ordinary 3.8 presuming the malfunction didn't actually damage the engine. Can you do that with a turbo?
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH
I'm a noob on induction issues, but don't turbos end up with lots of hot pipes underneath the vehicle? And while that's fine on a street car, isn't that a potential issue when you may be submerging the bottom of the vehicle in water and mud? And regardless of heat, doesn't that create issues of skid plating that you might want to undertake given that you may be traversing rocky/stump filled areas?

If you can get 80% of the benefits of a turbo for less cost and greater reliability in a trail setting, I think that would better fit the model of what jeeps are "supposed to be."

For example, one of my favorite features of the Ripp kit (as I understand it) is the ability to completely uninstall it with simple hand tools on the trail. So if it malfunctions in some way, you can still go back to your ordinary 3.8 presuming the malfunction didn't actually damage the engine. Can you do that with a turbo?
CRD jeeps do just fine with turbos. Turbos simply cost more to properly setup and engineer. The end result would be a kit that is 2x the price of a supercharger kit. A supercharger doesn't need to be uninstalled on the trail and that's not how manufacturers intend for you to limp home. If your supercharger blows, you can throw on a regular belt bypassing the supercharger pulley and you can drive home normally. Turbos are more tricky. You can indeed limp home but not like a supercharged. Bottom line it's a cost thing. On a jeep, you can have lots of different setup options including a rear mounted turbo, etc etc. I could design a bulletproof kit for the jk but it would cost $15,000. This is why companies like Ripp don't make these kits, no one would buy them. If turbos can survive on a track, they can survive on a trail.

There is nothing wrong with superchargers. They are awesome. My comments were aimed at the original post on turbo vs supercharger. There is a great chance I may supercharge my JKU down the road if no one comes out with what I deem a solid turbo kit, but if someone does, I'll be all over that!
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH
I'm a noob on induction issues, but don't turbos end up with lots of hot pipes underneath the vehicle? And while that's fine on a street car, isn't that a potential issue when you may be submerging the bottom of the vehicle in water and mud? And regardless of heat, doesn't that create issues of skid plating that you might want to undertake given that you may be traversing rocky/stump filled areas?

If you can get 80% of the benefits of a turbo for less cost and greater reliability in a trail setting, I think that would better fit the model of what jeeps are "supposed to be."

For example, one of my favorite features of the Ripp kit (as I understand it) is the ability to completely uninstall it with simple hand tools on the trail. So if it malfunctions in some way, you can still go back to your ordinary 3.8 presuming the malfunction didn't actually damage the engine. Can you do that with a turbo?
Oh and one more thing...turbo setups have the same number of hot pipes....the manifolds and the exhaust. On turbo vehicles they just get hotter that's all.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:28 PM   #17
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Oh and one more thing...turbo setups have the same number of hot pipes....the manifolds and the exhaust. On turbo vehicles they just get hotter that's all.
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
CRD jeeps do just fine with turbos. Turbos simply cost more to properly setup and engineer. The end result would be a kit that is 2x the price of a supercharger kit. A supercharger doesn't need to be uninstalled on the trail and that's not how manufacturers intend for you to limp home. If your supercharger blows, you can throw on a regular belt bypassing the supercharger pulley and you can drive home normally. Turbos are more tricky. You can indeed limp home but not like a supercharged. Bottom line it's a cost thing. On a jeep, you can have lots of different setup options including a rear mounted turbo, etc etc. I could design a bulletproof kit for the jk but it would cost $15,000. This is why companies like Ripp don't make these kits, no one would buy them. If turbos can survive on a track, they can survive on a trail.

There is nothing wrong with superchargers. They are awesome. My comments were aimed at the original post on turbo vs supercharger. There is a great chance I may supercharge my JKU down the road if no one comes out with what I deem a solid turbo kit, but if someone does, I'll be all over that!
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:54 PM   #18
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I've had experience with forced air induction (both stock and aftermarket).

Turbo's do have some lag, but they do not rob power from the engine. Superchargers take power from the engine to create more power. In my experience, you will get a noticeable increase in HP with as little as 6 - 8 PSI, but it may not translate into noticeable torque gains in the RPM range that you need it.

Looking at dyno sheets from the Pentastar engine show a very flat torque curve that comes in at a relatively low RPM and stays there for nearly the full RPM range. For serious off road capability you want your torque available down in the low RPM range. HP isn't as important. I would have to see dyno sheets to be able to compare stock readings vs Supercharger vs turbo.

As far as being able to pull the supercharger off with normal hand tools, you can do that with nearly every supercharger I'm familiar with. The only issue you will run into is reprogramming the fuel tables. If you are running forced induction, you need more fuel to prevent detonation due to the higher compression. Most forced induction tunes are very rich. The tunes that I've had in the past, would probably cause the plugs to foul, and cause the engine to stop running (no serious damage, just not able to get a hot enough spark).

Temperature is a drawback that both turbos and superchargers exhibit. When air is compressed, it heats up. It doesn't matter if it is "preheated" as recirculated exhaust (Turbo), or pushed through a supercharger (with intercoolers, CAI, etc.). It get's hot quickly when you tap into the power. I've had my EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) rise 500+ degrees in a matter of seconds when I would get the supercharger fully producing power. Superchargers and turbos don't continuously produce their max power. The amount of forced air produced is directly related to the amount of vacuum in the system. During regular driving you aren't pushing the gas pedal to the floor (creating max vacuum in the engine), so the actual power produced by the turbo/supercharger is minimal to non-existent. If you've got your foot buried in the floor pan, you should have a very high vacuum, and the additional power from the turbo/supercharger will be applied.

A lot of compression with not enough fuel = very expensive engine damage. You would also want to consider changing out internal engine components (i.e. pistons, rods, etc.), to prevent the possibility of failure. Blowing a hole in a piston, bending/throwing a rod are common causes of failure in forced induction engines.

There is no such thing as cheap bolt-on power. If you really want to play with the big boys, you need to be willing to drop some coin into the project.

The decision of turbo over supercharger will depending on what your goal is, and how much you are willing to spend. The heat issue is actually going to be about the same regardless of your choice. Cold Air Induction (CAI), intercoolers, etc., will all help keep temps down, but it all depends on how you use it.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:40 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by GiantSchnauzer View Post
U can get this kit in Dubai ,but costs a pretty penny(aed 29900)!, but looks like a qompete set with header/cooler for the heat

RIPP intercooled Supercharger STAGE III JK w/headers
Design features include of 6061 spun aluminum construction, with CNC design and fabrication, units are then hand assembled by our in house techs to insure quality control second to none. Our drive-shaft is mated to a custom configured mirror polished Vortech Engineering V3 Si-Trim Self Contained Supercharger with the Quiet option (VSQ), bringing boost in smoothly and safely and covered by a comprehensive 1 year limited warranty.

This kit also include:

- Intercooler

- Diablo Tuner

- Long Tube Headers

- Highflow CATS
Thanks giant! i did actually look at this particular kit as it seems its the only one that they sell in the AEV or offroadzone shops!
It looks pretty good and rippmods seem pretty quality!
its just i was wondering if there were any alternatives, i know its petty but that supercharger noise i could imagine would get annoying haha, or maybe i would get used to it
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by RIPPMODS View Post
We decided against turbo due to the con's associated with them.
  • Alot of hot exhaust pipes routed around the engine compartment to meet up with the turbo.
  • Management of all the additional underhood heat.
  • The use of engine oil (cross contamination) to lubricate them and the high heat the oil would be subjected to as it passed through.
  • Ease of install and maintenance.
We have manufactures turbo systems for other vehicles. We just didn't feel it to be the best thing when it comes to Jeeps and the environment in which they are used.







Questions welcome.

RIPP
thanks rippmods!
i have been looking at your supercharger as the alternative to a turbo and i guess i see your reasoning! its just that whine thats it haha, seems petty i know!
I guess i could get used to that though, it does seem like a pretty good system and they stock it in the dubai shops which is useful!
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:51 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BakedInMN View Post
I've had experience with forced air induction (both stock and aftermarket).

Turbo's do have some lag, but they do not rob power from the engine. Superchargers take power from the engine to create more power. In my experience, you will get a noticeable increase in HP with as little as 6 - 8 PSI, but it may not translate into noticeable torque gains in the RPM range that you need it.

Looking at dyno sheets from the Pentastar engine show a very flat torque curve that comes in at a relatively low RPM and stays there for nearly the full RPM range. For serious off road capability you want your torque available down in the low RPM range. HP isn't as important. I would have to see dyno sheets to be able to compare stock readings vs Supercharger vs turbo.

As far as being able to pull the supercharger off with normal hand tools, you can do that with nearly every supercharger I'm familiar with. The only issue you will run into is reprogramming the fuel tables. If you are running forced induction, you need more fuel to prevent detonation due to the higher compression. Most forced induction tunes are very rich. The tunes that I've had in the past, would probably cause the plugs to foul, and cause the engine to stop running (no serious damage, just not able to get a hot enough spark).

Temperature is a drawback that both turbos and superchargers exhibit. When air is compressed, it heats up. It doesn't matter if it is "preheated" as recirculated exhaust (Turbo), or pushed through a supercharger (with intercoolers, CAI, etc.). It get's hot quickly when you tap into the power. I've had my EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) rise 500+ degrees in a matter of seconds when I would get the supercharger fully producing power. Superchargers and turbos don't continuously produce their max power. The amount of forced air produced is directly related to the amount of vacuum in the system. During regular driving you aren't pushing the gas pedal to the floor (creating max vacuum in the engine), so the actual power produced by the turbo/supercharger is minimal to non-existent. If you've got your foot buried in the floor pan, you should have a very high vacuum, and the additional power from the turbo/supercharger will be applied.

A lot of compression with not enough fuel = very expensive engine damage. You would also want to consider changing out internal engine components (i.e. pistons, rods, etc.), to prevent the possibility of failure. Blowing a hole in a piston, bending/throwing a rod are common causes of failure in forced induction engines.

There is no such thing as cheap bolt-on power. If you really want to play with the big boys, you need to be willing to drop some coin into the project.

The decision of turbo over supercharger will depending on what your goal is, and how much you are willing to spend. The heat issue is actually going to be about the same regardless of your choice. Cold Air Induction (CAI), intercoolers, etc., will all help keep temps down, but it all depends on how you use it.
I guess id rather have the most value for money in terms of hp gain, reliability, and i guess suitability!

The car isnt taken off road in the hotter months in dubai (for obvious reasons) so i guess its more 'normal country' temperatures to deal with!

are you saying that a large enough intercooler would sort the problem with either system?
personally i think i prefer the idea of a turbo but im open for suggestions!
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:08 PM   #22
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I like both turbo's and superchargers, for different reasons of course.

With that said, I personally would choose a supercharger over a turbo as turbo's are generally more finicky to tune for everyday driving while superchargers are quite a bit easier to deal with and generally provide largely consistent results.

It is true, turbo's do not have an inherent parasitic drain which makes higher hp possible on the same psi, you're not building a 1200 hp dragster either. A 80 or 100 hp boost (along with the almighty torque) should be more than sufficient for your needs. If not, be prepared to build the motor with forged components.

Additionally, you can install a supercharger and never touch any component of the exhaust. Most turbo's require a new manifold(s) or some creative 35 ft. of tubing to get installed and effective.

To clarify, you would want an air to air intercooler, but this will not bring down your underhood temps. This will only cool the charged air in an effort to make it a bit more dense and therefore provide a bit more fuel to the fire so to speak.

Lastly, if you don't like the whine of a supercharger you need to get yourself checked out because that is one sexy ass sound that gets my heart pumping every time!
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:38 PM   #23
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Supercharger. It produces power from the moment the RPMs increase. A turbo runs best in a cool, damp climate because the air is denser.

I had a 1987 Buick Grand National turbo 3.8L V6 and it ran great in the winter and was an absolute dog in the Phoenix summers. Since Dubai's climate approximates a Phoenix summer, the supercharger is the way to go.
Your grand national should never have been a dog. Those cars ate all in the day.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:10 PM   #24
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<snip>The amount of forced air produced is directly related to the amount of vacuum in the system. During regular driving you aren't pushing the gas pedal to the floor (creating max vacuum in the engine), so the actual power produced by the turbo/supercharger is minimal to non-existent. If you've got your foot buried in the floor pan, you should have a very high vacuum, and the additional power from the turbo/supercharger will be applied.</snip>
WOT you should ideally see 0 vacuum. Vacuum at that point would show a restriction. Carb days you didn't want anything over 1.5" Hg or it was an indicator it was time for a bigger carb.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:03 PM   #25
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I ran 13 PSI on a 99 Cobra, in Phoenix, during the summer with 120+ degree days, with little issue.

Anything that dissipates the heat is a good idea. An intercooler will help, but as I stated earlier when you are tapping into that extra boost, EGT can rise very quickly, with or without an intercooler. Peak (Max) HP levels should only be hit transiently, during normal application. Heat and lean fuel conditions are the biggest areas of concern with a forced induction setup.

MotorCity, As far as the vacuum is concerned, you are correct with a reading of zero. I should have stated at WOT to be more clear on what I was saying. Mea Culpa.

Bottom line is, be careful when playing with forced induction. To get the most reliable service out of any setup, you need to decide what your goal is. I.e. Why do you want more power? No matter which setup you decide on, gauges for; fuel, air, EGT and boost, are highly recommended. Depending on how much boost (PSI) you plan on shoving into the engine, you may want to consider beefing up the internals (rods, pistons, etc.). I've seen many a rod come through the side of the block of a boosted engine.

With all that said, I was very happy with my boost experiences, and on the right vehicle would do it again. I just can't justify the expense vs gain on my Jeep.

If you are seriously thinking about going with forced air, troll some of the high performance vehicle sites (Corvettes, Mustangs, Camaros, etc) or "Tuner" sites for more tips, info on what to expect. You should be able to find all the horror stories and successes on both Turbo's and SuperChargers out there. For the most part, the info available doesn't need to be application specific (for a Jeep), to get an idea of what to expect.
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by oliroolz View Post
thanks rippmods!
i have been looking at your supercharger as the alternative to a turbo and i guess i see your reasoning! its just that whine thats it haha, seems petty i know!
I guess i could get used to that though, it does seem like a pretty good system and they stock it in the dubai shops which is useful!
See if you can get a ride in one of the shop's vehicles.
On the road while driving around, we find the "whine" barely audible over the tire noise on a JK. We specifically order our standard V-3 Vortech superchargers in SI-Q trim, Q denoting a quieter qear drive design.

RIPP
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:01 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

You cant compare a turbo from 1980s to the turbos of today. Superchargers suffer from heat soak just as much. Turbos will make plenty of power any time. Sure, they are better in cooler weather, but so are naturally aspirated motors. Modern turbos can be watercooled as well as oil cooled, keeping them plenty cool. Jeeps are not taken to racetracks, where cooling may become an issue. I have driven the hell out of my s2000 in 90 degree heat and had no issues with cooling, and my turbo is only oil cooled. Hell, all the new BMWs are twin turbo cars, and have PLENTY of performance in any weather. The new M5 is just as fast in the summer. I agree, if I lived in Phoenix or Dubai, I would definitely upgrade my cooling system with a bigger radiator, lower temp thermostat, etc etc. Like I said above, besides the power, the torque, the fuel economy advantages of a turbo, the only benefit a supercharger has over a turbo is cost. It costs more money to have a proper, more efficient turbo setup.
Agreed. I researched this years back when lookig for power plant options for a CJ project. The turbo of today is NOT the turbo of years gone by. I recall that the supercharged were great where low end was wanted and always seems to be the "American way". However, turbo tech has stepped it up. And if I can get max spool and a serious increase at 1200 rpm, I'd be all over it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

I would definitely not classify it as a whine, especially when compared to a roots type blower. Not even in the same league. I have a highly boosted s2000 built by me so I know a thing or two about forced induction. Sure you hear a "sucking" sound, but thats usually due to an open wastegate and blowoff valve. A supercharger whine is FAR louder than a turbo spooling.
Ew s2000 why would you do that to yourself
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by RIPPMODS View Post
See if you can get a ride in one of the shop's vehicles.
On the road while driving around, we find the "whine" barely audible over the tire noise on a JK. We specifically order our standard V-3 Vortech superchargers in SI-Q trim, Q denoting a quieter qear drive design.

RIPP
RIPP, what's the longevity on a supercharger? Any negative aspects to internal engine parts over time?
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:58 PM   #30
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I have always wanted an on/off supercharger ala the roadwarrior! What was up with that? Has there ever been such a thing as a switch controlled supercharger and why?

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