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Old 08-26-2011, 09:25 AM   #1
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Throttle Body Upgrade

I put the Viper Throttle Body on this morning - Very nice! While difficult to describe, the best of saying it is that the throttle response is much smoother than with the stock throttle body. Coupled with the K&N Air filter (in the stock box) it seems that I have a good combination. Thanks to Tom and Mike for the suggestions on this! The install is really easy - except for the bolt in the lower right corner - I had to 'finger-feel' the torque (65 in/lbs) for this one with a wrench, although I suppose it could be gotten to by removing the upper hose and a couple of other parts... All in all, a very satisfying result. One caveat - I couldn't use the stock connection. As suggested, I got a 3-3 coupler from Spectre to make the connection with.

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Old 08-26-2011, 09:32 AM   #2
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Yep. I concur that this is a good upgrade.

For those interested, here's my thread on the same topic, which has some pictures and so on.

Do let us know if you start throwing codes. That seems to be the complaint that sometimes comes up with this, though there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to when it happens. I've never thrown any.

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Old 08-26-2011, 09:37 AM   #3
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Whoa, don't blame me. I do not think the K&N filter is a good thing. It allows too many fine particles into the engine. As far as throttle response, I'm not convinced of that since you have a DBW system.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:40 AM   #4
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What do you mean by "smoother"?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:02 AM   #5
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Where did you buy it from ?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:03 AM   #6
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I have one that i took off my 10 if anyone is interested.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
As far as throttle response, I'm not convinced of that since you have a DBW system.
It is indeed somehow . . . different.

My guess--pure speculation--is that because the DBW tells the throttle how far to open, you're simply getting more air in with the bigger TB. For example, let's say the DBW tells the TB to open 30% in a particular instance. The gap created by a Viper TB when it's open 30% will be bigger with the gap created by a stock TB when it's open 30%.

So long as the computer doesn't "know" that I've made the change, this will continue. I suppose it could be true that the computer somehow figures out what's going on and then compensates for it. Don't know.

Incidentally, this could also explain why some folks seem to throw codes when they're using various performance chips along with the Viper TB, particularly at varying altitudes. For example, the chip could be making their engine run more lean, which combined with the Viper TB yields more oxygen than your engine's sensors will tolerate as within "normal" range. So they throw codes. That, at least, is how some of the speculation goes over on JK-F.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66
Whoa, don't blame me. I do not think the K&N filter is a good thing. It allows too many fine particles into the engine. As far as throttle response, I'm not convinced of that since you have a DBW system.
Assumptions here are the same.

Edit: Mike, you covered it
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:40 AM   #9
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Mike - so far, it's behaving very well. I've run it at low and mid rpm's (up to about 3k), but haven't wound it up (I usually don't anyway, but may give it a go to see what happens upwards of 4k). I'll update if a code shows up...

Tom - In looking at the filter (I've cleaned it and the box thoroughly twice since installation) I haven't noticed anything that might lead me to think that I was letting anything in that might cause trouble down the road - Have you noticed definite problems with this filter?

kjeeper - that's the problem; it's difficult to describe the difference. It's not like more horsepower, but a more balanced feel to the acceleration. With the stock TB there seemed to be more of an uneven feel when accelerating and cruising at speed, where the new TB seems a bit more responsive and cruises more steadily - as though the increase in air precludes the motor from feeling O2-deficient. I still consider myself a n00b at this, so it's difficult to put an adequate description on it.

Morten - I bought it from Mopar Superstore (it was on sale for $128).

- I'm ignorant enough to know that I can't say I know what 'DBW' means...
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Old 08-27-2011, 01:14 AM   #10
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Well does the poweraid spacer do basically the same ... Are people throwing codes with that ? Witch is better ?
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Probo View Post
Well does the poweraid spacer do basically the same ... Are people throwing codes with that ? Witch is better ?
TBS is totally worthless.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trennmaschine
Mike - so far, it's behaving very well. I've run it at low and mid rpm's (up to about 3k), but haven't wound it up (I usually don't anyway, but may give it a go to see what happens upwards of 4k). I'll update if a code shows up...

Tom - In looking at the filter (I've cleaned it and the box thoroughly twice since installation) I haven't noticed anything that might lead me to think that I was letting anything in that might cause trouble down the road - Have you noticed definite problems with this filter?

kjeeper - that's the problem; it's difficult to describe the difference. It's not like more horsepower, but a more balanced feel to the acceleration. With the stock TB there seemed to be more of an uneven feel when accelerating and cruising at speed, where the new TB seems a bit more responsive and cruises more steadily - as though the increase in air precludes the motor from feeling O2-deficient. I still consider myself a n00b at this, so it's difficult to put an adequate description on it.

Morten - I bought it from Mopar Superstore (it was on sale for $128).

- I'm ignorant enough to know that I can't say I know what 'DBW' means...
Drive by wire.

The one thing I notice about this engine- unless your pinning it, it seems like it does
"choke for air" like you described. The difference is surely felt between a cool morning and when it's humid out later in the day, the engine just runs better. if it's quicker, I don't know-but feels it. I opened the hood the other day and could not believe how hot it was. My Tj's engine compartment was never that hot. I've been considering a CAI for awhile because I like the way the engine feels "when cooler, just feels more responsive and"smoother" Going to look into this upgrade also. Thanks for the advice

This topic always causes a lot of debate-I never understood why
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trennmaschine View Post
Tom - In looking at the filter (I've cleaned it and the box thoroughly twice since installation) I haven't noticed anything that might lead me to think that I was letting anything in that might cause trouble down the road - Have you noticed definite problems with this filter?
The issues are well documented. I ran one very briefly. I didn't do it for any type of "performance"(nor did I experience any) other than thinking it would be cost effective. Then I read about duest and other fine particles that bypass this filter. Since I wheel in dusty and sandy environments, I ditched it for a traditional filter.
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Old 08-27-2011, 09:24 AM   #14
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Years ago my primo mechanic shop prevailed upon me to "try" their new wonder of the month, a TBS to put on my 94 Z71 Chev 350 pick up. Or at least that's what I thought they were doing. It was a little spacer plate about 1" or so high, that fit between intake manifold and the carb.

They guaranteed 'better' or they'd remove it at their cost.

Drove it 30 days. Gave me all sorts of decreased performance: less MPG, more shifting on hills ( having to climb paved mountain passes) in lower gears, and a generalized sensation of malaise.

They replaced the stock configuration no charge.

Odd experiment.
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Old 08-27-2011, 11:34 AM   #15
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It's up & down with TBS. It works for some vehicles & not for others. So, all in all, it's a trial & error type of deal. Could work wonders on your honda & sucks for the mustang.

But sometimes, you need additional upgrades on your vehicle for the TBS to work for it. Just like if you wanted to put a lot bigger pipes on your car. You can't just do that. You'll then have to upgrade the pistons, cam, crank, intake, etc.
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Old 08-27-2011, 02:42 PM   #16
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My understanding is that a TBS is only useful if you have a carbuerated engine. Otherwise, they serve no purpose.
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
The issues are well documented. I ran one very briefly. I didn't do it for any type of "performance"(nor did I experience any) other than thinking it would be cost effective. Then I read about duest and other fine particles that bypass this filter. Since I wheel in dusty and sandy environments, I ditched it for a traditional filter.
Tom - good info to have! I didn't get the filter for performance reasons, either. It was a matter of economics. 5 or 6 good air filter changes and it pays for itself. On looking into this a bit, it seems that the consensus is that as long as the filter is cleaned and re-oiled at least twice per year, there shouldn't be a problem with additional particulates getting in. As a rule, I have the air filter cleaned and re-oiled at each oil change (approx. every 5k miles or after a long [4+ hour] drive). It's an interesting subject to look into, since the air filter would seem to be the starting point for introducing matter into the engine that could adversely affect it. Do you think that being diligent about keeping the filter maintained may make a difference?
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:57 PM   #18
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My personal decision was that the nominal savings on buying a new filter evey 12k miles was not worth the risk of engine damage.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:50 PM   #19
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When I was looking at filters this was aFe's claim for each filter type. Oiled reusable filters were around 98% efficient in filtration. Dry reusuable filters were around 99.2% and paper OEM replacement filters were around 99.8%. So they listed the filters as:

Oiled filter reusable...........Best air flow.........Good filtration
Dry oil-free reusable..........Better air flow.......Better filtration
Paper OEM filter................Good air flow........Best filtration

I ended up trying the Dry reusable filter. We will see.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:55 PM   #20
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:59 PM   #21
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i thought K+N recommends cleaning and re-oiling every 20,000 miles. So 2x a year = 40,000 miles a year. You might want to re-read their recommendations. I could be wrong though. Its been awhile since i had one
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:18 PM   #22
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I will never use another K&N air filter. I have seen way too many cars with piles of dirt downstream of them. An oiled foam filter is much better. I'll be getting the Amsoil dry reusable once it's available. Clean it with a Shop Vac and has a nice warranty.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:35 PM   #23
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What is the point of an aftermarket "drop in filter"?
Provide better filtration, MPG's, etc.?
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kjeeper10
What is the point of an aftermarket "drop in filter"?
Provide better filtration, MPG's, etc.?
These days there isn't much difference in the flow. The stock stuff is much better than it was 10-20 years ago. I guess since the companies say you can gain 20 hp with them people jump on them. The only reason I'm getting the filter I mentioned above is that it's cheaper over the long haul than getting a new paper filter all the time.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415

These days there isn't much difference in the flow. The stock stuff is much better than it was 10-20 years ago. I guess since the companies say you can gain 20 hp with them people jump on them. The only reason I'm getting the filter I mentioned above is that it's cheaper over the long haul than getting a new paper filter all the time.
Gotcha
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trennmaschine View Post
I put the Viper Throttle Body on this morning - Very nice! While difficult to describe, the best of saying it is that the throttle response is much smoother than with the stock throttle body. Coupled with the K&N Air filter (in the stock box) it seems that I have a good combination. Thanks to Tom and Mike for the suggestions on this! The install is really easy - except for the bolt in the lower right corner - I had to 'finger-feel' the torque (65 in/lbs) for this one with a wrench, although I suppose it could be gotten to by removing the upper hose and a couple of other parts... All in all, a very satisfying result. One caveat - I couldn't use the stock connection. As suggested, I got a 3-3 coupler from Spectre to make the connection with.

Now that you've had this mod in your Jeep for over a month, how is it performing?
Any issues come up?
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:57 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by wrangler0

Now that you've had this mod in your Jeep for over a month, how is it performing?
Any issues come up?
Sorry to hijack but I reread the thread again.
Since then I have bought a used banks ram air from a guy on CL for a $100. I figured I would try a CAI and find out for my self if there was any difference. Also-for $100 I would not be losing much.
After reading the thread again and the op said "feels different, smoother, etc" I don't have the viper tb but I see where he's coming from using the Banks. Acceleration is the same, doesn't feel much different in 1st and 2nd gear getting up to speed. BUT-- merging on the highway getting the rpms up to 3000-4000 it feels a lot better. Doesn't feel like the engine is starving for air as much and there is a little more "pull"
I would think the VTB would be a great addition to a CAI. just my .02--like anybody cares
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:22 PM   #28
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Now that you've had this mod in your Jeep for over a month, how is it performing?
Any issues come up?
Not a one... Running smoothly with no codes and no hiccups...

Quote:
BUT-- merging on the highway getting the rpms up to 3000-4000 it feels a lot better. Doesn't feel like the engine is starving for air as much and there is a little more "pull"
That's why it was difficult for me to describe - but , yes - after 3k rpms it does seem to behave differently.
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by trennmaschine
Not a one... Running smoothly with no codes and no hiccups...

That's why it was difficult for me to describe - but , yes - after 3k rpms it does seem to behave differently.
Thats when the engine requires more air so I see why it would help. Do you have a CAI also?
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by trennmaschine View Post
Not a one... Running smoothly with no codes and no hiccups...


That's why it was difficult for me to describe - but , yes - after 3k rpms it does seem to behave differently.
Great to hear, thanks!!

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