Update on ticking Pentastar..new head... - Page 104 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK General Discussion Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 10-24-2012, 10:50 AM   #3091
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 123
Glad I waited for the cel to come on then. I took mine in today. (I also got the squeaky seat.) I wonder if their 45000 hours of testing were done with ethanol? Can't really blame that in the current climate can they?

Rabblerouser is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 10:58 AM   #3092
Jeeper
 
2012unlimruby17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabblerouser View Post
Glad I waited for the cel to come on then. I took mine in today. (I also got the squeaky seat.) I wonder if their 45000 hours of testing were done with ethanol? Can't really blame that in the current climate can they?
What were your symptoms/sounds? And what was your mileage? I posted a video of mine a few pages back. Check it out

2012unlimruby17 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 11:03 AM   #3093
Newb
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7
A design flaw would effect over 100,000 vehicles in the jeep family alone. Plus any chargers, challengers, small trucks, and so on they put the motor in. Potentially a half million vehicles. The # of reported issues are much smaller than that. I suspect it's more of a manufacturing or materials issue.
Jaystroxx is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 11:18 AM   #3094
Jeeper
 
orygun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwood56 View Post
Does anyone know the real difference between the AB and AC rev. Is it really an Engineering design change? I have a 13 Jk, BD 08/06/12 so I'm guessing, hoping I have AB. Now the AC is the new part. I was talking to my SM at my dealer. He said the rev change could be a caused by using new vendor or ANY spec change on the head and does no mean for certain that its a total redesign. My point is I waited for the 13's to come out because of this issue. Now one month into production the rev. Changes. Are there any confirmed failures of the AB? Lastly have 800 miles and have been using Hess 87 oct. I just switched to Mobil 87 oct hoping its a better quality fuel. Has anyone asked what fuel plays into this whole mess?
I'm in the same boat as you. I have a 2012 JKR with a July 10 engine build date, and a Jeep build date of July 19. I *think* I have an AB head, but don't know for sure thanks to the lack of clarity from Chrysler. Nobody seems to know the difference between any of the revisions. I read that in Chrysler's rush to get the AB head into production, some cam journals were bored wrong. (Not comfirmed of course.) I'm hoping the AC revision was to clearly indentify heads that were manufactured without the possible cam journal problem. I supervise in one of the largest production machine shops in the northwest. We see rev changes on a daily basis. They can be from a design change, or from something as minor as putting a different label on a part. BTW, I switched to a mid-range gas. When I took my Wrangler in to have the transmission listened to, the mechanic said he could hear it pinging. I had been putting regular gas in as Chrysler recommended.
orygun is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 11:45 AM   #3095
Jeeper
 
aargh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 16
Was repaired during the first week of August. I assume that I received the latest parts, it would really suck if I didn't. After the crap I've been through on this and the possibility it is happening again, I don't understand why I am not angry, just disappointed. I notice that there are many respondents like me are also happy just to get it repaired instead of being fired up on this. When the smoke clears on this and the ticking comes to an end, I think we should ban together and hire an attorney who owns a Wrangler!
aargh is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 01:14 PM   #3096
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
SilverSport's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,799
Send a message via Yahoo to SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0nx View Post
ROFL. Yeahp. Glad someone else can read between the lines too. There's a definite problem with the design and it will get most if not all of us at some point. Not really bothering me but sweeping the issue under the carpet and telling people to stop spreading hysteria isn't helping anything either when it's pretty clear to anyone capable of logic at this point that the problem goes well beyond a small run of heads installed on a select few vehicles.
Your hysteria doesn't help anyone looking for facts or solid info, which you failed to provide.
__________________
"Own a Jeep and own a piece of history."

"The Hunter is not concerned with the opinion of the Wolf."
SilverSport is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 01:22 PM   #3097
Jeeper
 
mackdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tropical Nova Scotia
Posts: 30,466
Love Hysteria! Great Def Leppard album
__________________


-----Donnie---


Do not argue with and idiot......he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience!
mackdj1 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 01:57 PM   #3098
Jeeper
 
Strokerswild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: MN
Posts: 1,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofboxster View Post
Detonation can be a byproduct of localized heat issue at cylinder #2. Many reports of burnt exhaust valve on #2, and low compression as a result. Let's face it race fans this is a heat issue.

Leaky exhaust valve will expose valve guide to spent exhaust. Lubricated contact surfaces can fail where excessive heat is causing lubrication to fail.

Seems to me Chrysler is going out of it's way to deny design flaw and it's broader more costly implication.

Integtated exhaust manifold? I can't see how that's a good idea. A discreet manifold is a heat sink, seperate and insulated from head. Spent gas goes from each individual exhaust valve directily into a seperate heat sinking componant. Integrated design keeps spent gas in head longer, and heat is not insulated from head structure by sinking componant.

Combined with added back pressure on the left side due to loop d loop design? If so localized heat build should have been caught in design, and Chrysler dropped the ball on this one.

On a more positive note I don't see why the head couldn't be redesigned to have greater heat sinking by adding wall thickness and improving flow where possible.
+1

Especially the bold, which I was getting at. Detonation can be caused by heat, but the detonation itself is not the cause of the valve/guide failures. Deto may cause heat, but there doesn't seem to be overwhelming evidence that there are engine overheating (or fuel/timing) issues as a whole with the 3.6.

Since it's seemingly isolated to cylinder #2, there must be a thin area in the casting or certain machining of the head creates one. Or there's a heat riser passage in the same area. I'd love to take a bandsaw to a "bad" head....
__________________
Gone but not forgotten:
'98 TJ SE - '99 TJ Sahara - '12 JK Arctic
'13 JK Sahara...too many other toys...

I Jeep, therefore I am.
Strokerswild is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 02:09 PM   #3099
Jeeper
 
Blastek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by aargh View Post
Was repaired during the first week of August. I assume that I received the latest parts, it would really suck if I didn't. After the crap I've been through on this and the possibility it is happening again, I don't understand why I am not angry, just disappointed. I notice that there are many respondents like me are also happy just to get it repaired instead of being fired up on this. When the smoke clears on this and the ticking comes to an end, I think we should ban together and hire an attorney who owns a Wrangler!
please check your repair order and tell us the head part number. since you had it reparied in early august you probably got the part ending in AB. I saw another person who had it done mid august and got an AB part. The first reported AC was late august.
__________________
2012 Deep Cherry Red JKU Sport S - Tickastar, 6 speed, 3.73, Dual Tops
Blastek is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 02:29 PM   #3100
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
SilverSport's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,799
Send a message via Yahoo to SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strokerswild View Post
+1

Especially the bold, which I was getting at. Detonation can be caused by heat, but the detonation itself is not the cause of the valve/guide failures. Deto may cause heat, but there doesn't seem to be overwhelming evidence that there are engine overheating (or fuel/timing) issues as a whole with the 3.6.

Since it's seemingly isolated to cylinder #2, there must be a thin area in the casting or certain machining of the head creates one. Or there's a heat riser passage in the same area. I'd love to take a bandsaw to a "bad" head....
Things that make you go........Hmmm.
__________________
"Own a Jeep and own a piece of history."

"The Hunter is not concerned with the opinion of the Wolf."
SilverSport is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 02:40 PM   #3101
Jeeper
 
Strokerswild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: MN
Posts: 1,280
Or, things that make you go "I wish I had kept my '04 F150 that gave me over eight years of absolutely trouble-free use"....

__________________
Gone but not forgotten:
'98 TJ SE - '99 TJ Sahara - '12 JK Arctic
'13 JK Sahara...too many other toys...

I Jeep, therefore I am.
Strokerswild is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 02:42 PM   #3102
Jeeper
 
sobeperry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by st0rmtr00per

This was me. after listening to videos all day of the ticking problem. I have decided my jeeps tick is just my injectors. the placebo effect def got me. hope my non professonial diagnostic is right.. Anyone else feel like they fell into this effect?
Lol. I did the same thing. Was on YouTube listening and comparing. I think mine is also just injector noise. I don't hear it in the car even with windows down. Just initial start as I approach car and standing outside near front. Lets hope!
sobeperry is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 02:44 PM   #3103
Jeeper
 
sobeperry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by aargh
Update: Now at 18,000 miles, 4,000 after head replacement, tick is back. No this motor nor any motor manufactured in this century should not tick. It was very quiet when it was new and quiet again after the repair. For that matter any sound coming from new motors today, is an indicator of bad design or a bad part, just listen to motors coming from Japan. So far it has not kicked a code like the first time, but I think its very possible it might do it again, exhaust smells even well after warmup, so I guess this head problem may have also affected the converter. I saw the first head when they took it apart . One of the exhaust valves on cylinder #2 was burned,which explained 35% loss of compression in that cylinder. As I posted originally, I wasn't treated really well, given that it is Chryslers fault. They did not offer a loaner vehicle, and held my vehicle up for four days, until I started to raise a stink. I have owned many new American vehicles, this is number 32, and I have to say that while I was really hot on this new Jeep, this after sales experience has cooled my opinions on Chrysler, no, I would not recommend this to a friend.
Sorry to hear but have to say almost all engines I listen to have a slight tick. I live in a city and constant walk by car engines. I listen to all from Mercedes, Honda and American. All have a light engine tick except the hybrids.
sobeperry is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 03:26 PM   #3104
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 123
I noticed it didn't sound right very early on. but figured it was just a cheap engine. Later I saw the thread but mine wasn't bad so I held out hope. At 9500 got to where I couldnt stand driving through the parking garage and my coworker who owns an older jeep walked by and asked me why it was ticking? But i was not anxious to try to sell the dealer on the ticking sound. Then at 11k the cel came on. Today I am betting dealer will say its nothing.
Rabblerouser is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 04:07 PM   #3105
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012unlimruby17 View Post
Just got off the phone with my dealer, gave them my VIN.. He said there was tech tips associated with performance and steps to take to diagnose it, Re-flash...etc.. I also gave him the TT-400-2479 and he said it didn't come up.. I think in your earlier post Stan you had 900-2479.. Nothing came up either. He said Tech Tips are usually three numbers followed by two and then four numbers like this 123-45-6789.
Just talked to my dealer, the Tech tip is: TT 900-2779. Sorry!

Numbers like 123-45-6789 are service bulletins, not Tech Tips, according to my dealer.

Now the interesting part: The Tech Tip has changed, It no longer asks for any driving history, or requires a fault code or compression check before getting authorization for a head replacement. Prior authorization from Chrysler is still required before the dealer can do a head replacement, however.

I was surprised to hear that the tech tip changed. I was told this is not uncommon for Tech tips to change.

The Tech tip now tells the technician to check the service manual for proper cam timing for both left & right heads because the valves can be damaged if they are not properly timed after a head replacement. The procedure is different for each head.

I asked the service advisor how many heads they had replaced. He said, none on Wranglers, but 2 or 3 on other models. He seemed well aware of the 3.6L head issue, and immediately asked if I was having a problem, when I started asking about head replacements. This dealer is a large volume dealer and they sell lots of Wranglers, as well as AEV Wranglers.

The Tech tip came up immediately after he input my VIN. I asked if that meant that my Wrangler was in the suspect population? He didn't know, and said that this Tech tip would pop up for any vehicle with a 3.6L, in for a head replacement.

Hope this helps.
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 04:15 PM   #3106
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
FYI, my Wrangler has 9500 miles on it and is 3 weeks short of a year old. It is driven mostly on short city traffic trips with some highway and off road miles as well. The engine is as quiet as the day I brought it home and averages a little better than 17.5 mpg over all, with a high of 21.23 mpg and a low of 15.16 mpg. All mileages are calculated using the "fuel log" app.
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 04:38 PM   #3107
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 123
Just got the call. They are replacing the head. Two days riding in a dependable 2007 Toyota minivan.
Rabblerouser is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 05:06 PM   #3108
Jeeper
 
TJeepman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabblerouser View Post
Just got the call. They are replacing the head. Two days riding in a dependable 2007 Toyota minivan.
Is the "warranty enhancement notice" in the glove box?
__________________
2003 Jeep TJ Sport - 4.0L - 251,430 kms
2002 and 2007 Grand Caravans - Sport & SXT
TJeepman is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 05:33 PM   #3109
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
SilverSport's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,799
Send a message via Yahoo to SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by stans1stjeep View Post
Just talked to my dealer, the Tech tip is: TT 900-2779. Sorry!

Numbers like 123-45-6789 are service bulletins, not Tech Tips, according to my dealer.

Now the interesting part: The Tech Tip has changed, It no longer asks for any driving history, or requires a fault code or compression check before getting authorization for a head replacement. Prior authorization from Chrysler is still required before the dealer can do a head replacement, however.

I was surprised to hear that the tech tip changed. I was told this is not uncommon for Tech tips to change.

The Tech tip now tells the technician to check the service manual for proper cam timing for both left & right heads because the valves can be damaged if they are not properly timed after a head replacement. The procedure is different for each head.

I asked the service advisor how many heads they had replaced. He said, none on Wranglers, but 2 or 3 on other models. He seemed well aware of the 3.6L head issue, and immediately asked if I was having a problem, when I started asking about head replacements. This dealer is a large volume dealer and they sell lots of Wranglers, as well as AEV Wranglers.

The Tech tip came up immediately after he input my VIN. I asked if that meant that my Wrangler was in the suspect population? He didn't know, and said that this Tech tip would pop up for any vehicle with a 3.6L, in for a head replacement.

Hope this helps.
You realize that you and I are gonna need new cylinder heads eventually?
__________________
"Own a Jeep and own a piece of history."

"The Hunter is not concerned with the opinion of the Wolf."
SilverSport is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 05:54 PM   #3110
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSport

You realize that you and I are gonna need new cylinder heads eventually?
Very likely! Good thing they will have the process down to a science by then. How many miles does you Jeep have now?
__________________
NRA Life Member!
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 05:55 PM   #3111
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
SilverSport's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,799
Send a message via Yahoo to SilverSport
A measly 4K. LOL
__________________
"Own a Jeep and own a piece of history."

"The Hunter is not concerned with the opinion of the Wolf."
SilverSport is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 05:56 PM   #3112
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSport
A measly 4K. LOL
Too much time posting on this forum. LOL...
__________________
NRA Life Member!
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 06:46 PM   #3113
Supporting Member

WF Supporting Member
 
SilverSport's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,799
Send a message via Yahoo to SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by stans1stjeep View Post
Too much time posting on this forum. LOL...
Short drives to work. LOL
__________________
"Own a Jeep and own a piece of history."

"The Hunter is not concerned with the opinion of the Wolf."
SilverSport is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:05 PM   #3114
Jeeper
 
2012unlimruby17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabblerouser View Post
Just got the call. They are replacing the head. Two days riding in a dependable 2007 Toyota minivan.
Be careful in that mini-van... They are very practical! Next thing you know you'll be picking up your jeep to trade it in on a Mini-van. Only if they could make them manly! Keep us posted!
2012unlimruby17 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:10 PM   #3115
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSport

Short drives to work. LOL
I'm retired, so I have more time to drive mine.
__________________
NRA Life Member!
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:19 PM   #3116
rotaredoM

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
panthermark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago-land
Posts: 9,647
Images: 13
I'm not sure if that is good news or bad news for the 2012's.

So....you pop in your vin and if it pops up....you are basically OK'd for a new head (assuming Chrysler approves it)?

If it is vin loaded...why not contact the owners of those vehicles? Are they just waiting (hoping) the owner does not know better?
__________________
2013 Sahara Unlimited
Billet - Auto - 3.73 - Connectivity - Painted Hardtop - LSD - Remote Start - Saddle Leather - Side Airbags

I may mall crawl...but I look good doing it.....
panthermark is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:33 PM   #3117
Jeeper
 
2012unlimruby17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
I'm not sure if that is good news or bad news for the 2012's.

So....you pop in your vin and if it pops up....you are basically OK'd for a new head (assuming Chrysler approves it)?

If it is vin loaded...why not contact the owners of those vehicles? Are they just waiting (hoping) the owner does not know better?
Maybe they just simply do not have enough produced yet to do a massive recall... It would be better for them to do it on an individual basis.Dealers would be flooded and overwhelmed. My opinion is it is going to be a large scale deal. Most people are not on the forums and are not aware or even listen to the way there vehicle sounds... They just drive em.. And when they break, they get them fixed! See its tough though with Jeepers because we are very aware and passionate about our Jeeps... This Forum and others are 100% the reason why Chrysler made a statement... The issue was getting too big for them not to.. So they were, and are scrambling for a fix.. AB was a possible temp fix or a early alternate head design, that they tried.. Then the AC head. I'm not into conspiracy theory's but... I'm sure we/us 2012 owners... We're field tests... To really see how this arrangement worked in a wrangler... Just my opinion. Sometimes the best way to really learn is when your doing it... In this case... Seeing how it performed in the field.
2012unlimruby17 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:42 PM   #3118
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark
I'm not sure if that is good news or bad news for the 2012's.

So....you pop in your vin and if it pops up....you are basically OK'd for a new head (assuming Chrysler approves it)?

If it is vin loaded...why not contact the owners of those vehicles? Are they just waiting (hoping) the owner does not know better?
I'm not sure it's as easy as poping in your vin. I have to believe the dealer has to prove to Chrysler, some how, that the head needs to be replaced. I was suprised that the fault code & compression test was dropped.

Tech tips are intended to help dealers trouble shoot and repair warranty complaints. At this point, Chrysler is treating the 3.6L head replacement as a standard warranty repair. Based on this as a standard warranty issue the repair will be made when & if the failure occurs.
__________________
NRA Life Member!
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:45 PM   #3119
Haf
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 115
I have a ticking but not sure if its normal or "the ticking". No code, 7300 miles or so. Could this be the reason my mileage is in average 13-14mpg??
Haf is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 10-24-2012, 07:51 PM   #3120
Grampie

WF Supporting Member
 
stans1stjeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rochester, Mi
Posts: 783
I've said this before, the head issue does not meet the criteria for a recall. It's not a safety issue, gives plenty of warning, and does not leave the owner stuck on the side of the road. NTHSA governs recalls & thereis specific criteria before s recall is appropriate. The Toyota window switch recall, referenced in an earlier post, was due to the threat of fire, which does meet the recall criteria.

__________________
NRA Life Member!
stans1stjeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How can you tell if your head or head gasket is cracked/blown? archt JK General Discussion Forum 5 10-19-2012 11:43 AM
Head Unit won't turn on anymore?? BlackMountain JK General Discussion Forum 17 05-15-2011 05:17 PM
Really bummed...cracked head? rospan TJ General Discussion Forum 5 04-03-2011 10:58 AM
I need a head... oops... a 4.0 head! kllrdana TJ General Discussion Forum 2 03-26-2011 04:36 PM
Head Unit Jacked!!! TJChris27 TJ General Discussion Forum 15 03-25-2011 03:20 PM



» Network Links
»Jeep Parts
» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:40 PM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC