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Old 02-13-2012, 07:40 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by ORNGCR8 View Post
Update fellas: good to go! My dealer really did the right thing and took care of ordering in new F and R track bars and then installed MY bolts through the new bushings (also the F911 bolt kit, mine is the Synergy Suspension kit that I got through EAD, $65 w/ free shipping cuz their cool like that!) Everything is now good, snug and tight and I can sleep at night knowing there's no more play down there. $65 for peace of mind makes me a happy Jeeper. Good luck to you all as well!
Not everyday a dealer will do this. Install non-regulation (OEM) parts of any kind. Is it still under under warranty as well? Saved them a buck, anyway.

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Old 02-13-2012, 09:11 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Punkin Slinger View Post
I bought the kit from Poly Performance about six weeks ago. It looks like I could have saved $20 by buying from Northridge, but I didn't know they also had a kit.

My JKU is in transit to Alaska. My wife and I will be flying up 15 May to pick it up at my son's house to drive back to Wisconsin. I will install the Poly kit when we return and at the same time that I do the RC 2-1/2" lift. We will probably have over 4k miles on it when we get back.

My question is, should I ream out any holes that do not allow the 9/16" bolts to fit? I could run a 9/16" drill bit through any tight holes. Has anyone done this?

Thanks.
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No, definitely not, you are trying to eliminate the play in these places, not maintain it. That is the whole point of buying larger bolts. The bolts do fit, they are snug, as they should be. Making sure the holes are all properly aligned and a little tappy tap with a rubber mallet are part of the process, but that is what will help to keep you death wobble free and happy. It really is a bunt to do, and if you are doing the install on a lift at the same time, you need to remove/loosen all of these bolt anyways as part of your lift instal- perfect time to do this mod too.

He said RC. So I'm assuming he means Rock Krawler lift kit. If he has their arms he will have to drill the holes on the arms out as they are 14mm as well as the track bar.

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Old 02-13-2012, 09:15 PM   #333
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #334
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Ruff country

Ah gotcha, completely slip my mind. Thanks.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:10 PM   #335
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Not everyday a dealer will do this. Install non-regulation (OEM) parts of any kind. Is it still under under warranty as well? Saved them a buck, anyway.
True but perhaps this dealer is aware of this issue and saw the new bolts as part of the correct fix.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:49 AM   #336
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Doubtful if it will ever happen. How many people have been killed so far?
These people already know of the problem, don't care, and full know of the enormous costs involved to correct their incompetence. I many cases, it's not just changing the bolts but other associated parts also that are being damaged by this. Since anybody with any mechanical knowledge would know better, it's pretty obvious that somewhere, someplace they have or had a super cheap cheap supplier of this wrong hardware, otherwise they would have to be complete idiots. This kind of thing along with the other issues presented on these forums and much like the old days with Chrysler, swore me off of that company decades ago. Then they go and buy Jeep, so what's a person to do? Like Lee Iaccoca said in his book about the Dodge Aspen, that is was a prototype put upon the American public for testing.
Having said this, I know that they have all at one time or the other did dreadful things and the one that's probably most infamous, was the Ford Pinto, which killed thousands, caused by their exploding gas tanks, and they still refused, deeming it cheaper to pay off lawsuits.

1. With expected unit sales of 11 million Pintos, and a total cost per unit to modify the fuel tank of $11, a recall would have cost Ford $121 million.

2. But, using mathematical formulations of a probable 2,100 accidents that might result in 180 burn deaths, 180 seriously burned victims, and 2,100 burned-out vehicles, the "unit cost" per accident, assuming an out-of-court settlement, came to a probable $200,000 per death, $67,000 per serious injury, and $700 per burned-out vehicle, leaving a grand total of $49.53 million.

3. Allowing the accidents to occur represented a net savings of nearly $70 million.

4. Therefore, a human life was mathematically proven to be worth less than an $11 part.

https://www.google.com/webhp?rlz=1C1...3&ix=sea&ion=1

Story short. Don't be expecting any recalls in this century or I for one, will be very surprised.
A very sad, disappointing, but excellent response.

Is there anyway someone can take a photo, and show which bolts are the ones that need to be changed??? I have 1600 miles on my rig, and hope not much damage has been done, so I want to get them changed out ASAP.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:07 AM   #337
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A DIY would be even better for those of us new to the Jeep scene.
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:59 AM   #338
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Is there anyway someone can take a photo, and show which bolts are the ones that need to be changed???
This picture was posted by planman in the thread about diagnosing death wobble:



You can clearly see the bolts for the front track bar and lower control arms highlighted in light green and dark blue respectively.

Hope that helps.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:34 AM   #339
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This picture was posted by planman in the thread about diagnosing death wobble:



You can clearly see the bolts for the front track bar and lower control arms highlighted in light green and dark blue respectively.

Hope that helps.
It does a little bit. I guess we change all the bolts that are on those two things right?

Now, is it unbolt then bolt, or do you need to jack the truck up, remove stuff, etc etc etc?
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:57 AM   #340
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Doubtful if it will ever happen. How many people have been killed so far?
These people already know of the problem, don't care, and full know of the enormous costs involved to correct their incompetence. I many cases, it's not just changing the bolts but other associated parts also that are being damaged by this. Since anybody with any mechanical knowledge would know better, it's pretty obvious that somewhere, someplace they have or had a super cheap cheap supplier of this wrong hardware, otherwise they would have to be complete idiots. This kind of thing along with the other issues presented on these forums and much like the old days with Chrysler, swore me off of that company decades ago. Then they go and buy Jeep, so what's a person to do? Like Lee Iaccoca said in his book about the Dodge Aspen, that is was a prototype put upon the American public for testing.
Having said this, I know that they have all at one time or the other did dreadful things and the one that's probably most infamous, was the Ford Pinto, which killed thousands, caused by their exploding gas tanks, and they still refused, deeming it cheaper to pay off lawsuits.
Not to diminish what happened, but 27 people were killed, not "thousands."
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:00 AM   #341
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You don't even have to jack it up from what I understand.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:00 AM   #342
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WOW that is an awesome pic with highlights, thanks slpnbyu for posting that, And thanks planman for taking it.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:12 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by tropical36 View Post
Having said this, I know that they have all at one time or the other did dreadful things and the one that's probably most infamous, was the Ford Pinto, which killed thousands, caused by their exploding gas tanks, and they still refused, deeming it cheaper to pay off lawsuits.

1. With expected unit sales of 11 million Pintos, and a total cost per unit to modify the fuel tank of $11, a recall would have cost Ford $121 million.

2. But, using mathematical formulations of a probable 2,100 accidents that might result in 180 burn deaths, 180 seriously burned victims, and 2,100 burned-out vehicles, the "unit cost" per accident, assuming an out-of-court settlement, came to a probable $200,000 per death, $67,000 per serious injury, and $700 per burned-out vehicle, leaving a grand total of $49.53 million.

3. Allowing the accidents to occur represented a net savings of nearly $70 million.

4. Therefore, a human life was mathematically proven to be worth less than an $11 part.
Just to add a footnote to this, I don't know if that's what Ford did or if that's what Chrysler is thinking now, but I can say the legal system (at present anyway) is structured to avoid this kind of logic.

Evidence that this was actually part of the decision-making process would be utterly devastating in a lawsuit not only for personal injury but also for a consumer protection claim--like unfair and deceptive trade practices. Both of those claims (among others) provide for "punitive damages." Unlike "general damages" which are meant to compensate the injured party for the amount of their actual injury, "punitive damages" are designed to punish the offender regardless of the actual costs to the injured person. Therefore, the offender's net worth, earnings, profits, and so on are all presented to the jury because a $1 million dollar "punishment" may be financially crushing to one offender but a drop in the bucket to another.

I can only imagine the level of exposure a business is setting itself up for in making decisions this way. An email or something similar from a decision-maker opining something to the effect that human life is worth less than an $11 part could make way for a huge, huge punitive damage award.

As a result, the business decision of a recall versus "paying off lawsuits" isn't really quite as mathematical as is being suggested here. A recall presents a set cost. It can be budgeted, accounted for, and (hopefully in the company's eyes) passed on to the consumer. By contrast, the exposure associated with personal injury and consumer protection lawsuits is limitless. I expect this is why you do in fact see recalls for repairs with an actual cost of just a few dollars, as we did recently with Toyota.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:55 AM   #344
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Thanks for the info. I will NOT ream any holes for the Synergy kit....just use a bigger hammer if needed.

By the way, RC was for Rough Country.....sorry for the confusion.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:23 PM   #345
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You don't even have to jack it up from what I understand.
I did mine without jacking it up. Just laid on garage floor and worked one bolt at a time.

If you have access to a lift use it...much easier!!
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:31 PM   #346
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I did mine without jacking it up. Just laid on garage floor and worked one bolt at a time.

If you have access to a lift use it...much easier!!
it's not easier with a lift, you want zero strain on the bolts when you go to remove them and replace them. parking on flat level ground is the easiest way to do this. one tool I might add to the list is a ratchet strap; in case any of the holes are a bit tight or a bit off, you can use the strap (attaching one end to the tire and the other end to the frame) to re-align the holes. It might "suck" to crawl around under the jeep but trust me, it is the best way to replace all the bolts.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:35 PM   #347
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You absolutely do not want to lift your rig with a jack or car lift to change the trackbar bolts.

I believe this is clear in the video referenced earlier in this thread.

You only need a helper to slightly turn the steering wheel to release pressure on the first bolt you remove and to line things up when you reinstall the second new bolt.
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Old 02-14-2012, 06:43 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by OH9JK

I did mine without jacking it up. Just laid on garage floor and worked one bolt at a time.

If you have access to a lift use it...much easier!!
So that's all there is to it? Lay on the floor and remove a bolt then install another? Seems simple. Too simple. I don't have a lift, just rhino ramps. Is it better that the truck is flat on the ground?
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:12 PM   #349
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It is hard to work the torque wrench and get any leverage. It is doable but not fun.

Not sure why snek and planman say not to use a lift...the guys installing lifts for a living sure as hell don't do it laying on their garage floor.

Anyhow it sure tightens up the suspension. I really noticed it while hitting bumps...no more loose rattles.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:17 PM   #350
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It is hard to work the torque wrench and get any leverage. It is doable but not fun.

Not sure why snek and planman say not to use a lift...the guys installing lifts for a living sure as hell don't do it laying on their garage floor.

Anyhow it sure tightens up the suspension. I really noticed it while hitting bumps...no more loose rattles.
if you do it on a lift, have the jacks to move an axle as well. the reason to do it on the ground is to put zero strain on the bolts; if you use a car jack, you will be putting torsion on all the bolts on both ends of the LCAs. If you have a 2 point lift, and an axle jack to move it around sure. But at that point, you have a professional shop, and don't need us to tell you how to do it. Seriously, do not try to jack up your jeep to swap these bolts. it really really really sucks to try to align these holes unless you have shop tools on hand. If the holes are off, a ratchet strap is the best bet to fix things up. Now, if you want to swap the bolts, then lift it up to use the torque wrench, go crazy. Because yeah, using the torque wrench on the axle side bolts is a nightmare! Also, for folks that are lazy like me and don't read, you can use a 21mm head on the bolts side, but you need a 7/8s wrench for the nut
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:29 PM   #351
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if you do it on a lift, have the jacks to move an axle as well. the reason to do it on the ground is to put zero strain on the bolts; if you use a car jack, you will be putting torsion on all the bolts on both ends of the LCAs. If you have a 2 point lift, and an axle jack to move it around sure. But at that point, you have a professional shop, and don't need us to tell you how to do it. Seriously, do not try to jack up your jeep to swap these bolts. it really really really sucks to try to align these holes unless you have shop tools on hand. If the holes are off, a ratchet strap is the best bet to fix things up. Now, if you want to swap the bolts, then lift it up to use the torque wrench, go crazy. Because yeah, using the torque wrench on the axle side bolts is a nightmare! Also, for folks that are lazy like me and don't read, you can use a 21mm head on the bolts side, but you need a 7/8s wrench for the nut
So doing it in a driveway at home is doable? I don't have access to a lift. Also, what size sockets are required for this? I have a standard set, but not sure if I have a 21mm.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:33 PM   #352
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21 mm to take the old crap off. You will want a 1/2" drive with a long breaker bar!

To install the new ones you need 7/8" and 13/16"

Torque to 125 ft lbs each
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:42 PM   #353
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So doing it in a driveway at home is doable? I don't have access to a lift. Also, what size sockets are required for this? I have a standard set, but not sure if I have a 21mm.
do it on the driveway or garage floor, or a parking lot. its really fast and easy. best way I found to do it was just to use a breaker bar (21mm socket, 21mm wrench) to loose the nut. Then use a wrench (or an impact wrench ) to back the bolt out. The control arm will drop out of the frame, so the best way to do it is the back the bolt out almost all the way, grab the new bolt (with washer on it), pull the bolt out, put the new one in. There should be no resistance on the bolts with it on level ground, so really as soon as the nut comes off, play with the bolt. You should just be able to slide it right out. I Loosened all the bolts, then one by one swapped the new bolt in, and hand threaded the washer and nut on (direction does not matter in terms of what size the nut and bolt head are on. Since I was using an impact wrench, I had the upper bolts on the outside, and the axle side bolts on the inside so I could use the impact wrench). Once all the new bolts are in, tighten things back up. Same thing with the track bars, use a breaker bar, get the nut off, pull the bolt and replace. As simple as that. The hard part is really re-tightening everything. You wont have the catch nuts, so an adjustable wrench or some type of 7/8s wrench is needed for the new nuts, 21mm will work for the bolts. (tool checklist at this point is a breaker bar, 21mm socket, 21mm wrench, and 7/8s wrench, and a torque wrench that can handle 125 foot lbs (not inch pounds). A ratchet or impact wrench will also make things easier, everything on 1/2" drives). My personal method of retorqueing is to find something to brace the wrench against, ideally the frame, and then just pull that bastard. Then I just use a flathead screwdriver/prybar to pop the wrench back out. then on to the next one! If you are worried about the difficulty to retorque, I would replace the track bar bolts first, since they will be the most difficult to get access to. Then replace the 4 front lower control arm bolts. and finish with the rear (or do the rear and then the front, order doesnt matter). Just do it in parts to play it safe. It is easy, if you are used to the bolts, probably an hour job. all with all 4 tires on the ground the whole time.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:01 PM   #354
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do it on the driveway or garage floor, or a parking lot. its really fast and easy. best way I found to do it was just to use a breaker bar (21mm socket, 21mm wrench) to loose the nut. Then use a wrench (or an impact wrench ) to back the bolt out. The control arm will drop out of the frame, so the best way to do it is the back the bolt out almost all the way, grab the new bolt (with washer on it), pull the bolt out, put the new one in. There should be no resistance on the bolts with it on level ground, so really as soon as the nut comes off, play with the bolt. You should just be able to slide it right out. I Loosened all the bolts, then one by one swapped the new bolt in, and hand threaded the washer and nut on (direction does not matter in terms of what size the nut and bolt head are on. Since I was using an impact wrench, I had the upper bolts on the outside, and the axle side bolts on the inside so I could use the impact wrench). Once all the new bolts are in, tighten things back up. Same thing with the track bars, use a breaker bar, get the nut off, pull the bolt and replace. As simple as that. The hard part is really re-tightening everything. You wont have the catch nuts, so an adjustable wrench or some type of 7/8s wrench is needed for the new nuts, 21mm will work for the bolts. (tool checklist at this point is a breaker bar, 21mm socket, 21mm wrench, and 7/8s wrench, and a torque wrench that can handle 125 foot lbs (not inch pounds). A ratchet or impact wrench will also make things easier, everything on 1/2" drives). My personal method of retorqueing is to find something to brace the wrench against, ideally the frame, and then just pull that bastard. Then I just use a flathead screwdriver/prybar to pop the wrench back out. then on to the next one! If you are worried about the difficulty to retorque, I would replace the track bar bolts first, since they will be the most difficult to get access to. Then replace the 4 front lower control arm bolts. and finish with the rear (or do the rear and then the front, order doesnt matter). Just do it in parts to play it safe. It is easy, if you are used to the bolts, probably an hour job. all with all 4 tires on the ground the whole time.
Ok, I think I sort of got it. I guess it will make more sense when I am under there. I assume I need an open end wrench because a closed end will not be able to be removed right?
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:11 PM   #355
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This picture was posted by planman in the thread about diagnosing death wobble:



You can clearly see the bolts for the front track bar and lower control arms highlighted in light green and dark blue respectively.

Hope that helps.
Stupid question from someone who's still learning. But for the lower control arms I see the need for 4 bolts, one on each end of each arm Where do the other 4 bolts go. (There are 8 bolts required). Same for the trackbar. I see the need for 2 bolts so where do the other 2 go?
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:20 PM   #356
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Ok, I think I sort of got it. I guess it will make more sense when I am under there. I assume I need an open end wrench because a closed end will not be able to be removed right?
Closed end will work just as well (I prefer the closed, easier to lock it in in my opinion), but honestly it won't matter; 21mm is not a standard size so you will be buying a special wrench for it (hit up autozone or pep boys for ), 7/8s is a bit more standard, but if you need it, same story. I'll save you the trip; home depot and harbor freight do not sell these wrench sizes separately. for the torque wrench, impact wrench, breaker bar, and sockets, yes. but for the 7/8s and 21mm wrench, they are not. sears/autozone will be a better bet for those. and I'm not a lowes boy, so I can't comment on them, but I bet they wouldn't have it either

in terms of the bolts, front and rear track bar = 4 bolt (one frame side, one axle side), 4 control arms = 8 bolts (1 frame side, one axle side. the track bar bolts are the shorter ones. each bolt gets one nut, 2 washers. make sure when you put a bolt on, that you place a washer on the bolt, insert into the jeep, place another washer on, then the nut. It's pretty straight forward. It'll make perfect sense once you get down and look at the bolts
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:08 PM   #357
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The new bolts are 21mm bolt head 22mm nut. Either metric or the standard equivalent will work.

Keep the jeep on level ground. I used a big screw driver and rubber mallet to help line up the holes and tap the bolts in. Remember to tq the nut not the head of the bolt (if you can).
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:03 PM   #358
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Just to add a footnote to this, I don't know if that's what Ford did or if that's what Chrysler is thinking now, but I can say the legal system (at present anyway) is structured to avoid this kind of logic.

Evidence that this was actually part of the decision-making process would be utterly devastating in a lawsuit not only for personal injury but also for a consumer protection claim--like unfair and deceptive trade practices. Both of those claims (among others) provide for "punitive damages." Unlike "general damages" which are meant to compensate the injured party for the amount of their actual injury, "punitive damages" are designed to punish the offender regardless of the actual costs to the injured person. Therefore, the offender's net worth, earnings, profits, and so on are all presented to the jury because a $1 million dollar "punishment" may be financially crushing to one offender but a drop in the bucket to another.

I can only imagine the level of exposure a business is setting itself up for in making decisions this way. An email or something similar from a decision-maker opining something to the effect that human life is worth less than an $11 part could make way for a huge, huge punitive damage award.

As a result, the business decision of a recall versus "paying off lawsuits" isn't really quite as mathematical as is being suggested here. A recall presents a set cost. It can be budgeted, accounted for, and (hopefully in the company's eyes) passed on to the consumer. By contrast, the exposure associated with personal injury and consumer protection lawsuits is limitless. I expect this is why you do in fact see recalls for repairs with an actual cost of just a few dollars, as we did recently with Toyota.
While I agree in general with your post, I would find it hard to believe that corporate attorneys and financial gurus didn't crunch the numbers and look for the cheapest way out. In the case of the Ford Pinto, paying off lawsuits versus doing a recall saved the corporation money and eventually the lawsuits ceased.
In today's society with internet and media coverage, this gamble would be more risky but I still believe automakers still consider all alternatives.

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It is hard to work the torque wrench and get any leverage. It is doable but not fun.

Not sure why snek and planman say not to use a lift...the guys installing lifts for a living sure as hell don't do it laying on their garage floor.

Anyhow it sure tightens up the suspension. I really noticed it while hitting bumps...no more loose rattles.
Right or wrong, I have been told by several experienced installers that the control arm and track bar bolts should be torqued with the weight of the vehicle on the wheels. The logic is if the suspension is hanging freely and the bolts are torqued, once the vehicle is on the ground, undue stress is added to the bushings at the end of each arm and track bar.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:31 AM   #359
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The new bolts are 21mm bolt head 22mm nut. Either metric or the standard equivalent will work.

Keep the jeep on level ground. I used a big screw driver and rubber mallet to help line up the holes and tap the bolts in. Remember to tq the nut not the head of the bolt (if you can).
So is there enough room to have a ratchet on both ends of all the bolts (nut end and bolt head end) or does one end require something thinner and/or an open ended wrench?

Just ordered a 21mm deep socket, a 21mm dual wrench, a 22mm deep socket, a 22mm dual wrench, and a crescent wrench. I should have all the tools to do it all now.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:42 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by SilverRubi View Post


Right or wrong, I have been told by several experienced installers that the control arm and track bar bolts should be torqued with the weight of the vehicle on the wheels. The logic is if the suspension is hanging freely and the bolts are torqued, once the vehicle is on the ground, undue stress is added to the bushings at the end of each arm and track bar.
I while won't step on any toes, since I am not very familiar with Jeeps, this is the correct way to do things on sports/race cars. The weight of the car must be included/used when dealing with anything related to suspension. However, the "devil's advocate" argument is that when a car is on the ground on it's own wheels on it's own weight, that is considered "with weight." Artificially adding stress (compressing suspension, moving axles, etc etc) is not considered "natural" when talking about suspension setup.

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