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Old 10-05-2011, 08:23 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by nycdude777 View Post
This is becoming a waste of time, really
Is becoming? Try has been from post #1 bub.

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Old 10-05-2011, 08:43 PM   #62
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Flaw-

My corroding door hinges

Hadim on my Yj and my Tj and now my Jk.

What's the dealio?

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Old 10-05-2011, 09:28 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by nycdude777 View Post
Its superiority is due to the fact that its suspension is NOT independent like on most cars. But if the axle was not shifting side to side you would also have better highway handling, its just physics. I am not making this up.
that's exactly what I was saying, the issue people have is that they aren't willing to give up a system that works well off road in order to gain better handling on the street. If they were, they would have bought an IFS truck to wheel in...

For $30K, you can get a vehicle with more power, more speed, better handling, MUCH better gas mileage, carpet that's actually attached, a roof that's insulated, sound proofing, a much nicer interior, and on and on and on. There's a whole slew of amenities and features in a modern $30K car that you don't get in a wrangler... You can call all of that a flaw, but the truth is that you chose a jeep for a reason, and whatever the reason, it was (hopefully) worth what you didn't get, and most folks, having made that decision, would call it a compromise and not a flaw...
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:53 PM   #64
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nycdude777- It's not a design flaw at all - it's functioning 100% completely correct according to the design!

Now in your opinion itís a flawed design - that's debatable...
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:57 PM   #65
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It is no more a design flaw then any other item you have to replace with a lift. The sway bar links are not adjustable from the factory and has to be replaced with a lift. So are shocks and brake line. The track bar is set just right for factory settings. If you change factory setting with a lift, then you need to adjust the other parts to match with either extension brackets or buy adjustable links and track bars.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:05 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by rics1997
It is no more a design flaw then any other item you have to replace with a lift. The sway bar links are not adjustable from the factory and has to be replaced with a lift. So are shocks and brake line. The track bar is set just right for factory settings. If you change factory setting with a lift, then you need to adjust the other parts to match with either extension brackets or buy adjustable links and track bars.
While your point is valid. He is pointing out that on any suspenion with a track bar the axle moves side to side from one end of the travel to the other.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 2012-Rubicon View Post
While your point is valid. He is pointing out that on any suspenion with a track bar the axle moves side to side from one end of the travel to the other.

Well he specifically mentioned a lift compounding the problem in his original post. As far as normal driving condition, worrying about the track bar shifting the axle during normal driving is like worrying about toe on a independent suspension when the vehicle rises and lowers over driving conditions.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:28 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 2012-Rubicon View Post
...He is pointing out that on any suspenion with a track bar the axle moves side to side from one end of the travel to the other.
Which is exactly what it's designed to do. Some may not like it, but that's what it is supposed to do.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:33 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by joe002
Which is exactly what it's designed to do. Some may not like it, but that's what it is supposed to do.
Yup Yup simple geometry
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:51 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by nycdude777 View Post
This is becoming a waste of time, really
This was a waste of time from the beginning and guess who started this worthless post?

If you could put any front suspension you wanted under the Wrangler what would it be? Please tell us so we can identify all the design flaws it has.

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Is becoming? Try has been from post #1 bub.
Absolutely!
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:06 AM   #71
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He tore up his driveline because he does not know how to drive, http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/um-...at-116174.html and now he's an expert on suspensions?
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:04 PM   #72
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Ahh, this is so much fun. Simple geometry. I haven't measured, but let's talk geometry. Let's say the track bar is 24" long, and is mounted to the axle such that the angle between the axle centerline and the track bar is 15 degrees. A point directly below the upper mounting point is 6.2 inches below the mounting point. That point is 23.18" from the lower point, measured along the axle center line. Now, we compress the suspension 4 inches. The point directly beneath the upper mounting point is now 23.88" from the lower mounting point, and the front end of your Wrangler has been violently jerked 0.7" one way or the other, depending on whether you are talking about the axle or the body. Not bad for a 4-inch compression.
Aside from that, has anyone seen what the tire rod ends do when you compress the suspension?
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:08 PM   #73
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He tore up his driveline because he does not know how to drive, http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/um-...at-116174.html and now he's an expert on suspensions?
I'm surprised he isn't blaming that on this horrible trackbar design.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:08 PM   #74
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He tore up his driveline because he does not know how to drive, http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/um-...at-116174.html and now he's an expert on suspensions?
Oh wow, and you do? That's great!
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:11 PM   #75
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:34 PM   #76
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He tore up his driveline because he does not know how to drive, http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/um-...at-116174.html and now he's an expert on suspensions?
He is correct on how the track bar works. He is simply mistaken on what is and is not a "design flaw". The track bar is operating as designed...there is no flaw there. Is it an ideal design? Depends on your criteria...but as I said earlier, EVERYTHING on an automobile is a compromise of some form or another...even for the ultra exotics. He's shocked that his suspension operates in this way, yet not shocked that the rise of one tire tilts the other on end...he's not shocked that his brakes convert his kinetic energy into waste heat...not shocked that his engine is only about 30-40% efficient...not shocked that his Jeep sports a God-awful 0.5+ coefficient of drag (all in the name of style by the way)...

None of these are "design flaws". They operate as intended. They are certainly not ideal...but everything is a compromise of some form or another.

A true design flaw would be the use of rectangular windows on a pressurized airliner. A true design flaw would be the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. These did not operate as intended and experienced catastrophic failures as a result. And THAT is what we are trying to get through...
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Old 10-06-2011, 03:16 PM   #77
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Things are WAYYYY to serious around here. Give the guy a break, he's entitled to his opinion. By the way, a serious design flaw is resulting in more than my share of splattered bugs being deposited on my windscreen. The windscreen on a Wrangler is too vertical! What the hell are they thinking?
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:28 PM   #78
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This is becoming a waste of time, really
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Originally Posted by lowdutch View Post
Things are WAYYYY to serious around here. Give the guy a break, he's entitled to his opinion. By the way, a serious design flaw is resulting in more than my share of splattered bugs being deposited on my windscreen. The windscreen on a Wrangler is too vertical! What the hell are they thinking?
Actually if you really look at the jk wrangler it is very aerodynamic in a lot of respects. The grill has a lot of slope to it as does the windshield. Give them a good side view looksie and you will be surprised. And the front fenders have a aero look as well. It's not a square brick like one would think.
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Old 10-07-2011, 12:28 AM   #79
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Any engineer who has designed anything for any length of time knows that there are, and must be reasonable limitations to the performance which can be expected from the design. Everything is designed to some price point, and it is the engineer's job to provide economical solutions.

In a former life I was a guru of roadside design - all the stuff you crash into when you exit the roadway in your jeep. If an 18 wheeler loses control and strikes a typical traffic barrier or crash cushion, do you suppose it can be contained and redirected by that barrier? Hell no. The passenger car or light pickup truck is designed for, because statistically, the most "bang for the buck" can be obtained by addressing this larger percentage of vehicles. Sorry truckers, but we can't economically contain a 105,000 lb vehicle. Is this a design flaw? Again, Hell no. But the barrier, widget, (substitute any other item here) is designed to a standard of performance. If it does not perform to that standard, then we would refer to it as a design flaw. If the final product performs according to the standard, even though you'd like it to do something else, well, it seems you obviously weren't part of the design team, are not part of any governing body or standards establishing entity, and are left, well, making a lot of noise that few want to pay much attention to.

Any other engineers here that want to otherwise define a "design flaw" - have at it...

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