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The New Black Forest "Throwback" by Webasto (Freedom Panel Replacement)

126K views 721 replies 124 participants last post by  NJGarand 
#1 ·
I've been following the Bestop Sunrider thread since before I took delivery of my JKU back in October. Since then, I've come to love having no freedom panels but like many of you, not so in love with the process of removing and re-installing. I park outside at home (covered) and at work (uncovered) so leaving them off is not an option. Especially at work if there is even the slightest hint of rain for the day. Even then, we get afternoon showers a lot in the summer.
What I didn't like about this Sunrider option was the price. I was also concerned about problems people were having with installation, rivets, weather stripping, etc. That's a lot of money to not be 100% confident in my purchase. But I was getting to the point where I felt like I was just going to have to suck it up and shell out the cash. So while researching for the lowest price I kept seeing this new freedom panel replacement top from Webasto. They branched out with a new company called BlackForest to offer a few items specifically for Jeeps, and one of those is their version of this soft top for hard tops appropriately called the Throwback.

The cheapest I could find the Bestop for was $650 shipped for the twill. Retail price for it is currently $730. The Throwback retail price is $730 as well, but they were making some claims that I found pretty interesting. The problem was it's brand new and I couldn't find any user reviews... anywhere. I spent some time talking with their customer service rep, who was more than willing to answer all my questions and provide further info. And Webasto has been around since the early 1900's. So all in all, I felt confident that it would be a solid product, and if not, they would stand behind it. I figure this might be worth the extra 80$ (or the same retail price as Bestop). So I placed my order directly with Webasto.

Here's what they are claiming on paper... I'll go through some of these in a bit.
Some are obviously the same as Bestop, but some... maybe not so much.

- One-hand open air freedom
- No assembly required, uses factory seals. 7 minute installation.
- Reusable storage box for Freedom Panels
- Rivet-less design features unique fabric folding, fabric retention and linkage technology
- Flush mounts and uses factory seals and water management.
- Impeccable fit and finish with molded header design and flush-mounted rear attachments using the Freedom Panel's original attachment points
- Unique molded header design, flush mounts and won’t damage the factory seal
- Off-road trail tested for more than three years on both the Rubicon and Moab trails
- Can be used without the hardtop.

So it arrived, and let me tell you, the box is freakin huge! I had it delivered to my office and there was no way this was fitting in my JKU because I have two car seats in the back. Even then, I don't believe it would have fit due to the length. The Throwback arrives completely assembled and with very thick padding all around. That's a good thing, just be aware. I removed it from the packaging, removed one car seat so I could drop the 60 side, and then it fit and let me close the tailgate.

Once home, the fun was about to start. The instructions are simple and pretty clear. As stated, it arrives fully assembled and the only hardware included is 4 bolts and 4 washers, and a driver bit you can use in the one that came in your Jeep toolkit. So you basically just put it in place, make one small slit in the padding on each side of the roll bars for the two rear screws, and then start bolting it up. Here's where I ran into a problem, and why this install took me an hour instead of 10 mins. The bolts could stand to be about 1/8" to 1/4" longer. In order to get the bolts to start threading into the clips, I had to apply a lot of downward pressure from above at the same time I was trying to push up and turn the bolt from below.

Here's a shot of the front left clip from above, the one attached to the rectangle hole (the other thing is part of a rubber spacer).



The instructions show the Throwback sitting on top of the Jeep, and the only thing they specify is to install the front screws first, then the rear screws, and then finally the big mushroom knobs that screw into the sound bar. So I was pushing down on the fabric top. This worked ok for the front screws and took just a few minutes and some strength. The rear screws on the other hand.... OMG. WAY too short. And I was worried I was going to damage the top. FINALLY it dawned on me... why not open the top? So I flipped it back and could see what I was working with, like in that pic above. I grabbed a small block of wood that would let me apply heavy downward pressure without putting a hole in the palm of my hand. Doing this with pretty much all my weight on my left hand, while I threaded the bolt in from below with my right hand finally worked. I was able to duplicate the process on the other rear bolt pretty quickly. Then I was finally able to screw in the big mushroom knobs which require just a slight pull down from inside the jeep. So now all bolts (4 new ones + the 2 knobs) were in and I was able to fold the top back down and try latching the front, which worked perfectly. The only other thing I felt was missing from the instructions is some mention of torque on the bolts. So I just used common sense and tried to make sure they were secure, but not over tight.

So how is it once installed?

FITMENT: Seems like it fits really well. Overall fitment and seams look even all the way around.
The front latches area easy to engage/release, yet you can really feel the tension.
It feels like its giving the top a good stretch when closing... nice and tight.

MATERIALS: Top notch as far as I can tell so far. The fabric is a heavy duty twill, black on both sides. Exteriors | Twillfast® RPC | Convertible Topping
All plastics look and feel OEM quality.

NOISE: I've only used it for a day so far so I'll have to update this later. When open, I've had it up to 60mph and it's as quiet as just removing the freedom panels. Once in a while, depending on the direction of the wind, I heard a slight flap here and there. I have not had a chance yet to take it on the freeway closed or open. I know this is important so again, I'll update.

LEAK FREE?: Again, I don't know yet. It uses the factory seals and water management so I have high hopes that water will not be an issue.

OPENING/CLOSING: It's a cinch. Unclip, "throw back", and you are on your way. When closing, just reach up/behind and pull it forward and attach the clips.
Literally a 5-10 second maneuver. SO MUCH BETTER THAN BEFORE! :)

UPDATE 1/22/17: Wind noise on the freeway at 70-80mph with the Throwback in the closed position is noisier than the freedom panels, which is expected, and not by a whole lot. It's just more wind noise. NO BUFFETING. In the open position, I am actually quite surprised at how little movement there is of the fabric. To me, it's no noisier than without it.
Here is a vid that attempts to show the noise while on the freeway in heavy, but moving traffic at 70-80 mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEhFjYym2cE


Here's some more pics.
I'm not familiar with the Bestop so I'll let those of you that own one make any comparisons of the design details.
I do know that the Throwback doesn't have the plastic trim running down the side and no logo.






















So I hope this sheds some light on this brand new product and competition for Bestop.
Nice to have more than once choice out there.
To recap, the only thing I think needs work is either slightly longer screws, or amend the instructions to open the top and apply pressure from above.
This would have seriously made it a 10-15 minute install rather than an hour.
And give us some idea of torque for the screws.
Other than that, I am VERY happy with my purchase so far.

I'll update as I get more use out of it in various situations.
Oh, and as far as the "Reusable Storage Box" goes.... HA! As I said, the box is freakin huge.
No way, Jose. You are much better off just using the storage bag that came with your Jeep, and then shove them in the attic, basement or even the back of a closet.
Putting them in that box, side by side... I wouldn't be able to store it anywhere in my house.

Happy Jeepin! :)
 
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#7 ·
Thanks for the write up. Similar story as I have been talking with Wabesto about the Throwback and I pulled the trigger last week, mine should be here on Friday. Looking forward to getting it installed but the wether still sucks so it might need to wait a few weeks.


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#10 ·
LOL, awesome. Follow my tips and it should go on without much trouble.
Post back here and let us know how it goes and how quickly you get it installed. :)

I saw these on display at Sema this year.

I was absolutely enthralled by it. The guy invited me up into the display model where we stood on the seats and he showed me how it attached, how it folded back, and the fact that it utilized the OEM seals the proper way (he made sure I understood it sat down on top of the seals instead of slid forward over them).

The. We turned around and sat down and he showed me just how simple (one handed) it was to unlatch, open, close, and latch the top.

I was in love with it and I am glad to see it FINALLY came to market...
Yeah, the whole thing just lays right on top and gets bolted on.
Should make a really good seal. Notice the beefy frame construction in the first photo and last two.
And with the way it clamps down in front, I don't think there will be any leaks there, either. :)
 
#9 ·
I saw these on display at Sema this year.

I was absolutely enthralled by it. The guy invited me up into the display model where we stood on the seats and he showed me how it attached, how it folded back, and the fact that it utilized the OEM seals the proper way (he made sure I understood it sat down on top of the seals instead of slid forward over them).

The. We turned around and sat down and he showed me just how simple (one handed) it was to unlatch, open, close, and latch the top.

I was in love with it and I am glad to see it FINALLY came to market...
 
#11 ·
Thank you for the awesome review. Look forward to hearing more about your experience with rain and freeway speeds as time goes by. Have a couple other things ahead of this, but really like the concept, and not sold on the Bestop.
 
#14 ·
Great job on the review and the product seems useful BUT at that price it just isn't justifiable.
 
#15 ·
Thanks!
And that's exactly why it took me so long to purchase something.
You can get a full soft top in twill for around $1200.
I went back and forth, and as much as I'd like a full soft top, I just don't see myself putting it fully down that often with all the unzipping and stuff I'd have to do. And then I'd have the same problem where I'd drive the 6 miles to my office and not want to have to deal with putting it all back together. And then do it all again for the ride home.
I also use the tailgate a lot, and I prefer how easy it is to fully open it without having to deal with that rear window. And I'm not a fan of the fastback look due to looks and loss of cargo space so I'm limited to OEM for the most part.
I could just flip back the front portion like this Throwback, but then I'd lose the quietness of the hard top. The struggle is real! :D

Now if my Jeep was garaged both at home and office, that might have been a different story.
But for me, this seemed like the best option, and it is almost $400 less expensive.

BTW, the final straw on deciding to purchase something was when I left the freedom panels off and doors unlocked (cause why bother at that point) in my office parking lot, and two :censored: guys had the balls to drive in, park right next to it, and start rifling through. Took 10 bucks in cash out of the console and my container of gum from the cupholder. :rant: Now when I arrive in the morning it's just seconds to close and lock it up.
 
#17 ·
Never heard of it!
Thanks for the review. For us that have both tops, how hard would it be to remove this when I want the soft top on the Jeep and then reinstall it for hard top use? 7 minutes?!?!
 
#18 ·
Technically, yes... it would be really really quick, especially the UNINSTALL.
First remove the two big mushroom knobs which takes what... 30 seconds total? Then remove the 4 bolts which shouldn't take more than 30 seconds each. Then just lift it off. Boom. Done.

Looks like they will be sending me some longer screws, which IMO will result in the super quick install they advertise.
I'll report back. Maybe with a quick video.
 
#20 ·
So while researching for the lowest price I kept seeing this new freedom panel replacement top from Webasto. They branched out with a new company called BlackForest to offer a few items specifically for Jeeps, and one of those is their version of this soft top for hard tops appropriately called the Throwback.
Nice write-up. I look forward to the high-speed :)D) noise testing.

Clearance questions:

  • What is the maximum height above the roof reached during opening/closing? A concern would be whether or not this could be opened or closed while the vehicle is in various covered locations.
  • What is the maximum height above the roof when open?
  • Does the opened configuration result in a rigid or soft high ridge? i.e. Would a slight clearance impact to the opened top be a soft hit, or would it break something?
I would try to investigate some of this for myself, but my browser is currently saying the company's website is a broken mess.
 
#21 ·
In it's open position, the highest point of the Throwback sits about 7" above the roof.

It's highest point during opening/closing is a bit hard to measure, but appears to be around 18" or so taller than the roof.

In it's fully opened position, it's fully open. There is basically no flex or give at this point. So if you hit it, you may damage it. Unless the hit is just ever so slight and just rubs it.
I'd be very careful if you are entering a low parking garage or something, in which case you may want to reach back and drop it down as you enter.
 
#22 ·
Just posted an update in the first post about the noise at fwy speeds, with video.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Webasto! Haven't ever heard that name outside the early Porsche 911 and 356 community. Because those are air-cooled cars they didn't do a good job of heating the interior (water-cooled cars use the super hot coolant circulating through the heater core to create hot air to blow in the pax compartment.) So an option for the early Porsches was a Webasto gas heater in the trunk. Yep, a gas heater with an exhaust pipe that you could run on very cold days to supplement the cabin heat.



 
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#24 ·
Thanks for doing the review. Question for you, when opening and closing do you have move the visors to the side or just flip them down?
 
#26 ·
Just unclip so they can drop down a little.
Just like with the freedom panels.
No need to swing them to the side.
 
#25 ·
This looks great! One of my Freedom panels was damaged before I got it, and I've been reluctant to replace it since it "kind of" works still, and the $400+ was better spent on other stuff I "needed". However, I really like this idea. I'm interested to hear your feedback down the road.
 
#28 ·
#30 ·
Very cool. I had the Bestop Sunrider and experienced a lot of the problems other people were having. I had a screw strip out. My main problem was that it was extremely noisy at highway speeds. I could never get the front corners to sit down flush with the roof. I noticed in the OP's pictures that it looks like the corners fit better. I sent my Bestop back to Amazon. I really wanted to like it but just couldn't tolerate all of the noise.
 
#31 ·
Great review!
I would love to get my hands on one for the spring season when I don't want to completely switch over to soft top just yet. Like right now, we have an unseasonably warm winter, drives back home after work are mid 60's, but still expect to be back into the 30's...

Webasto is a great company and makes OEM sun roofs (I think)
 
#33 ·
This is exactly why I ordered one. I'm an in Seattle and I need the hard top on for the rainy winter months. in the spring is still rains almost every day but when the sun does come out you want to be able to open the top and freedom panels just don't work.. cause I might go to work on a sunny morning and drive home in the rain. So these new "soft top sunroofs) are perfect. Once summer is in full swing I will switch over to my full soft top... then back to the "throwback" in the Fall. I really like the idea of the Webasto basically being as easy to put on as the Freedom panels... something I could decide to do in the morning before heading to work if needed.
 
#34 ·
UPDATE 2/27/17

No rain yet, but I did soak the top pretty good while washing the jeep yesterday and no leaks. When opening the doors, they did seem to drip water more than with the freedom panels. I guess just something to be aware of if stepping out after driving in the rain. And this could just be my imagination, but I don't remember the door plastics/armrest and threshold getting a bit wet when opening the door after a wash previously. <shrugs>

The only thing I'm finding a little annoying right now, is some rattle noises from the big metal latches while driving over bumps when the top is open.
What's nice is they have a velcro dot on them to help keep them secured, which seems to work. But the latch mechanism itself rattles. No way to prevent that unless they can get rid of the play between the two moving parts. Maybe add some rubber bushings or something.
This is minor, as there is plenty of wind noise anyway and you can just turn the stereo up, and it's just occasional when riding on the road. But I would prefer it to be rattle free and I think it should be avoidable with a minor design tweak.
 
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