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Old 05-19-2013, 11:58 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by PhotoWrangler View Post
Putting your tire on a stump/rock/pile of dirt, on a trail in the woods without a crowd is one thing. You're free to do it, its your truck, your life, your safety at risk.

Putting your tire on top of another vehicle, at a crowded spectator show is completely another. You're not only putting your vehicle, your life, and your safety at risk... you're putting everyone else's as well, without their permission.

And don't play the "well they don't have to watch or stand close by" card either. That doesn't work for rubbernecking on the highway's either.
There is no card playing here. This was an organized event, not a couple of guys messing around in a parking lot. Your beef should be with the potential safety practices overlooked (pending investigation) not the move itself. Seeing something bad happen and calling for it to be banned is a typical and popular liberal move. A move I don't agree with.



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You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I'm not responsible for the meaning that word has in this country. They've labeled themselves and who am I to argue? You can think it means whatever you'd like. You can use another word if you'd like too. The ideals remain the same. A rose by any other name....

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Old 05-19-2013, 11:58 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by PhotoWrangler View Post
Putting your tire on top of another vehicle, at a crowded spectator show is completely another. You're not only putting your vehicle, your life, and your safety at risk... you're putting everyone else's as well, without their permission.
I would disagree. You are at no more risk watching some tire crawling than walking through parking lot traffic at a grocery store. The climbing vehicle is in low range, low gear capable of 2 mph.

This was an unfortunate accident.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:01 AM   #63
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Your beef should be with the potential safety practices overlooked (pending investigation) not the move itself. Seeing something bad happen and calling for it to be banned is a typical and popular liberal move. A move I don't agree with...

I'm not responsible for the meaning that word has in this country. They've labeled themselves and who am I to argue? You can think it means whatever you'd like. You can use another word if you'd like too. The ideals remain the same. A rose by any other name....
x2
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:04 AM   #64
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How did it "move out of control" when it was turned off? The most it could have done with the ignition off is gently roll off the other Jeep's tire if it was in neutral, no way it managed to generate enough power to flip onto its side if the engine wasn't running and it was on flat ground.
IF this was what happened.... the only thing I can think of is MAYBE he killed it then turned the key back on to turn on some tunes to reinforce just how cool he was. If the key was turned back on all the way AND the jeep was a 6speed and AND it sliped off of the other jeep forwards or backwards it MIGHT have started its self and took off. By no means am I saying this is what happened, but it is the only thing I can think of IF he was lut of the jeep...... well that and a remote start hooked up with no neutral safety switch.

We will not know till the investigation is finished and reported on.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:12 AM   #65
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I would disagree. You are at no more risk watching some tire crawling than walking through parking lot traffic at a grocery store. The climbing vehicle is in low range, low gear capable of 2 mph.

This was an unfortunate accident.

Walking through a parking-lot, has the same inherent safety risks as walking through this organized event.

Creating this stunt raised the risk involved, unfortunately. It doesn't matter whether he was climbing in 2nd gear, or 6th, high range, or low range... the fact of the matter is that the stunt increased the safety risk of all persons in the immediate area for no valid reason... and the outcome was, exactly what it was.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:22 AM   #66
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Walking through a parking-lot, has the same inherent safety risks as walking through this organized event.

Creating this stunt raised the risk involved, unfortunately. It doesn't matter whether he was climbing in 2nd gear, or 6th, high range, or low range... the fact of the matter is that the stunt increased the safety risk of all persons in the immediate area for no valid reason... and the outcome was, exactly what it was.
Do you understand the concept of freak accident or don't you?
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:23 AM   #67
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Walking through a parking-lot, has the same inherent safety risks as walking through this organized event.

Creating this stunt raised the risk involved, unfortunately. It doesn't matter whether he was climbing in 2nd gear, or 6th, high range, or low range... the fact of the matter is that the stunt increased the safety risk of all persons in the immediate area for no valid reason... and the outcome was, exactly what it was.
Assuming, the driver stayed in the vehicle with his foot on the brake pedal, how did it increase the safety risk?
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:23 AM   #68
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Do you understand the concept of freak accident or don't you?

I do.

But this wasn't a freak accident. It was created a risk with an unpredictable result.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:27 AM   #69
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I believe whoever investigates this accident should be required to drive a modified vehicle (locked, regeared, lifted with larger tires) onto another vehicle's tire. It is the only way they will fully understand the factors involved in the whole process. Of course, make it a manual transmission.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:38 AM   #70
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In one of the links he said: "... the clutch was at the floor", which only happens if you are sitting in the drivers seat. He stopped short of the top of the other tire (shown in one of the other videos), so the Jeep would naturally want to roll backwards when he re-started it. How does hill start assist work - especially after you just turned the Jeep back on? Was he expecting the Jeep to roll backwards?
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:48 AM   #71
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I do.

But this wasn't a freak accident.
You were there? Tell us how you know this. All the info in the story points to freak accident. What information do you have that tells you otherwise? And are you sticking by your previous call to ban this move or re-canting it?
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:58 AM   #72
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This is an unfortunate accident and that's exactly what it is.. an accident.

I feel bad for the young women that died and her loved ones that will have to bury her way before her time.. I can't imagine the grief her parents must feel.

A couple years ago eight spectators lost their lives alongside an offroad race event in SoCal - a lot of people wanted to blame others for the accident... even the BLM.

I can't imagine how the drivers of these trucks, Jeeps, or whatever type of offroad race car lives with the thought that someone lost their life after losing control of their vehicle. They engage in these motorsports events and exhibitions because it's their passion.

The words "Only IF" comes to mind.

Only IF I hadn't jumped and landed on that ten year old kid during a motocross race practice lap at Indian Dunes 38 years ago. Only IF I had anticipated that we were sharing the same line as I launched off a jump in 4th or 5th gear. I felt bad for that little guy as they took him away in an ambulance.

You simply can't anticipate all the scenarios and malfunctions that can cause an accident, but we all know that accidents happen. I watched a man fall to his death after a skydive went wrong at a NHRA event. It was a freak accident. The veteran skydiver did everything in his power to prevent spectators from being hurt - he died doing what he loved.

May peace be with the family of this young girl during this difficult time. I'm sure she will be remembered for the love she had for Jeeps and other things in life.

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Old 05-20-2013, 01:02 AM   #73
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Couldn't have said it better m998.
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Old 05-20-2013, 06:47 AM   #74
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Total freak accident IMHO .. If you watch the News clip you can clearly see the silver Jeep safely (one would think) across the way with the young lady sitting on the roof.
This orange jeep would have to have been under power to roll across the walkway, walk up the front of the other Jeep and roll over.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:26 AM   #75
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@ BeyondYourFrontDoor,

I'd say you missed the point I was trying to make - in fact, it looks a lot like you didn't even read the second paragraph. That said, consider it another way:

Picture yourself in the middle of an intensely painful accident, feeling very alone and afraid, knowing you are about to die - now, hold that frame of mind, and ask your soon to be deceased self if you really care whose fault it is.

If you're anything like me, you can see dozens of ways to die just going through your day. I know I care most about what I can do to prevent it, not who my wife can blame if it happens.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:52 AM   #76
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Here's my post from yesterday, one more time, for those that missed the news video.

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Sadly, although I'm not 100% positive, I believe the ill-fated girl can be seen in this video moments before the tragedy. She's possibly sitting on top of the silver JK in the background, at the 0:36 second mark. Hopefully, this video will be a vivid reminder to some, not to perform silly 4x4 stunts, anywhere, with people in close proximity. Prayers for her family.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:52 AM   #77
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Accidents are caused by acts of nature. If there was not a mechanical failure outside the ability of the driver to control, then the driver, who has actual physical control of the vehicle, is at fault.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:39 AM   #78
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Here's a video that I just found involving the orange JK in question. Like I said before, some people never grow up and learn, not to have bystanders in close proximity when displaying irresponsible behavior with silly 4x4 stunts. They were lucky in this video, but my point is that eventually,....complacency breeds failure!


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Old 05-20-2013, 11:07 AM   #79
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Some of you make me sick, not just with your sheer ignorance, but your complete lack of logic, and the resulting garbage you are spewing out as your opinion. You can play the blame game all you want, but some of the things being said in this thread are just plain stupid. We are surrounded by "risk" at all times. Every moment of our lives. If something is not done with intention, it is an accident.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:26 AM   #80
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Intent has nothing to do with "crashes". I'm sure nobody intended for that young girl to die. Again, if there was not a mechanical failure, then the driver is at fault.

A lack of intent does diminish responsibility.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:30 AM   #81
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Some of you make me sick, not just with your sheer ignorance, but your complete lack of logic, and the resulting garbage you are spewing out as your opinion. You can play the blame game all you want, but some of the things being said in this thread are just plain stupid. We are surrounded by "risk" at all times. Every moment of our lives. If something is not done with intention, it is an accident.
Sometimes you have to call it like it is. Which is exactly what youve done...

But if you notice, i never said that he should be criminally liable either. And his civil liabilities should be covered by insurance.

Shit happens and i somewhat agree with you. Thats life. Honestly the deceased should have been more aware of their surroundings and not been standing there. Everyone involved is at fault if you ask me, not just the driver.

But none of that will bring a life back. It is sad that this happened and im glad it wasnt me.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:32 AM   #82
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Intent has nothing to do with "crashes". I'm sure nobody intended for that young girl to die. Again, if there was not a mechanical failure, then the driver is at fault.

A lack of intent does diminish responsibility.

I never said anything along those lines. People keep saying this wasn't an accident. It most definitely was an accident. Blaming everyone and everything thinkable for something that no one could ever foresee happening is ridiculous. The people making these speculations are obviously grossly uneducated and inexperienced in these types of situations.


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Sometimes you have to call it like it is. Which is exactly what youve done...

But if you notice, i never said that he should be criminally liable either. And his civil liabilities should be covered by insurance.

Shit happens and i somewhat agree with you. Thats life. Honestly the deceased should have been more aware of their surroundings and not been standing there. Everyone involved is at fault if you ask me, not just the driver.

But none of that will bring a life back. It is sad that this happened and im glad it wasnt me.
I wasn't targeting you. at all. I agree with what you just said. If the vehicle malfunctioned the driver shouldn't be responsible at all. No one should be. From what I have gathered this event was as safe as was practically possible. I have done this many times. I can't see how the vehicle could have hit the girl and ended up on it's side by simply slipping off the other tire, even if it were in gear and running! Either the driver made a grave mistake, or there was a major mechanical failure. I'm not trying to defend anyone, but I don't believe in trying to shift blame where it doesn't belong. It also disgusts me how people are so much more passionate about blaming someone and punishing them, then mourning the loss of a young life... What's really more important? It's not as if this act was committed in cold blood.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:45 AM   #83
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I never said anything along those lines. People keep saying this wasn't an accident. It most definitely was an accident. Blaming everyone and everything thinkable for something that no one could ever foresee happening is ridiculous. The people making these speculations are obviously grossly uneducated and inexperienced in these types of situations.
I have observed in my life experiences that some people with lots of formal education tend to pick things apart and feel the need to place the blame on someone. Even if they don't fully understand the situation.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:55 AM   #84
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I have observed in my life experiences that some people with lots of formal education tend to pick things apart and feel the need to place the blame on someone. Even if they don't fully understand the situation.
I agree. I think people like that can't have any closure unless they blame someone, and are incapable of just accepting a situation.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:28 PM   #85
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I never said anything along those lines. People keep saying this wasn't an accident. It most definitely was an accident. Blaming everyone and everything thinkable for something that no one could ever foresee happening is ridiculous. The people making these speculations are obviously grossly uneducated and inexperienced in these types of situations.
We have different meanings for the same words. An accident to me is something caused by something other than man. A crash is caused by man. In this case, if there was no mechanical failure, the driver is completely at fault. Some call it "blame", I call it "cause".

This being Canada, I'm not sure how they do things. But I'm sure they are going to do a Traffic Homicide Investigation. Again, unless it was a mechanical failure, the driver will be found "at fault".

Intent has nothing to do with motor vehicle crashes. If the driver intended to hit and kill her, then it would not be a crash. It would be an aggravated battery, manslaughter, murder, etc. In other words, it would be a crime, not a crash. There would no crash report. There would be a criminal investigation.

Everyone keeps throwing around the word "intent". It doesn't matter what his intent was. In the ensuing civil trial, the driver's attorney is not going to use the defense of "freak accident".

And what's my experience to draw such a speculation?

13 years of law enforcement.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:30 PM   #86
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It's not as if this act was committed in cold blood.
I'm sure that will make everything all better for the deceased's parents.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:47 PM   #87
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I have observed in my life experiences that some people with lots of formal education tend to pick things apart and feel the need to place the blame on someone. Even if they don't fully understand the situation.
It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you place the blame.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:11 PM   #88
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We have different meanings for the same words. An accident to me is something caused by something other than man. A crash is caused by man. In this case, if there was no mechanical failure, the driver is completely at fault. Some call it "blame", I call it "cause".

This being Canada, I'm not sure how they do things. But I'm sure they are going to do a Traffic Homicide Investigation. Again, unless it was a mechanical failure, the driver will be found "at fault".

Intent has nothing to do with motor vehicle crashes. If the driver intended to hit and kill her, then it would not be a crash. It would be an aggravated battery, manslaughter, murder, etc. In other words, it would be a crime, not a crash. There would no crash report. There would be a criminal investigation.

Everyone keeps throwing around the word "intent". It doesn't matter what his intent was. In the ensuing civil trial, the driver's attorney is not going to use the defense of "freak accident".

And what's my experience to draw such a speculation?

13 years of law enforcement.
You are calling this a crash, which is a very general word, associated with vehicles. I am talking about an accident, which could involve anything. This event was both an accident and a crash. What I am arguing against is the statement people are making saying that the action he took was inherently dangerous. There is literally more risk driving down the road in your jeep, then there is performing this silly trick. What happened was an accident.

Your definition of an accident is incorrect. What happens if I drop a glass of milk on the floor. It's an accident. Not caused by nature, caused by man. I did not intend to drop it. If I had intent, it would be on purpose. It would have been premeditated, thought out, and deliberate.

You've been enforcing laws for 13 years and believe his intent has nothing to do with this situation? If his intent was to let the jeep roll off and hit a girl, then he would be going to jail. If he intended and took all possible steps to securely position and park his rig on the tire of another, and some mechanical failure, aka "freak accident" causes this tragedy. Can he be blamed for that? I doubt, and he shouldn't. If he was still operating the vehicle and had a medical emergency disabling him from operating the vehicle, can he be blamed? Probably not. If he accelerated and lost control hitting this young lady, can he be blamed? Yes!

His intentions have everything to do with the degree of punishment he deserves, if any.

I still don't see why the hell you are quoting me and arguing with me, because we have basically the same views. I am simply arguing the fact that his actions, as we know for sure, were not inherently dangerous. I agree with you on everything else you have said.


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I'm sure that will make everything all better for the deceased's parents.
What a distasteful, stupid comment to make. Yes, I would rather have someone pass away from an accident than a murder. Of course it doesn't change anything or make anything better. What the hell is your problem?
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:12 PM   #89
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Label it however you want, but it's tragic regardless...for all involved.

Like all tragedies, this one offers lessons to those of us still around...or safety reminders if we think that we already knew those lessons. While some bad things do just happen, it is often worthwhile to review to see if the same thing can be avoided in the future. Not to place blame...just to avoid repeating it. A dozen years making piles of mistakes as a firefighter taught me that much.

My thoughts and prayers for those involved/affected.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:41 PM   #90
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Some of you make me sick, not just with your sheer ignorance, but your complete lack of logic, and the resulting garbage you are spewing out as your opinion. You can play the blame game all you want, but some of the things being said in this thread are just plain stupid. We are surrounded by "risk" at all times. Every moment of our lives. If something is not done with intention, it is an accident.
Does this apply to drunk drivers also? They don't intend to kill families.

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