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Old 05-19-2013, 05:19 PM   #31
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This was an organized stunt at an organized event. I think it was common sense for the girl to assume she was safe. If this was taking place in someone's driveway then I would agree with the lack of common sense on the victims part. Common sense from the organizers and drivers was clearly lacking, no way was this a freak accident!
That's one of the most misguided things I've read - and, sadly, I understand it's a commonly held belief. No one, absolutely no one, is more responsible for your safety than you are. Lack of situational awareness and poor assumptions may help your piece of mind but, and this is tragically obvious, they will not keep you safe. If assuming away risk were sensible, this woman would still be alive.

This event, as reported, shows poor decision making on the part of so many different people that it's more than just an accident - it's negligence. While I will argue strenuously for personal responsibility, I must agree that the event organizers and the driver clearly share a degree of culpability in this woman's death - because it was their responsibility to execute their task safely and they failed egregiously. While the woman was foolish, it was not ultimately her responsibility to operate either Jeep safely or to set the conditions for the stunt.

I don't believe in banning these sorts of things because someone screwed up - I believe in punishing the people that screwed up.

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Old 05-19-2013, 07:25 PM   #32
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I am still scratching my head trying to figure how the heck this happened.

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Old 05-19-2013, 09:10 PM   #33
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Hopefully, this video will be a vivid reminder to some, not to perform silly 4x4 stunts, anywhere, with people in close proximity. Prayers for her family.
Hopefully, the investigation finds there was a mechanical issue that caused the undesired movement of the Jeep after the tire crawling.

From the news reports, the silver Jeep sure didn't appear to be in harms way of a vehicle which should have been capable of moving about 2 mph (half the speed of a brisk walk) at the time of the incident.

Aside from the intrinsic risk of sheet metal or flare damage from a misplaced tire, I would not consider crawling tires even remotely dangerous. It is a low speed maneuver, completed with the same care of moving a fragile chess piece. Obviously, you would not want to stand directly next to either vehicles.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:13 PM   #34
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You mean like the dude was doing in the video when it climbed up the tire?
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:25 PM   #35
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You mean like the dude was doing in the video when it climbed up the tire?
What do you mean?
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:30 PM   #36
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Double post.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:40 PM   #37
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That's one of the most misguided things I've read - and, sadly, I understand it's a commonly held belief. No one, absolutely no one, is more responsible for your safety than you are. Lack of situational awareness and poor assumptions may help your piece of mind but, and this is tragically obvious, they will not keep you safe. If assuming away risk were sensible, this woman would still be alive.

This event, as reported, shows poor decision making on the part of so many different people that it's more than just an accident - it's negligence. While I will argue strenuously for personal responsibility, I must agree that the event organizers and the driver clearly share a degree of culpability in this woman's death - because it was their responsibility to execute their task safely and they failed egregiously. While the woman was foolish, it was not ultimately her responsibility to operate either Jeep safely or to set the conditions for the stunt.

I don't believe in banning these sorts of things because someone screwed up - I believe in punishing the people that screwed up.
I don't want to ban anything, I hope you don't think that's what I meant.

I agree that we are ultimately responsible for our own safety. However, at a promoted, organized event, I believe we should be able to presume that safety precautions have been taken. For example, roller coasters are inherently dangerous. I assume a percentage of risk when I ride one, but I assume that risk believing that the operator has performed all needed maintenance, tests, etc and the ride is reasonably safe.

This is a moot point I am trying to make since the silver jeep in the posted video appears to be quite a distance away from the action.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:43 PM   #38
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That's one of the most misguided things I've read - and, sadly, I understand it's a commonly held belief. No one, absolutely no one, is more responsible for your safety than you are. Lack of situational awareness and poor assumptions may help your piece of mind but, and this is tragically obvious, they will not keep you safe. If assuming away risk were sensible, this woman would still be alive.

This event, as reported, shows poor decision making on the part of so many different people that it's more than just an accident - it's negligence. While I will argue strenuously for personal responsibility, I must agree that the event organizers and the driver clearly share a degree of culpability in this woman's death - because it was their responsibility to execute their task safely and they failed egregiously. While the woman was foolish, it was not ultimately her responsibility to operate either Jeep safely or to set the conditions for the stunt.

I don't believe in banning these sorts of things because someone screwed up - I believe in punishing the people that screwed up.
Please clarify the bold statement. Are you saying because she didn't stand between the parked vehicles across the lot from the demonstration vehicles instead of "in front" or "on the hood or roof" that she is foolish?

If I'm sitting on my hood, or leaning against my vehicle, I have a reasonable expectation to not get run over and I would not consider it a foolish expectation. I can somewhat understand if there was a mechanical issue. I have a hard time understanding driver error on something that should have been moving so slowly.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:55 PM   #39
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Flexing is so embarrassing and pointless... now that it killed someone it should be forbidden completely.
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This...
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x2
Wow, could you get any more "liberal"? Hopefully you guys aren't being serious.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:56 PM   #40
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That's one of the most misguided things I've read - and, sadly, I understand it's a commonly held belief. No one, absolutely no one, is more responsible for your safety than you are. Lack of situational awareness and poor assumptions may help your piece of mind but, and this is tragically obvious, they will not keep you safe. If assuming away risk were sensible, this woman would still be alive.
That might be your belief, but the law is on the side of the victim here. A person is responsible for mitigating risks they are aware of. You can't say that a person located a distance from a stunt, sitting on the top of a Jeep, is somehow to know that a stunt is going to go bad, a Jeep is going to rocket towards her and crush her.

That's like saying if you get run over in a crosswalk it is your fault, because you ought to know that some people don't stop for crosswalks.

While the exact 'fault' of the accident needs to be investigated, you can't be telling me you think the girl is in anyway at fault for not being able to jump out of the way of a rampaging Jeep.

What needs to be taken away from this is simple - it is risk management 101:

- what are the possible outcomes if what I am doing FAILS?
- what are the chances of each of those outcomes?
- what steps can be taken to reduce the impact of failure?

Look at a typical NASCAR track for the evolution of how they manage risk... and they STILL have not eliminated it.

I can't believe you would blame this dead girl for 'lacking situational awareness'. It was a top-down Jeep rally. You would expect people to be ready to spring away from any running motor vehicle just in case it goes rocketing off?

This is a good time to think about the risks you assume as an owner of a modified vehicle. This rig will be getting a complete mechanical inspection, and if the owner's mods contributed to the failure, you better believe he will be liable.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:56 PM   #41
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Sorry.

"Obviously, you would not want to stand directly next to either vehicles."

Guy was standing in front of orange Jeep climbing up the tire. Then moves when he realizes if the Jeep goes all the way over, he gets hit, so he moves.

Most people lack foresight.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:01 PM   #42
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There are legal standards (negligence being one of them) for determining fault and a court system in place to levy remedies and punishments. This is a tragedy that should not be trivialized by those seeking to make it a political platform or chime in on how they feel about stacking.
A life was lost and others inexorably changed. We should all take what lessons we can from it, convey our condolences, and jeep with care in memory of the poor souls involved.

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Old 05-19-2013, 10:13 PM   #43
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We should probably stop speculating and wait for hard facts before passing judgement. Personally the woman is not at fault. Whether the driver is, is unknown. I believe the event coordinators created a reasonably safe atmosphere for the stunt.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:18 PM   #44
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Wow, could you get any more "liberal"? Hopefully you guys aren't being serious.
You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:21 PM   #45
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That's one of the most misguided things I've read - and, sadly, I understand it's a commonly held belief. No one, absolutely no one, is more responsible for your safety than you are. Lack of situational awareness and poor assumptions may help your piece of mind but, and this is tragically obvious, they will not keep you safe. If assuming away risk were sensible, this woman would still be alive.

This event, as reported, shows poor decision making on the part of so many different people that it's more than just an accident - it's negligence. While I will argue strenuously for personal responsibility, I must agree that the event organizers and the driver clearly share a degree of culpability in this woman's death - because it was their responsibility to execute their task safely and they failed egregiously. While the woman was foolish, it was not ultimately her responsibility to operate either Jeep safely or to set the conditions for the stunt.

I don't believe in banning these sorts of things because someone screwed up - I believe in punishing the people that screwed up.
I actually do agree with most of this post, some of it more than others. The only part I don't agree with at all is "While the woman was foolish".
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:23 PM   #46
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I love how everyone keeps saying the word stunt and act like it was two jeeps jumping over school buses or something.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:30 PM   #47
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What needs to be taken away from this is simple - it is risk management 101:

- what are the possible outcomes if what I am doing FAILS?
- what are the chances of each of those outcomes?
- what steps can be taken to reduce the impact of failure?
Risk management 101 is the resposibility of everyone at all times.

In this particular case, the organizers, the participants in the stunt and the woman each had their own unique parts to play in the tragedy that unfolded and therefore had their own unique aspects of risk management to perform.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:30 PM   #48
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I love how everyone keeps saying the word stunt and act like it was two jeeps jumping over school buses or something.
Exactly. Did Dianne Feinstein write this? Are these assault Jeeps that don't belong on our streets? What it is, is a tragic accident. Until the full report is done and released, there is no need to finger point or paint blame.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:32 PM   #49
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We should probably stop speculating and wait for hard facts before passing judgement. Personally the woman is not at fault. Whether the driver is, is unknown. I believe the event coordinators created a reasonably safe atmosphere for the stunt.
This will never work.

Forums are consistantly built around 99% speculation and 1% fact.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:37 PM   #50
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I love how everyone keeps saying the word stunt and act like it was two jeeps jumping over school buses or something.
That's what I'm saying.

For a capable offroader, it offers all the excitement of navigating a curb. The only reason to do it is for the bystanders; to us it is ho-hum. The primary purpose is to give those unfamiliar with the capability of the vehicles a glimpse of what they can do.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:43 PM   #51
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This will never work.

Forums are consistantly built around 99% speculation and 1% fact.
x2

But that happens when you try to make sense of that which makes no sense.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:45 PM   #52
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This will never work.

Forums are consistantly built around 99% speculation and 1% fact.
Maybe that's the way you do it, but not me.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:12 PM   #53
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There are legal standards (negligence being one of them) for determining fault and a court system in place to levy remedies and punishments. This is a tragedy that should not be trivialized by those seeking to make it a political platform or chime in on how they feel about stacking.
A life was lost and others inexorably changed. We should all take what lessons we can from it, convey our condolences, and jeep with care in memory of the poor souls involved.

my .02
X2

We could speculate until the cows come home and that will not change any facts. Most likely the courts will end up sorting this out. That is how these things are usually settled. In order to stage most public events, the responsible party(s) have to get insurance. One day long from now, it will most likely be the insurance company who will demand to see how safety will be handled and it will determine whether or not an event will be insured. This will in turn determine if the event can occur. Have you ever tried to rent a public space? They will want to see the renting organizations insurance certificate. Then there are the public officials who, based on the history of such events will want some to see some kind of safety plan. No doubt there will be some kind of hold harmless statement signed. All of this will be no help to the poor person who lost their life in this accident though. Just a terrible tragedy. My thoughts and prayers are with her loved ones.

Regarding flexing and or stunts of any type with automobiles of all shapes and sizes, demonstrations of such are just not something I would want to go and see. But just because I see no point in it doesn't mean that someone else may want to see this. Just think about all of the monster truck shows that are put on by various groups and companies throughout the United States. It seems there will always be a demand for this and always seems to be someone willing to put a show like this together. It is the nature of business. It is also the nature of business that safety must be considered and proper insurance obtained. Eventually, even if there are no laws made putting regulations on such an event, accidents like these have a way of adjusting what is allowed in future events such as this one.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:28 PM   #54
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Did anyone else see this comment?

In the comments here: Jeep driver apologizes after stunt kills Edmonton woman - British Columbia - CBC News

IrishCanadian32
"...The second, and more importantly, is the driver himself. After he mounted the 2nd jeep as part of the stunt, he did as he said with the brakes and clutch, then turned off the vehicle, got out of the vehicle to pose of photos, and that's when something caused the vehicle to move out of control and do what it did that cause the fatality. The driver abandoned the vehicle to showboat for the fans taking pictures and was not in control of a vehicle that was left mounted in a hazardous position. It should have been safely dismounted before he got out of the vehicle to showboat for the crowd."
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:39 PM   #55
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so the Boston marathon promoters where negligant for not using common sense and protecting everyone that was there when clearly there might have been some kind of threat sorry to say sh__t happens they are called accidents. Take it from me my two year son died in my arms and last thing i was thinking about was a lawsuit. Dont get me wrong i feel and pray for this lady and her family but lawyers and suing everyone for anything is just stupid
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:42 PM   #56
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Wow, could you get any more "liberal"? Hopefully you guys aren't being serious.
Putting your tire on a stump/rock/pile of dirt, on a trail in the woods without a crowd is one thing. You're free to do it, its your truck, your life, your safety at risk.

Putting your tire on top of another vehicle, at a crowded spectator show is completely another. You're not only putting your vehicle, your life, and your safety at risk... you're putting everyone else's as well, without their permission.

And don't play the "well they don't have to watch or stand close by" card either. That doesn't work for rubbernecking on the highway's either.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:43 PM   #57
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Did anyone else see this comment?

In the comments here: Jeep driver apologizes after stunt kills Edmonton woman - British Columbia - CBC News

IrishCanadian32
"...The second, and more importantly, is the driver himself. After he mounted the 2nd jeep as part of the stunt, he did as he said with the brakes and clutch, then turned off the vehicle, got out of the vehicle to pose of photos, and that's when something caused the vehicle to move out of control and do what it did that cause the fatality. The driver abandoned the vehicle to showboat for the fans taking pictures and was not in control of a vehicle that was left mounted in a hazardous position. It should have been safely dismounted before he got out of the vehicle to showboat for the crowd."
How did it "move out of control" when it was turned off? The most it could have done with the ignition off is gently roll off the other Jeep's tire if it was in neutral, no way it managed to generate enough power to flip onto its side if the engine wasn't running and it was on flat ground.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:44 PM   #58
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Dont get me wrong i feel and pray for this lady and her family but lawyers and suing everyone for anything is just stupid
I agree. I hate to think that we will soon live in a country controlled by lawyers and those same lawyers will take turns pillaging our government, etc.

My Mom passed away from what could have been attributed to malpractice (very likely). The bottom line is, a law suit was not going to bring her back.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:48 PM   #59
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How did it "move out of control" when it was turned off? The most it could have done with the ignition off is gently roll off the other Jeep's tire if it was in neutral, no way it managed to generate enough power to flip onto its side if the engine wasn't running and it was on flat ground.
That would require speculating...there are a whole lot of "what ifs" that could stack up badly if he did exit the vehicle.

I know I would not go near a "stacked" vehicle if no one was behind the wheel with a foot planted firmly on the brakes.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:49 PM   #60
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Putting your tire on a stump/rock/pile of dirt, on a trail in the woods without a crowd is one thing. You're free to do it, its your truck, your life, your safety at risk.

Putting your tire on top of another vehicle, at a crowded spectator show is completely another. You're not only putting your vehicle, your life, and your safety at risk... you're putting everyone else's as well, without their permission.

And don't play the "well they don't have to watch or stand close by" card either. That doesn't work for rubbernecking on the highway's either.
Best explanation yet.

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