The '17 Wrangler's new suspension - Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK General Discussion Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 07-17-2014, 11:08 AM   #1
Jeeper
 
vitodivita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mount Prospect, Illinois
Posts: 79
The '17 Wrangler's new suspension

From Allpar: News: The 2017 Wrangler's new suspension

Interesting article. Jeep's got a very difficult proposition ahead of them.

vitodivita is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 11:53 AM   #2
Jeeper
 
spinlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 37.9° N, 121.7° W
Posts: 5,641
It's a good summary of previous articles. However, it does highlight the biggest drawback of an IFS: it will limit the ease and raise the cost of mods, as well as create a brand new learning curve for aftermarket manufacturers.

__________________
"Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out alive."
B. B.
spinlock is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 11:59 AM   #3
Jeeper
 
dawhitesJKU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: SoCal 714/562
Posts: 4,919
Send a message via Yahoo to dawhitesJKU
with all the rumors swirling around, I opted to forego the next generation... I just recently purchased a 2014.
__________________
Eat, Sleep, Jeep my build thread: http://www.wranglerforum.com/f314/dwights-willys-build-1343409.html#post20353241
2014 JKU Willys
2014 Cherokee Latitude
2015 Chrysler 200 LX
dawhitesJKU is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:05 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
WaltA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 3rd Planet, Sol system
Posts: 3,754
IMHO, that article doesn't even give us a solid clue as to what the new suspension will be (or not be).
__________________
Current Jeep:
2014 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon X
Previous Jeeps:
1987 Wrangler Laredo
1999 Cherokee Limited (Up Country,Trailer Tow)
[All custom ordered, purchased new]
WaltA is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:42 PM   #5
Jeeper
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 105
I spoke to my friend deep inside the Auburn Hills HQ...solid-axle's will remain on the next Wrangler, no worries, Jeep on!
285 HP is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:48 PM   #6
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,489
Bent jeep is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:59 PM   #7
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
At some point the wrangler will lose the solid front axle but I think jeep will try everything they can think of to improve mpg first. Lighter weight materials, 8/9 speed transmissions, diesel, smaller v6, etc...
msubrave is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 07:54 PM   #8
mallcrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 44,361
This is what fiat should do... Let me know your thoughts.

Keep the off road ready Rubicon models with solid axles.

Sport and Sahara to IFS
__________________
37x12.5x17 MTR's - Rock Krawler 3.5"
Coils - custom length X-Factor arms - Synergy steering -Rancho 5000X shocks - Adams front driveshaft.

My 2007 2 Door Build

General lift discussion thread. Have a question, need help, issues, selecting a kit, ask here

Click HERE to become a WranglerForum Supporting Member!
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 09:00 PM   #9
Jeeper
 
vitodivita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mount Prospect, Illinois
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
This is what fiat should do... Let me know your thoughts. Keep the off road ready Rubicon models with solid axles. Sport and Sahara to IFS
Jeep appears to be treading somewhere between not wanting to lose their core customers, but grabbing even more..the logical move would be two different suspension choices across the model line. I do not think isolating just the rubicon trim would be wise, because it's a near $10k increase in price from the sport and that's simply unfair.

I'm very interested to see what direction they take. Just incase, I do have a lifetime warranty on my 12' JK .
__________________
2015 JKU Bright White:
Metal Cloak Game Changer ARB Edition w/ EVO Coils, 35" Nitto Exo Grapplers, Method Wheels, ARB Stubby, Quadratec 9500iS Winch, JW Speaker EVO2 Headlights, SPOD, Teraflex Carrier, EVO Pro-Tek Skids
vitodivita is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 09:11 PM   #10
Jeeper
 
JTPhoto JK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Thunder Bay ON Canada
Posts: 1,593
No worries there. A Sport with IFS will likely cost as much as a Rubicon.
__________________
Jeff _(OIIIO)_

08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB, PitBull Rockers 37x12.50x17 on ProComp 7069 alloys, AEV Premium Bumper, D44 HD, 5.38, OX locker
JTPhoto JK is online now   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 10:21 PM   #11
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
NoGaBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Johns Creek, GA (ATL)
Posts: 2,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPhoto JK View Post
No worries there. A Sport with IFS will likely cost as much as a Rubicon.
LOL, well, seeing as how virtually every other vehicle sold in America has IFS AND IRS, and a huge number of them MSRP below the Sport's $24,000, AND include such post-nineteenth-century technology as unibody construction, NAV screens and power windows/doors/mirrors, Air Conditioning, at least as much HP/torque, and build-quality that is an order of magnitude better than a Wrangler's, at that entry price, yeah, I think Fiat could supply an IFS Wrangler for less than a thousand bucks more per unit.

Now, will they? Which may have been your point. If they NEED to sell the IFS version at $25k to keep selling Wranglers, they surely can. But if they can sell all they can build and sell them for 30-45k, then that's what the price will be. And who can blame them?
__________________
NoGaBiker

Current: Anvil '14 Willys JK 6M; Black '11 Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi-powered drone
Previous: Hunter Green '92 XJ Cherokee Laredo 4.0; White 92 XJ Cherokee Limited 4.0
NoGaBiker is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 10:34 PM   #12
Jeeper
 
Fr8dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Spokanistan, WA
Posts: 275
No solid axle= death of the Jeep "wrangler", end of an era, and end of the Jeep brand really. It will be interesting to see.
__________________
2014 RUBICON

MODS BY:
ARB Expedition1 RockKrawler Synergy JKS ProComp GoodYear BesTop TruckLite Rigid S-Pod
Build Thread
Fr8dawg is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 10:38 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,489
I haven't done much wheeling yet in the jeep to be able to compare the solid to the independent.

But I really had no problems wheeling an independent.
Bent jeep is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 11:20 PM   #14
Jeeper
 
Kimano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGaBiker View Post
LOL, well, seeing as how virtually every other vehicle sold in America has IFS AND IRS, and a huge number of them MSRP below the Sport's $24,000, AND include such post-nineteenth-century technology as unibody construction, NAV screens and power windows/doors/mirrors, Air Conditioning, at least as much HP/torque, and build-quality that is an order of magnitude better than a Wrangler's, at that entry price, yeah, I think Fiat could supply an IFS Wrangler for less than a thousand bucks more per unit.
Apples and Oranges.
__________________
2014 Granite Crystal JKURX
Kimano is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 11:32 PM   #15
Jeeper
 
2five22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
This is what fiat should do... Let me know your thoughts.

Keep the off road ready Rubicon models with solid axles.

Sport and Sahara to IFS
Bad decision from an accounting, marketing, and production standpoint.

There will have to be two production lines, with increases in parts costings, training, dealer availabilities, parts inventory, and increased levels of warranty costs.

The accounting, marketing, production managers, and Sergio Marchionne will never accept it.
2five22 is offline   Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 11:36 PM   #16
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Keep the rubicon relatively untouched and charge a slightly higher premium for it and redesign the sport/sahara. Wouldn't be completely un feasible
msubrave is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 03:14 AM   #17
Jeeper
 
Lusus_Naturae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: OKC, missing WI
Posts: 2,964
Not from production standards, it makes no sense to change so much between a Sport/Sahara and the Rubicon - it will be all or nothing. Minor changes like cloth vs leather seats is easy enough to do, but not the suspension.

I'd vote for new materials. Lighter weight metals, composites, etc. I'd like to see what that new transmission could do, but it been really buggy already. What Jeep really needs is a solid piece of machinery - no recalls, no buggy Canbus issues, simple.
__________________
2013 JKU Sport, billet, auto, 3.73, LSD, 315/75/16 Duratracs on MB 72, 10A springs, Bushwacker flatties

Sold - 2005 TJ, red, auto, 3.73, 33" Duratracs, 4" lift
Ice storm casualty in 2007 - 2003 TJ, green, auto, 3.73, 33" Duratracs, 4" lift
Lusus_Naturae is online now   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 04:16 AM   #18
Jeeper
 
Hilldweller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hog Waller, GA
Posts: 4,694
__________________
Gone camping,
Bill

not the same Hilldweller as the one on shtf website

Hilldweller is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 05:57 AM   #19
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
NoGaBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Johns Creek, GA (ATL)
Posts: 2,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimano View Post
Apples and Oranges.
Yes, apples and oranges and I'm about to show you how. If you are charged with building them both, and doing so in large quantities (250000 a year-ish numbers) you'll be very, very happy that you get to build the insanely cheap-to-make Wrangler rather than any of the excellent modern offerings one can buy for $25,000. I'm not talking about the fact that the Wrangler will do some things really well, and the Civic or Mustang V6 or Honda CR-V or Ford Flex will do different things really well. I'm talking about how much it costs to engineer and then build each of them.

If you can buy a flat windshield, bolt it with 8 bolts into a flat steel frame, stick that on a simple, slab-sided paper-thin stamped steel tub, slap in some insanely cheap carpet, two airbags in the conventional positions that airbags have been in for 20 years now, a rudimentary stereo with 3 dollar speakers; lower all of that down on a frame whose technology dates to the thirties and that rides on a spring/shock suspension from the same era, power it with a decent but far from innovative standard corporate V6 passenger car motor, and bolt up decent but lower-end diffs and transfer boxes, with very rudimentary stamped steel 16" wheels and cheap tires all around, you will be able to build those for a whole lot cheaper than the other people who have to provide sophisticated, higher-cost systems in every one of those areas I just named, and face the added challenge of having to assemble these far more complex systems into smaller, sleeker, and tighter structures that demand much more innovative assembly techniques.

Further more, if your customers are willing to accept 16mpg out of what is a poor accelerating (bottom 20th percentile at best), poor towing capacity, low-people-capacity vehicle, where other people's customers demand at least 10 and maybe 25 more mpg out of similar capacity vehicles, once again, you get to build yours a WHOLE lot cheaper than the other guy.

I'm just sayin'...
__________________
NoGaBiker

Current: Anvil '14 Willys JK 6M; Black '11 Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi-powered drone
Previous: Hunter Green '92 XJ Cherokee Laredo 4.0; White 92 XJ Cherokee Limited 4.0
NoGaBiker is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 06:11 AM   #20
Jeeper
 
JGreen06TJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Western Ohio
Posts: 4,066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr8dawg View Post
No solid axle= death of the Jeep "wrangler", end of an era, and end of the Jeep brand really. It will be interesting to see.
Removable top/doors/windows is what's selling the Jeep Wrangler. Most of the purchasers over the last 3-4 years will never take their vehicles offroad and will prefer IFS. Another large percentage of purchasers run fire roads and wooded trails versus rock climbing. IFS will not significantly affect these purchasers. A very small hardcore group (this forum) do more extreme trails with some rock crawling. This small group will be very disappointed and will either keep the used Jeep market in business or will look to the aftermarket for a solid axle swap.
JGreen06TJ is online now   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 08:07 AM   #21
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 127
This will increase the value of every current jeep built! I for one don't plan on trading my jeep in for a new one, I will still love my jeep in 20 years when it is a classic( unless it gets totaled).I like seeing old jeeps that have been taken care of and still out on the trail doing what they were designed to do.
dhc-6 is online now   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 09:03 AM   #22
Jeeper
 
RubiconSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pocono Mountains of N/E Pa, in the Woods
Posts: 3,526
Owned many a Toyota with IFS (4Runner, FjCruiser, Tacoma) they are a nightmare to try and get the Tire/Wheels balanced to avoid vibrations. Road Force or any method..... if they aren't dead perfect the rig vibrates HATE it.
As for DD my JKUL ... it drives like a dream.
RubiconSS is online now   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 09:10 AM   #23
Jeeper
 
Strokerswild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: MN
Posts: 1,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGaBiker View Post
Yes, apples and oranges and I'm about to show you how. If you are charged with building them both, and doing so in large quantities (250000 a year-ish numbers) you'll be very, very happy that you get to build the insanely cheap-to-make Wrangler rather than any of the excellent modern offerings one can buy for $25,000. I'm not talking about the fact that the Wrangler will do some things really well, and the Civic or Mustang V6 or Honda CR-V or Ford Flex will do different things really well. I'm talking about how much it costs to engineer and then build each of them.

If you can buy a flat windshield, bolt it with 8 bolts into a flat steel frame, stick that on a simple, slab-sided paper-thin stamped steel tub, slap in some insanely cheap carpet, two airbags in the conventional positions that airbags have been in for 20 years now, a rudimentary stereo with 3 dollar speakers; lower all of that down on a frame whose technology dates to the thirties and that rides on a spring/shock suspension from the same era, power it with a decent but far from innovative standard corporate V6 passenger car motor, and bolt up decent but lower-end diffs and transfer boxes, with very rudimentary stamped steel 16" wheels and cheap tires all around, you will be able to build those for a whole lot cheaper than the other people who have to provide sophisticated, higher-cost systems in every one of those areas I just named, and face the added challenge of having to assemble these far more complex systems into smaller, sleeker, and tighter structures that demand much more innovative assembly techniques.

Further more, if your customers are willing to accept 16mpg out of what is a poor accelerating (bottom 20th percentile at best), poor towing capacity, low-people-capacity vehicle, where other people's customers demand at least 10 and maybe 25 more mpg out of similar capacity vehicles, once again, you get to build yours a WHOLE lot cheaper than the other guy.

I'm just sayin'...
This.
__________________
Gone but not forgotten:
'98 TJ SE - '99 TJ Sahara - '12 JK Arctic
'13 JK Sahara...too many other toys...

I Jeep, therefore I am.
Strokerswild is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 12:44 PM   #24
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 389
I'm glad you saw that......years from now will anybody reminisce about death wobble?

Half kidding.
BLK2012 is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 12:53 PM   #25
Jeeper
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon
Posts: 31
I've been meaning to write this down for a while...

At Overland Expo there were two representatives from Jeep who are working on the new Wrangler (they said they're currently ankle-deep in it) - one was very much product and one was more senior and very much design. It sounded like the more senior person reports directly to Manley.
Sorry, I forget their names.

They told a good story....

At the first "new Wrangler meeting" at Jeep which I gather was not so long ago (~6-12 months) with obviously a LOT of people, the first thing up on the projector was a picture of a gravestone. It said "The person who killed the Wrangler" and the name was "Insert your name here".
The message was nobody at Jeep wants to be that person, and they're all very, VERY aware of it.

The more senior guy talked about how they're at max capacity right now, mostly because of "mall crawler" buyers.
He said he thinks that's just a fad, and Wrangler needs to stay true to it's heritage because once that fad ends, it's the enthusiasts that will keep it going sales wise.
(He didn't say this next bit - it's my take) If they water-down the Wrangler to cater to the Mall-crawlers, then the fad ends, they'll be dead. Safer to keep it as the enthusiasts want, and let fads be what fads are.

They asked us all for input about what we'd like to see on the new Wrangler, and some of their questions/thoughts showed the kind of things they're considering changing.
I'll list some of them below in random order.

1. Diesel. EVERYONE asked for it, and they said "we know, we know". They really wouldn't say yes or no, just that they know it's badly wanted. We talked about it for a LONG time, and they get it, they just wouldn't say anything either way, other than "We know people want it".
We didn't talk about any other engine options.

2. IFS - EVERYONE talked about how in the other brands (Land Rover, Toyota) the loyalists have abandoned the new models because you can't get a SFA anymore
All the enthusiasts just buy an old model, and that's what will happen to Wrangler if it goes to IFS.
They said they get it - and I believe them.

3. I asked about transmission options, they said absolutely for certain they'll have a standard option. (I was worried they might go auto-only) It's not even a question.

4. They asked how important the fold-down windscreen was to most people. Everyone said "Meh" and they agreed. I will not be surprised if it goes away.

5. They asked about things like on-board air, 35s, etc as options, obviously they're thinking about these things.

6. They asked if everyone wants a full-size spare and EVERYONE said yes, and they agreed.

7. People talked about how nice it is to rip out the carpet and hose it out, etc. and they absolutely agreed that's a must.
I think it was the more senior guy that said that's his favorite thing about his Wrangler. He took the carpet out years ago and never put it back, and loves it.

8. I (and others) talked about a "stripper" model - and they asked for clarification on what that would mean - I said minimum electronics, no power windows, no cruise, etc. etc. All the Rubicon running gear without any luxury items.
They were listening for sure, but I'm not holding out hope.

9. Everyone talked about how important it is to be able to heavily modify the Wrangler as each person sees fit. i.e. aftermarket everything.
They agreed.

10. They asked about doors off mirrors - everyone said that would be great, and they said it's something they'd like to figure out.

Towards the end the more senior guy said "On that suspension thing" (I assume IFS/SFA) "It's not going to happen. Don't worry about it".
I take that to mean Jeep will do everything they can to keep it SFA if they can for emissions/mileage/safety. I'm confident they will.

All in all it was a great Q&A session, and it really gave me confidence Jeep is listening to their customers and they're taking the Wrangler re-design very, very seriously.
They have a very good thing right now, they're not going to mess it up.

-Dan

It was cool to see Dave H. from AEV sitting in the back row, listening intently to everything that was said
__________________
Africa circumnavigation in a Jeep Wrangler @ The Road Chose Me (previously Alaska->Argentina in a TJ)
Follow: Facebook / Twitter @dangrec
--
WikiOverland.org - Everything you need to know to Travel Overland across a country, continent or the world.
grecy is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 02:20 PM   #26
The Bad Guy

WF Supporting Member
 
daggo66's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NJ exile living in Baltimore
Posts: 22,737
I'd like to add something for all the "sky is falling people". The IFS discussion isn't new. Jeep had IFS test mules for both the TJ and JK.
__________________
Tom

"I've got two things in this world, my balls and my word and I don't break them for no one."
daggo66 is offline   Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 03:14 PM   #27
Jeeper
 
vitodivita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mount Prospect, Illinois
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by grecy View Post
I've been meaning to write this down for a while...
I appreciate hearing this, it's cool to hear their general thought process and attitude towards the next-generation wrangler. Although they aren't obligated to, if they have figured out how to make this one without resorting to killing the model, perhaps they could throw a public statement out there and calm the nerves?
vitodivita is offline   Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 04:00 AM   #28
Jeeper
 
Hilldweller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hog Waller, GA
Posts: 4,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGreen06TJ View Post
Removable top/doors/windows is what's selling the Jeep Wrangler....
Not to me... Not at all. I might take out the Freedom panels once or twice a season but the rest of the roof and doors will never come off.

For me it's the platform, plain and simple.
If the Wrangler didn't have real axles, there wouldn't be a Wrangler in my driveway.
If it didn't offer a manual trans, there wouldn't be a Wrangler in my driveway.
If it weren't buildable, have replaceable headlights, or otherwise un-mod-able, there wouldn't be one in the driveway.
__________________
Gone camping,
Bill

not the same Hilldweller as the one on shtf website

Hilldweller is offline   Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 05:42 AM   #29
Jeeper
 
Omar Brannstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGreen06TJ View Post
Removable top/doors/windows is what's selling the Jeep Wrangler. .
For many I think its that.

I do live in Sweden, not so warm here only a short while on the summer

But for me not. I have taken out the freedom panels twize and my passengers complained that it got windy and cold and noisy. I had a very difficult time to find a place for the panels in the rear, I have alot of camping stuff in the rear.

I have no place to store the top. I have never removed my doors.

There are other advantages with the hardtop system

I do like the bars, You can fit so much on them.

With my 2 door, i had a net at the ceiling from bar to bar and had sleeping bags there etc.



In my unlimited. Can put stuff on the bars





I dont think there are so many other vehicles that can have sturdy basket or shelf in them in the rear above the floor. I know some but they have brackets from the floor that are in the way for stuff.

I am very happy with my Frontrunner interior rack that installs on the ledge where the hardtop mounts. If wrangler did not have a removable top it would probably be difficult to have this interior rack or other on the bars. With this interior rack You can still sleep on the floor and move up your camping stuff on the shelf to make room.







__________________
2013 10th Anniversary Rubicon, delivered in one week
Omar Brannstrom is offline   Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 10:40 AM   #30
Jeeper
 
getahemi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Barrie Ontario
Posts: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawhitesJKU View Post
with all the rumors swirling around, I opted to forego the next generation... I just recently purchased a 2014.
So you didn't have the Cherokee very long. Was it not capable enough for mild off roading?

__________________
15 Hydro Blue Unlimited Sport S, 6 speed, AC, power group, and soft top.
http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/a...c/IMG_1305.jpg
getahemi is offline   Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Download our Mobile App

» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:52 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2015 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC