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Old 10-10-2011, 06:56 AM   #1
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spark knock?

about a month ago i noticed a knock/rattle noise when in 6th gear and around/under 2200 RPMS. if i downshift to 5th, it seems to go away. same thing happens in lower gears with low RPMs.

Yes, i am kind of a slow driver and i don't really get on it, so i usually don't get over 3200 RPMs much at all.

From reading previous posts, i see that it could be carbon build up, but i am also wondering if it could be my new tires, which were installed around the same time i noticed the knock.

i went from 255/70/R18 - (nexen SUV tires) to 305/70 Hankook DynaPros and to a 16" wheel. (from an 18" wheel)

rear axle is geared 4.10

my MPG has gone downhill, ( i figured this would happen because of the tire change) which is not too big a deal for me because i do not have a commute, but now i am wondering if it is all connected.

this is where it gets foggy for me. i read something about the engine and computer should automatically adjust the timing? maybe that's not happening?

should i try getting on the RPMs more to see if that will clean out any carbon build up? ( i hear that could work but would take some time )

i'm driving a 2007 JKU/sahara. about 53,000 miles. i am the second owner.

any help appreciated.

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Old 10-10-2011, 06:59 AM   #2
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in case it matters, i also lifted the jeep. about 2.5" when i got the new tires/wheels.

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Old 10-10-2011, 07:04 AM   #3
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It very well could be a ping. Mine does it on 87 and 89 octane under a moderate to heavy load, like pulling up and incline at slow engine speeds. Sounds like you're in the same boat. You put more load on the engine at low rpm with the bigger tires. I solved it by just running 93 octane. This is much easier than trying to have the dealer diagnose and fix the "issue" in my eyes. The $2 more I spend per tank isn't missed. Plus, gas stations around here never run out of 93.
Does it knock as long as you have your foot in it? Mine will for a few seconds, then the computer makes the adjustment and it goes away.
You could try running some Seafoam through the fuel system and vacuum lines. I've used it with good success in the past. It will break up a lot of the built up junk in there.
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:25 AM   #4
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Are you sure it's not the engine "lugging"

With stock 32's and 4.10's 2000-2200 is a bit low, seams to wake up after that.

Bigger tires would be worse
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:30 AM   #5
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Lugging would be the cause of the ping.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sinister View Post
It very well could be a ping. Mine does it on 87 and 89 octane under a moderate to heavy load, like pulling up and incline at slow engine speeds. Sounds like you're in the same boat. You put more load on the engine at low rpm with the bigger tires. I solved it by just running 93 octane. This is much easier than trying to have the dealer diagnose and fix the "issue" in my eyes. The $2 more I spend per tank isn't missed. Plus, gas stations around here never run out of 93.
Does it knock as long as you have your foot in it? Mine will for a few seconds, then the computer makes the adjustment and it goes away.
You could try running some Seafoam through the fuel system and vacuum lines. I've used it with good success in the past. It will break up a lot of the built up junk in there.
i'm going to try the higher octane gas but everything i have read says the JKs are built to run on 87. but i guess they mean stock.

unless i down shift or get the RPMs up, it knocks/rattles.

have also read about using seafoam as well.

i guess the best place to start is the higher octane gas and see what that does. thanks!
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:08 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
Are you sure it's not the engine "lugging"

With stock 32's and 4.10's 2000-2200 is a bit low, seams to wake up after that.

Bigger tires would be worse
don't think so. my husband has listened to it several times now and he said it sounds like spark knock.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracie View Post
i'm going to try the higher octane gas but everything i have read says the JKs are built to run on 87. but i guess they mean stock.

unless i down shift or get the RPMs up, it knocks/rattles.

have also read about using seafoam as well.

i guess the best place to start is the higher octane gas and see what that does. thanks!
They are supposed to run on 87, and the amount of ping may be within what Chrysler deems acceptable. I don't deem it acceptable, so I run 93. Most engines have some ping, even if you can't hear it. This level is not harmful, but when I can make it ping on command, it's a problem. I may get around to having it looked at, but apart from the ping on lower octane, my Jeep runs beautifully. I get better than average gas mileage (18 city, 24-25 highway), and I don't have all these lack of power issues others complain about, AND I have an automatic. I wouldn't want a reflash or something like that to eliminate the low octane ping, and also ruin my fuel economy, if you know what I mean. I also noticed my ping with just 6000 miles on the clock, FWIW. I'm not worried about it. I do my own maintenance and keep detailed records, so if something does happen, Jeep will know it's not from abuse.

When there's a ping, going to a higher octane is always the place to start, so if you do decide to let the dealer look at it, you can tell them what happened when you stepped up the octane.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:07 AM   #9
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I don't understand what's going on here

The op mentions low rpm "ping" or it rattles and Sin is saying it's normal and he has it also, correct?

Mine will rattle if I'm at around 2000, this engine hates lower rpms. 2300 and up seem fine.

Are you saying it's not supposed to do that? I would love to drive around at 1800 rpms but I burn more gas lugging the engine and it pings/rattles--whatever.

Just help me understand.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #10
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just wanted to add a bit of clarification here. just went for my daily jeep ride got out on the interstate and got it into 6th gear. when i give it gas, the knocking/rattling starts. when i back off the gas, the knocking/rattling slowly goes away. step on the gas, it comes back. this is at and around 2000-2500RPMs. i didn't try higher than 3000 or lower than 2000.

and, i didn't really hear much in the lower gears when i did the same thing. originally, i thought i did. but what i'm hearing in 6th as described above is a very obvious knock/rattling.

i also filled up with 89 octane while out.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracie
just wanted to add a bit of clarification here. just went for my daily jeep ride got out on the interstate and got it into 6th gear. when i give it gas, the knocking/rattling starts. when i back off the gas, the knocking/rattling slowly goes away. step on the gas, it comes back. this is at and around 2000-2500RPMs. i didn't try higher than 3000 or lower than 2000.

and, i didn't really hear much in the lower gears when i did the same thing. originally, i thought i did. but what i'm hearing in 6th as described above is a very obvious knock/rattling.

i also filled up with 89 octane while out.
So only In 6th gear?

I do believe your still lugging having bigger tires.

Added:

Coming from a Tj I had to get out of the habit of driving lower in the rpm range. Even with the stock 32's. 2200 is the minimum. I try to shift upwards of 3000 and and keep the rpms up over 2000, if it gets below it sputters and/or lugs like your
describing.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:07 PM   #12
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So only In 6th gear?
yes, that's what it did today. i thought i had heard it in the lower gears but i guess i was hearing something else.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:11 PM   #13
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as for the lugging; if i start in 2nd gear, i hear a rattle. is that what you mean?

this is a different sound than what i hear when in 6th gear.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracie
as for the lugging; if i start in 2nd gear, i hear a rattle. is that what you mean?

this is a different sound than what i hear when in 6th gear.
Little more pronounced starting in 2nd for sure.

This is why regearing is important when going with bigger tires. 33's are not monsters but they will hurt performance and MPG's.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:29 PM   #15
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Little more pronounced starting in 2nd for sure.

This is why regearing is important when going with bigger tires. 33's are not monsters but they will hurt performance and MPG's.

i though 4.10 gearing was okay for 33s...? i knew they would hurt my MPGs though.

so you're thinking then, that it DOES have a lot to do with my tires? meaning, i need to wait a little longer before shifting to 6th now.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracie

i though 4.10 gearing was okay for 33s...? i knew they would hurt my MPGs though.

so you're thinking then, that it DOES have a lot to do with my tires? meaning, i need to wait a little longer before shifting to 6th now.
4.10's are ok with the 6 speed because the driver is able to control the rpms to shift at. You are driving at the same rpm range I do in 6th. Don't be afraid to get the rpms up higher, lugging the engine will actually hurt MPG's .

The weight of the tire will effect performance as well. Some members have gone up to a 33" tire/wheel combo but kept the weight less then stock. I believe that helps with the loss of performance.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:52 PM   #17
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Just my opinion based off what I read so far.

When your going a bit to slow for the gear you are in it will do what they are calling lugging. That causes the spark knock because your slowing down the progression of the engine RPMs by dragging it down with vehicle weight. Its like holding down a cat that is trying to run away from you. Just let it go and it stops acting all jittery!

This tension build up and release is caused by springs in the clutch plates. They can shutter to help prevent the engine from stalling out and it causes the excess drag on the engine as a "jolt jolt jolt" each time those springs are trying to compinsate for the drivetrain moving slower than the engine is geared for at the time.

Personally, I would try to get the RPMs up a bit higher before shifting. Or, you'll need to regear. Take my word please, that shuttering from being in to high of a gear is not good for your engine. You will cause more money in damage to your clutch, pistons, piston rods and crankshaft then you will save on gas by shifting to soon.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenservices
Just my opinion based off what I read so far.

When your going a bit to slow for the gear you are in it will do what they are calling lugging. That causes the spark knock because your slowing down the progression of the engine RPMs by dragging it down with vehicle weight. Its like holding down a cat that is trying to run away from you. Just let it go and it stops acting all jittery!

This tension build up and release is caused by springs in the clutch plates. They can shutter to help prevent the engine from stalling out and it causes the excess drag on the engine as a "jolt jolt jolt" each time those springs are trying to compinsate for the drivetrain moving slower than the engine is geared for at the time.

Personally, I would try to get the RPMs up a bit higher before shifting. Or, you'll need to regear. Take my word please, that shuttering from being in to high of a gear is not good for your engine. You will cause more money in damage to your clutch, pistons, piston rods and crankshaft then you will save on gas by shifting to soon.
Well there you have it
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:15 PM   #19
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Just my opinion based off what I read so far.

When your going a bit to slow for the gear you are in it will do what they are calling lugging. That causes the spark knock because your slowing down the progression of the engine RPMs by dragging it down with vehicle weight. Its like holding down a cat that is trying to run away from you. Just let it go and it stops acting all jittery!

This tension build up and release is caused by springs in the clutch plates. They can shutter to help prevent the engine from stalling out and it causes the excess drag on the engine as a "jolt jolt jolt" each time those springs are trying to compinsate for the drivetrain moving slower than the engine is geared for at the time.

Personally, I would try to get the RPMs up a bit higher before shifting. Or, you'll need to regear. Take my word please, that shuttering from being in to high of a gear is not good for your engine. You will cause more money in damage to your clutch, pistons, piston rods and crankshaft then you will save on gas by shifting to soon.
okie-dokie! sounds good to me. thanks to all of you for the help. i'll post back if anything new develops.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:45 PM   #20
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Good luck
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:46 PM   #21
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Well I'm having this same spark knock issue in my 2011 JKU Rubicon, but I have an automatc. I seem to notice it 2000 rpm to about 3000 rpm. Since I can't control shift points in an auto, wat can I do?

I've tried 89 octane instead of 87 but still have the knock. I only have 5000 miles total but this sound is pretty sick to hear on a 38K rig...sounds like an out of tune engine. I did bring it to dealer 2 weeks ago to get checked but they said everything is normal..ugg. I've done 3 oil changes of mobil 1 synth 5-20, new air filter, and even though the knocking is there, the perfrmance of the engine seems good. I will try 93 octane but frankly if it calls for 87 octane, I don't feel I should have to spend the extra cash to keep my new engine from sounding like an old out of tune engine...help?
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 10to10
Well I'm having this same spark knock issue in my 2011 JKU Rubicon, but I have an automatc. I seem to notice it 2000 rpm to about 3000 rpm. Since I can't control shift points in an auto, wat can I do?

I've tried 89 octane instead of 87 but still have the knock. I only have 5000 miles total but this sound is pretty sick to hear on a 38K rig...sounds like an out of tune engine. I did bring it to dealer 2 weeks ago to get checked but they said everything is normal..ugg. I've done 3 oil changes of mobil 1 synth 5-20, new air filter, and even though the knocking is there, the perfrmance of the engine seems good. I will try 93 octane but frankly if it calls for 87 octane, I don't feel I should have to spend the extra cash to keep my new engine from sounding like an old out of tune engine...help?
Regearing is the only thing that will help the 4 speed automatic tranny In the pre 12.
You try shutting the OD Off?

Actually, have you considered a tuner to adjust your shift points?
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:11 PM   #23
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Well I've been waiting for a few companies to sort out the tuner for the 2011 so as of now..no tuner. Yah, I drive with OD off around town, but I still get the knock sound unless driving on the Hwy with OD off..bringing my rpms above that knock range.
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:23 PM   #24
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Well I've been waiting for a few companies to sort out the tuner for the 2011 so as of now..no tuner. Yah, I drive with OD off around town, but I still get the knock sound unless driving on the Hwy with OD off..bringing my rpms above that knock range.
That's right, no 11 yet. What's wrong with them?

If I had an auto I would def consider regearing. That transmission is under geared even with rubicon 4.10's

Look at this gear chart. With the factory 32's--4.88's even 5.13's will put you in the same range as the 6 speed. I think the charts at 70 mph (not sure)
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:20 PM   #25
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sevenservices may just have it in this case. I never thought it could be clutch chatter.

In my case, it's a ping, no doubt. It tends to happen when pulling up a hill at low speed. For instance, there is a gas station at the bottom of a hill right by me. When I pull out of the station and start to accelerate up the hill, it will ping on 87 and 89, but not on 93. It's a situational thing, and doesn't happen all the time. This is the only vehicle I've owned that pings in this scenario. If I filled it with 87 and took it to the dealer, I can pretty much guess their answer: "We couldn't repeat the problem." or "The small amount of ping is normal, try using higher octane." Like I said, it runs like a champ, other than the pin on the lower octanes. I'm ok with the extra $2 per tank to not have the headaches of trying to chase this problem down and having my Jeep in the shop for who know how long, or to have a reflash ruin my excellent mileage.
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:58 PM   #26
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I started hearing engine ping shortly after I got my jeep brand new in march 2010.

When I went to the dealer for an oil change I mentioned it.
They said everything was normal and engine ping is common in these engines.
I didnt want to believe that but sure enough....even the jeep manual says that engine ping/rattle can occur but it's not a problem.
I don't remember what page/section it was in and I'm not home or near my jeep at the moment.

It still happens to me from time to time....
I don't like hearing it but as long as the jeep runs fine, I won't worry!!
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:08 PM   #27
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Chrysler also says using a quart of oil every 1000 miles is "normal"......

Either way, I don't really care about the ping, and would never have mentioned it outside of this topic.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:22 PM   #28
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I don't get this whole "pinging" talk

Is that different then a "lug" or clutch chatter for that matter?

No secret that the 3.8 is worthless under 2000 rpms. Unless your accelerating hard in low gears.
Cruising about-- as soon as it dips below 2000-- the fun begins. I have no idea how the auto treats you guys but with the 6 speed, it's fun playing keep the rpms up past 2000.
Took a while to learn how to drive it coming from a Tj.
TheSprintBooster helps a ton. This manual/3.8 is way different then any other vehicle I drove but..

Are we even talking about the same thing? Lol
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:44 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
Regearing is the only thing that will help the 4 speed automatic tranny In the pre 12.
You try shutting the OD Off?

Actually, have you considered a tuner to adjust your shift points?
i meant to ask about tuners/performance chips/optimaizers yesterday. wondering if it would help in my case. i do need to recalibrate my speedometer too. i see that some models to this.
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Old 10-11-2011, 07:13 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
I don't get this whole "pinging" talk

Is that different then a "lug" or clutch chatter for that matter?

No secret that the 3.8 is worthless under 2000 rpms. Unless your accelerating hard in low gears.
Cruising about-- as soon as it dips below 2000-- the fun begins. I have no idea how the auto treats you guys but with the 6 speed, it's fun playing keep the rpms up past 2000.
Took a while to learn how to drive it coming from a Tj.
TheSprintBooster helps a ton. This manual/3.8 is way different then any other vehicle I drove but..

Are we even talking about the same thing? Lol

Ping is the air/fuel mixture igniting in the cylinder when/where it's not supposed to.
Clutch chatter is typically the clutch disc overheating or being dirty, and not holding against the flywheel properly.

tracie: I recommend you perform a test. Go find a hill in your area that you can accelerate up in 4th gear. Drive up it, increasing the throttle sharply a few times. If your engine rpm increases but you feel no change in momentum, your clutch is slipping and needs to be replaced. It sounds like you have some clutch chatter and some pinging.

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