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Old 01-30-2012, 09:45 AM   #241
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Didn't know after all these years of being on a forum haha. Thanks guys!

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Old 01-30-2012, 11:17 AM   #242
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Hello everyone. Been reading the Wrangler forum for the last few month's and I have gained a lot of knowledge on what types of modifications I will need, and how to go about installing them. I didn't join the forum until I read this particular one. I find it hard to believe that Jeep would purposely put the wrong size bolts onto brand new wranglers (I mean, this is what I do at home when I don't have the exact size in my tool box I have a 2012 JKUR on order and it should be delivered by the end of the month. I am willing to take a stand on this issue and have some one take a look at these bolts before I will take delivery on it. But I want to make sure that there will be a noticeable slop on these bolts even when they are brand new. Let me know what you guys think.

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Old 01-30-2012, 11:26 AM   #243
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I've known of some people that refused to take deleivery of the jeep until they install the bolts they bought. Your will have slop in it. If you look at the the first post. That's my 12'. Dave at northridge and poly both sell the kits.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:02 PM   #244
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Installed this kit yesterday. Got a link up for it here http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/pol...es-136421.html
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:15 AM   #245
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I've been reading this thread, and similar threads on two other jeep forums with interest.

And before I decide to replace all these bolts, I have to wonder: What type of connection are they designing for here? Is it a bearing type connection or slip-critical? Our mechanical engineer friends will be well-versed in this concept. And I had to dig back into the cobwebs to refresh myself a bit. I am not a mechanical engineer, but was forced to learn enough of it, like most other disciplines, to complete my studies for another engineering discipline. So bear with me, and feel free to correct me if I am in error. I'll copy and paste something I just robbed from another site, relative to structural steel design (which I am more familiar with than automotive/mechanical stuff):

"Types of Bolted Connections

1) Bearing-Type Connections:
A bearing-type connection is the most common type of bolted
connection. It is used in most simple-shear connections and in
situations when loosening or fatigue due to vibration or load
fluctuations are NOT design considerations. In these connections,
bolts are tightened to the “snug-tight” condition, as defined as the
tightness attained by a few impacts of an impact wrench or the full
effort of an iron worker using an ordinary spud wrench. The design
strength of bearing-type fasteners is per AISC Eq. J3-1 p. 16.1-108.

2) Slip-Critical Connections:
A slip-critical connection is one in which loosening due to vibration or
load reversals are to be considered. Also, holes that are oversize or
slotted shall be designed as slip-critical connections. Bolts that are
used in slip-critical connections must be pre-tensioned per AISC Table
J3.1 p. 16.1-103. In addition, the design strength of the connection
must be checked in accordance with AISC J3.8, J3.9 and J3.10 p.
16.1-109 thru 111. As an alternative, AISC Table 7-3 and 7-4 p. 7-24
thru 27 can be used."

Understand that the AISC references above relate to American Institute of Steel Construction specs, which apply to structural steel (think buildings, bridges). To me this is more familiar territory. But steel, is steel.

In looking at the control arms and track bar, I have to wonder if the joints are considered to be slip critical. In this case, load is not considered to be transferred from the "face" of the bolt to the adjacent metal (hole), but rather it is transferred via the "clamping" effect created by the compression of the nut and bolt head upon the washers, and in turn ,on to the outer surfaces. I wonder this, because of the fact that there most likely is a consideration regarding load reversals and vibration in these components. Automotive engineers chime in here any time - Like any professional, I really don't like commenting outside of my area of expertise - but no one else has brought this up, at least here, so I will.

If these are slip-critical rather than bearing connections, then (when torque has been established, and is maintained) the shaft of the bolt beyond where it needs to be threaded, (whether shouldered or fully threaded) is somewhat irrelevant. But what is key, in keeping this joint from slopping around, is the proper torque. So, if that be the case, then it may be more a matter of maintaining proper torque, whether that be after changing out parts (lift, etc.) or via regular maintenance. If these are a slip-critical type joint then we are assuming rotation of the component occurs via the deformation of the rubber around the central bushing. And I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. But the load reversal and vibration part seem to fit the application here.

I've spent a good part of the evening pondering this, and its getting late. I'll accomplish little more than wasting bandwidth at this point. Must be someone on this forum that has experience with the design of these connections or something similar.?

Best,

Second Wind
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:53 AM   #246
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I would be interested to know the answers to your questions Second Wind. I'm even less of an expert than you, but upon Googling the concept of slip-ciritcal bolted connections, it appears that term is used (as far as I could tell) only with respect to mostly-static structures (like bridges and buildings); whereas the front suspension and the bolted connections on a Jeep's trackbars and control arms are dynamic mechanical connections. I don't know the answer, but perhaps different terminologies and categories apply to dynamic machine connections than apply to static fixed connections. The trackbar and control arm joints on a Jeep are not vibrating versus nonvibrating (as in a fixed structure). They actually are designed dynamically to rotate around the bolted connection. As I said, I'm no expert, but I wonder if that distinction is relevant.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:46 AM   #247
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You are thinking about it to hard. When you have a bushing or sleeve of a bushing rotating on a axis you need a shoulder bolt for it. Jeep is notorious for not doing this to save money.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:12 PM   #248
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Wow! I am so out of my league right now. And worried too. I dont even change a tire on my Jeep, I know I know, but that's what Road Side Assistance is for. The thought of trying to explain this to some shop is making my head spin and to make it worse is "checking to see if (some bolt) needs to be retorqued' periodically??? Good God I'm lost but dont want to ignore it either because if this DW ever happened to me, I probably wouldn't get back in.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:15 PM   #249
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Wow! I am so out of my league right now. And worried too. I dont even change a tire on my Jeep, I know I know, but that's what Road Side Assistance is for. The thought of trying to explain this to some shop is making my head spin and to make it worse is "checking to see if (some bolt) needs to be retorqued' periodically??? Good God I'm lost but dont want to ignore it either because if this DW ever happened to me, I probably wouldn't get back in.
No shop required. If you want to swap in new bolts, order them from the link and find some local jeepers who can introduce you to basic wrench turning. Offer beer and pizza.

If a shop is necessary, it's still easy. Order the bolts and just ask they use these new bolts to replace the "track bar bolts" and the "LCA bolts." No reason for alarm.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:21 PM   #250
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No shop required. If you want to swap in new bolts, order them from the link and find some local jeepers who can introduce you to basic wrench turning. Offer beer and pizza.

If a shop is necessary, it's still easy. Order the bolts and just ask they use these new bolts to replace the "track bar bolts" and the "LCA bolts." No reason for alarm.
Wait a minute, I forgot about the beer from last weekend! When do we get the pizza?
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:27 PM   #251
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... if this DW ever happened to me, I probably wouldn't get back in.
Just think about it differently. If this "DW" occurs as you're falling asleep on the highway, it might wake you up and save your life. Perhaps we should start calling it "Life Wobble."
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:30 PM   #252
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Wait a minute, I forgot about the beer from last weekend! When do we get the pizza?
I dutifully dropped off 24 cans of Copper Bell in Dustin's fridge.

When never did get to the pizza or even FOOD. Just so much to do that it was never ordered and folks headed out. I do indeed owe my fellow wrench turners some eats.

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Just think about it differently. If this "DW" occurs as you're falling asleep on the highway, it might wake you up and save your life. Perhaps we should start calling it "Life Wobble."
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:28 PM   #253
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Just think about it differently. If this "DW" occurs as you're falling asleep on the highway, it might wake you up and save your life. Perhaps we should start calling it "Life Wobble."
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:45 PM   #254
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If a shop is necessary, it's still easy. Order the bolts and just ask they use these new bolts to replace the "track bar bolts" and the "LCA bolts." No reason for alarm.



Ok Thanks, still a bit freaked out but I understand more so that's progress. You all are like one gigantic Jeep Manual.




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Old 02-01-2012, 06:08 PM   #255
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Just think about it differently. If this "DW" occurs as you're falling asleep on the highway, it might wake you up and save your life. Perhaps we should start calling it "Life Wobble."
Holy crap man LOL for reals.

Well played, well played!
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:54 PM   #256
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Basic mechanics here: if you have a 3/4" hole, you need a 3/4" bolt. If the connection is not static and moves, you need a shoulder bolt and preferably a grease fitting or a permanently greased joint. Period.

Jeep engineers-clean the marketing/production management department out of your ears and start listening to WF members. Add another 20 bucks to the price and use the correct bolts.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:08 PM   #257
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Wow! I am so out of my league right now. And worried too. I dont even change a tire on my Jeep, I know I know, but that's what Road Side Assistance is for. The thought of trying to explain this to some shop is making my head spin and to make it worse is "checking to see if (some bolt) needs to be retorqued' periodically??? Good God I'm lost but dont want to ignore it either because if this DW ever happened to me, I probably wouldn't get back in.
Now we're all looking forward to your first "I changed my own oil" thread. I give you about 2 months and I'll bet you will have a decent set of basic tools in your garage, a little bit of grease under those fingernails, a profoundly expanded understanding of your Jeep's mechanics, and most importantly a sense of pride in a job well done- by you! Stuff like DW sounds scary, but is entirely and easily preventable by just about anyone who takes 5 minutes to learn. Here is a link to what all of those random bolts and parts are that we are talking about. Redirect Notice

Grab a flashlight and get under your rig for 15 minutes, you will learn a lot.

You will find that many, many, many of the things that you may want to or need to do to your Jeep are actually pretty simple and don't require complex tools or certified Chrysler training, but rather the gumption to put a wrench on something and not be afraid to break it, a little bit of patience, and a calmness that comes from knowing you have an incredibly powerful and knowledgeable family ready to help you at any hour of the day or night on this forum. The only dumb questions are the ones not asked. Welcome to the Jeep family!
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:05 AM   #258
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You are thinking about it to hard. When you have a bushing or sleeve of a bushing rotating on a axis you need a shoulder bolt for it. Jeep is notorious for not doing this to save money.
Whilst this is technically correct about a rotating sleeve of a bushing requiring a shouldered bolt, this particular usage is not a rotating sleeve. The clamping force of the bolt is such to stop the sleeve moving in the mount and would be considered a Slip Critical connection as per the previous description.

I still have the stock fully threaded bolts in mine with a 3in lift etc.. and it gets wheels as often as I can get out. Bolts are all done up to correct torque settings and are checked on a regular basis. There is no ovalling out of the track bar or control arm brackets on mine, as they are not able to move.

Yes, a 14mm bolt in a 9/16 hole is not good design practice and if you did this in your own redesign and tried to get it engineered for road use down here it would most likely not pass.

However, fully threaded bolts are not the cause of the holes or bush sleeves being chewed out, nor is it the cause of the dreaded death wobbles. Both of these are caused by the bolts simply not being tight enough. It can not be stressed enough the importance of keeping the bolts in a suspension design like this done up to the correct torque setting (this goes for all vehicles with a coil spring / trackbar suspension design, not just Jeep).

The bolts will slowly loosen off over time as the sleeve slowly crushes under the force, likewise the paint on the brackets will gradually squash also reducing the torque setting (as noted by a recent recall after Dana Spicer used a thicker paint on the late 2010 model diffs).

I am not saying dont replace them, in fact I strongly agree with replacing them with the correct sized shouldered bolts, because when they do come loose from not following a good regime of keeping them tight, this will at least stop them from chewing out the mounts until you get sick of the rattle and do them up properly again.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:20 AM   #259
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Whilst this is technically correct about a rotating sleeve of a bushing requiring a shouldered bolt, this particular usage is not a rotating sleeve. The clamping force of the bolt is such to stop the sleeve moving in the mount and would be considered a Slip Critical connection as per the previous description.

I still have the stock fully threaded bolts in mine with a 3in lift etc.. and it gets wheels as often as I can get out. Bolts are all done up to correct torque settings and are checked on a regular basis. There is no ovalling out of the track bar or control arm brackets on mine, as they are not able to move.

Yes, a 14mm bolt in a 9/16 hole is not good design practice and if you did this in your own redesign and tried to get it engineered for road use down here it would most likely not pass.

However, fully threaded bolts are not the cause of the holes or bush sleeves being chewed out, nor is it the cause of the dreaded death wobbles. Both of these are caused by the bolts simply not being tight enough. It can not be stressed enough the importance of keeping the bolts in a suspension design like this done up to the correct torque setting (this goes for all vehicles with a coil spring / trackbar suspension design, not just Jeep).

The bolts will slowly loosen off over time as the sleeve slowly crushes under the force, likewise the paint on the brackets will gradually squash also reducing the torque setting (as noted by a recent recall after Dana Spicer used a thicker paint on the late 2010 model diffs).

I am not saying dont replace them, in fact I strongly agree with replacing them with the correct sized shouldered bolts, because when they do come loose from not following a good regime of keeping them tight, this will at least stop them from chewing out the mounts until you get sick of the rattle and do them up properly again.
Have you pulled the bolts out to see that there are no marks in the holes? You'd have the first jeep I've ever heard of to not have them if so. All jeeps we replaced the stock bolts on last weekend had it and it was easily visible. The movement on the bolts especially the track bars, causes the damage even when the bolts remain torqued to spec and checked frequently. You can re check them often but you cannot prevent the movement of the track bar while driving on them. This occurs naturally for all jeeps. It will always cause the smaller non shouldered bolts to eat into the holes.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:46 AM   #260
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Whilst this is technically correct about a rotating sleeve of a bushing requiring a shouldered bolt, this particular usage is not a rotating sleeve. The clamping force of the bolt is such to stop the sleeve moving in the mount and would be considered a Slip Critical connection as per the previous description.

I still have the stock fully threaded bolts in mine with a 3in lift etc.. and it gets wheels as often as I can get out. Bolts are all done up to correct torque settings and are checked on a regular basis. There is no ovalling out of the track bar or control arm brackets on mine, as they are not able to move.

Yes, a 14mm bolt in a 9/16 hole is not good design practice and if you did this in your own redesign and tried to get it engineered for road use down here it would most likely not pass.

However, fully threaded bolts are not the cause of the holes or bush sleeves being chewed out, nor is it the cause of the dreaded death wobbles. Both of these are caused by the bolts simply not being tight enough. It can not be stressed enough the importance of keeping the bolts in a suspension design like this done up to the correct torque setting (this goes for all vehicles with a coil spring / trackbar suspension design, not just Jeep).

The bolts will slowly loosen off over time as the sleeve slowly crushes under the force, likewise the paint on the brackets will gradually squash also reducing the torque setting (as noted by a recent recall after Dana Spicer used a thicker paint on the late 2010 model diffs).

I am not saying dont replace them, in fact I strongly agree with replacing them with the correct sized shouldered bolts, because when they do come loose from not following a good regime of keeping them tight, this will at least stop them from chewing out the mounts until you get sick of the rattle and do them up properly again.


If 125-150 foot pounds of tq is going to crush a metal sleeve or total metal bushing (aftermarket track bar) then we have bigger issues at hand. Over the 12 lifts I've done I always loosen up the track bar, but after I discovered this I take out the track bar bolts and inspect them. ALL have shown signs. Even my Dad's 12' that has only seen pavement as he does not off road it.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:27 AM   #261
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Can anyone who has already replaced their bolts please provide me dimensions and thickness of the flags that were welded onto some of the nuts, and also how many of the bolts need these? As I don't have a welder, I will probably have a local fab shop weld some flags onto the new nuts.

Thanks,
Old Man
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:47 AM   #262
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Can anyone who has already replaced their bolts please provide me dimensions and thickness of the flags that were welded onto some of the nuts, and also how many of the bolts need these? As I don't have a welder, I will probably have a local fab shop weld some flags onto the new nuts.

Thanks,
Old Man
Not sure if you could see them here but I can look at mine later if need be.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/pol...es-136421.html
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:04 AM   #263
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Just ordered my kit from EAD Offroad. Luckily the guys across the street from my local watering hole are good about stuff like this. Its still too cold to be crawling around my driveway in Feb. something simple like this they'll be good if I buy them a round.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:06 AM   #264
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Just ordered my kit from EAD Offroad. Luckily the guys across the street from my local watering hole are good about stuff like this. Its still too cold to be crawling around my driveway in Feb. something simple like this they'll be good if I buy them a round.
Help them so you can learn how to do this and know your new bolts are torqued to spec.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:24 AM   #265
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Can anyone who has already replaced their bolts please provide me dimensions and thickness of the flags that were welded onto some of the nuts, and also how many of the bolts need these? As I don't have a welder, I will probably have a local fab shop weld some flags onto the new nuts.

Thanks,
Old Man
Flags are not needed, if I remember, it was only the front trackbar axle side that had a flag nut, and you can reach the nut easily with an open ended wrench or adjustable- pretty accessible- I don't know why they chose a flag nut there anyways.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:27 AM   #266
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Help them so you can learn how to do this and know your new bolts are torqued to spec.
I will do that just so I know where all the parts are, these guys are good and honest , have been using them for years to fix my vehicles.
I'm generally not afraid to turn a wrench but most of my most recent vehicles I wouldn't know where to begin, Jeeps look a little more user friendly.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:37 AM   #267
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I will do that just so I know where all the parts are, these guys are good and honest , have been using them for years to fix my vehicles.
I'm generally not afraid to turn a wrench but most of my most recent vehicles I wouldn't know where to begin, Jeeps look a little more user friendly.
I never worked on any vehicles prior to getting my Jeep and I was concerned about it too before starting but since getting my Jeep I have lifted 4x of them, changed out shocks, coils, spacers, brackets "you name it", brake line extensions, axle breather hoses, sway bars, track bars, UCAs, LCAs, new bolts, new dash for interior...the list goes on an on. I've learned so much and I'm very comfortable knowing what things are and mean at any time. This is even more important since us jeepers wheel are rigs and you can fix something should it break on the trail. There are many very detailed and well written out write ups/instructions for most of the popular lifts out there including the ones your looking at. I would strongly encourage you to read/print them out, get together with some other jeepers who have done the work before (there have to be many in your area) and do the work yourself.

If you can read/follow instructions, have basic hand tools, jack stands, and 1-3 ton floor jack, you should do this. You'll love it and the sickness for modding your rig will get even bigger.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:53 AM   #268
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I never worked on any vehicles prior to getting my Jeep and I was concerned about it too before starting...

If you can read/follow instructions, have basic hand tools, jack stands, and 1-3 ton floor jack, you should do this. You'll love it and the sickness for modding your rig will get even bigger.

Nailed it!
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:51 AM   #269
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stock bolts in track bars

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Originally Posted by SeaComms View Post
Whilst this is technically correct about a rotating sleeve of a bushing requiring a shouldered bolt, this particular usage is not a rotating sleeve. The clamping force of the bolt is such to stop the sleeve moving in the mount and would be considered a Slip Critical connection as per the previous description.

I still have the stock fully threaded bolts in mine with a 3in lift etc.. and it gets wheels as often as I can get out. Bolts are all done up to correct torque settings and are checked on a regular basis. There is no ovalling out of the track bar or control arm brackets on mine, as they are not able to move.

Yes, a 14mm bolt in a 9/16 hole is not good design practice and if you did this in your own redesign and tried to get it engineered for road use down here it would most likely not pass.

However, fully threaded bolts are not the cause of the holes or bush sleeves being chewed out, nor is it the cause of the dreaded death wobbles. Both of these are caused by the bolts simply not being tight enough. It can not be stressed enough the importance of keeping the bolts in a suspension design like this done up to the correct torque setting (this goes for all vehicles with a coil spring / trackbar suspension design, not just Jeep).

The bolts will slowly loosen off over time as the sleeve slowly crushes under the force, likewise the paint on the brackets will gradually squash also reducing the torque setting (as noted by a recent recall after Dana Spicer used a thicker paint on the late 2010 model diffs).

I am not saying dont replace them, in fact I strongly agree with replacing them with the correct sized shouldered bolts, because when they do come loose from not following a good regime of keeping them tight, this will at least stop them from chewing out the mounts until you get sick of the rattle and do them up properly again.
You have made a case for keeping your bolts tight which is hard to argue.
And I will agree it is proper to replace the stock bolts with the correct size should-type bolt... but not for the reason you state.

The main reason you would go to the shoulder in the bore is because of the bearing surface. The bearing surface of a threaded bolt is entirely too little to stand up to the pounding any suspension will generate. Eventually the surfaces will wear, mostly in the softer bushing surface. This is where your "case" breaks down.

From a lot of experience repairing Jeep Wranglers with death wobble, I KNOW that it doesn't take much wear in just a few parts which, when added together, will be the CAUSE of death wobble. Take a few minutes and read the article Death Wobble for an education about DW that you won't find everyday. It speaks specifically to your thinking about the slack in the bushing and from the elongation caused from loose bolts on the axle end of the track bar. That has been proven to cause DW in several cases.

I see people here all the time claiming they "fixed" their DW by changing or balancing tires. That is wrong, wrong, wrong!

If their steering and suspension were in good operating condition, including alignment, they would have no DW no matter how bad the tires. The tire problem can trigger the event, but it is not the cause.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:05 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by gluestick View Post
In my n=1 experience, the nylock nuts that came with the polypro kit have not budged so much as one foot pound since install 600 miles ago. I imagine very regular and stressful offroad conditions would place more force on these, but overall, they seem pretty happy to be a properly torqued piece of hardware on my Jeep and do not wish to be separated from my rig in general.
I Don't mean to nitpick here but I don't think the kit comes with "nylock" nuts, does it? from the description and the picture they are "stover nuts" Which MUST be put on in the correct way. There is a top and bottom to the stover nut.

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