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Old 10-28-2012, 01:14 PM   #3241
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As long as the 2nd head specs out properly with good compression and passes a leak down test, there is no reason to change it.

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Old 10-28-2012, 01:35 PM   #3242
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Originally Posted by johnnyjellybean View Post
as long as the 2nd head specs out properly with good compression and passes a leak down test, there is no reason to change it.
x2

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Old 10-28-2012, 04:47 PM   #3243
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As long as the 2nd head specs out properly with good compression and passes a leak down test, there is no reason to change it.
It might spec out, but it still has the wear, carbon accumulation etc, that the new head doesn't have. I wouldn't be happy with that, especially if the engine has more that a few thousand miles on it. Ask any good engine builder what they think about swapping only one head on an engine that has accumulated some miles on it and a history of cylinder head problems. I bet he'd tell you to swap both heads, if he doesn't look for another engine builder. The reason Chrysler isn't doing it is cost, and they are now obligated too.

Lets not forget we're talking about new vehicles less than a year old, some costing close to $40,000, or possibly more. JMO
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:00 PM   #3244
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Jeep will not let the dealer relpace both heads and or block if only one head is bad because the customer says that's the best way to do it. They usually want the parts back and if nothing was wrong with 7,000 +- of extra parts the dealer could be stuck with the bill...
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:04 PM   #3245
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Jeep will not let the dealer relpace both heads and or block if only one head is bad because the customer says that's the best way to do it. They usually want the parts back and if nothing was wrong with 7,000 +- of extra parts the dealer could be stuck with the bill...
I know exactly how the system works, I worked in the business. I'm strictly talking about doing the job properly that's all.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:09 PM   #3246
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As long as the 2nd head specs out properly with good compression and passes a leak down test, there is no reason to change it.
Very true, and likely the acceptable scenario at a dealership since Chrysler is footing the bill, but the higher the miles the more apprehensive I personally would be of things going haywire with the other down the road. Especially given the near-fact that valve guides and seats on certain 3.6 heads are suspect.

On a performance-oriented build (which is my forte as a sideline), I would recommend to a customer that both be changed.....
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:24 PM   #3247
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I know exactly how the system works, I worked in the business. I'm strictly talking about doing the job properly that's all.
The price of parts are out of control. Just 15 years new 5 speed tranny was 2,500.we thought that was high.last week new 6 speed was close to 10k.still need a clutch. Going to bet in the future if it just needs guides or whatever is the true cause dealers will replace just the needed parts.people will not be happy ..
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:28 PM   #3248
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The price of parts are out of control. Just 15 years new 5 speed tranny was 2,500.we thought that was high.last week new 6 speed was close to 10k.still need a clutch. Going to bet in the future if it just needs guides or whatever is the true cause dealers will replace just the needed parts.people will not be happy ..
Not sure where you are getting your prices but a new 6 speed from the dealer lists for $4,800.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:29 PM   #3249
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The price of parts are out of control. Just 15 years new 5 speed tranny was 2,500.we thought that was high.last week new 6 speed was close to 10k.still need a clutch. Going to bet in the future if it just needs guides or whatever is the true cause dealers will replace just the needed parts.people will not be happy ..
No argument there. Like I said before I was talking about doing the right job. Chrysler isn't going to pay for the right job, no company will, in the end the consumer is the loser. Hopefully they've got the right fix for the problem, and this time next year the Pentastar tick will be a distant memory.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:50 PM   #3250
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Not sure where you are getting your prices but a new 6 speed from the dealer lists for $4,800.
It's not for a wrangler or any jeep product.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:52 PM   #3251
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I know this engine is used in other Chrysler vehicles. Is this problem only limited to Jeeps?
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:58 PM   #3252
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I know this engine is used in other Chrysler vehicles. Is this problem only limited to Jeeps?
No, other Chrysler products are having the problem too.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:04 PM   #3253
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It might spec out, but it still has the wear, carbon accumulation etc, that the new head doesn't have. I wouldn't be happy with that, especially if the engine has more that a few thousand miles on it. Ask any good engine builder what they think about swapping only one head on an engine that has accumulated some miles on it and a history of cylinder head problems. I bet he'd tell you to swap both heads, if he doesn't look for another engine builder. The reason Chrysler isn't doing it is cost, and they are now obligated too.

Lets not forget we're talking about new vehicles less than a year old, some costing close to $40,000, or possibly more. JMO

If the specs are good ie: good compression and no leakdown........ then there is no wear!! I AM a good engine builder and would have no hesitation in changing one head that say broke a few inner springs and had some valves kiss the pistons....... in fact I've done it and got several seasons of HARD driving and racing on a stroker motor that I did it to. We are talking 1/4 mile racing and dumping the clutch at 6K rpms on a 575 hp 383 stroker.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:39 PM   #3254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjellybean View Post
If the specs are good ie: good compression and no leakdown........ then there is no wear!! I AM a good engine builder and would have no hesitation in changing one head that say broke a few inner springs and had some valves kiss the pistons....... in fact I've done it and got several seasons of HARD driving and racing on a stroker motor that I did it to. We are talking 1/4 mile racing and dumping the clutch at 6K rpms on a 575 hp 383 stroker.
X2 again. You only need to replace parts that are out of spec. your engine won't care that the good parts were not replaced it will have no effect even if the engine has 100,000 miles as long as everything else is in spec. heck the minute you start it up they are no longer new parts. a new ecm/ecu controlled epa compliant clean burning engines there is not much carbon build up unless you have some other problems. I now for a fact that gm dealers did not change out both sets of heads on v8's when they had to replace a single bad valve.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:42 PM   #3255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjellybean View Post
If the specs are good ie: good compression and no leakdown........ then there is no wear!! I AM a good engine builder and would have no hesitation in changing one head that say broke a few inner springs and had some valves kiss the pistons....... in fact I've done it and got several seasons of HARD driving and racing on a stroker motor that I did it to. We are talking 1/4 mile racing and dumping the clutch at 6K rpms on a 575 hp 383 stroker.
yeah i would agree, you don't normally treat heads like brake pads. you can do one side and get away with it. a cylinder head should have a life of 250k miles at least. changing one or the other at 5-20k miles isn't going to make a difference at the end of the day.

but in this case, one head now has upgraded valve material and the other doesn't which makes me think that eventually the other will succumb to the same issue somewhere down the road. probably not far down the road. it makes sense to change both to the new version. i think they're just spreading the cost over time.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:53 PM   #3256
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Originally Posted by johnnyjellybean View Post
If the specs are good ie: good compression and no leakdown........ then there is no wear!! I AM a good engine builder and would have no hesitation in changing one head that say broke a few inner springs and had some valves kiss the pistons....... in fact I've done it and got several seasons of HARD driving and racing on a stroker motor that I did it to. We are talking 1/4 mile racing and dumping the clutch at 6K rpms on a 575 hp 383 stroker.
To each his own. I worked with some of the best machinists on Long Island and we respectfully disagree. This is how car warranties work, not the best way to repair an engine, especially one with a history of having cylinder head problems, [with is it 2 revisions now?]. If I ran a newly built engine a few passes down a 1/4 mile track I'd agree with you, that's not the case here.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:19 PM   #3257
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I don't think this hasn't been posted here
From Chrysler dealing with the reflash:


THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES SERVICE BULLETIN 18-054-11, DATED DECEMBER
15, 2011, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE
HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDE THE RELEASE OF NEW
SOFTWARE THAT INCLUDES 2012 VEHICLES BUILT UP TO JANUARY 23, 2012 AND
FURTHER ENHANCEMENTS FOR MONITORING MIL P0441.
HELP USING THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION FOR FLASHING AN ECU IS
AVAILABLE BY SELECTING “HELP” THEN “HELP CONTENTS” AT THE TOP OF
THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION WINDOW.
THE wiTECH SOFTWARE LEVEL MUST BE AT RELEASE 12.02 OR HIGHER TO
PERFORM THIS PROCEDURE.
SUBJECT:
Flash: MIL Illumination P0441, P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306,
P0420, P0430, P0133, P0153, P0835
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves selectively erasing and reprogramming the Powertrain Control
Module (PCM) with new software.
MODELS:
2012 (JK) Wrangler
NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicle equipped with a 3.6L engine (sales code ERB)
built before **January 24, 2012 (MDH 0124XX)**.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may experience a Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) illumination. Upon
further investigation the Technician may find that any of the following Diagnostic Trouble
Codes (DTC's) have been set.
a. **P0441 - Evap Purge System Performance**
b. P0420 - Catalyst Efficiency (Bank 1)
c. P0430 - Catalyst Efficiency (Bank2)
d. P0133 - O2 Sensor 1/1 Slow Response
e. P0153 - O2 Sensor 2/1 Slow Response
f. P0300 - Multiple Cylinder Misfire
g. P0301 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
NUMBER: 18-007-12
GROUP: Vehicle Performance
DATE: February 07, 2012
h. P0302 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
i. P0303 - Cylinder 3 Misfire
j. P0304 - Cylinder 4 Misfire
k. P0305 - Cylinder 5 Misfire
l. P0306 - Cylinder 6 Misfire
m. P0835 - Clutch Pedal Switch "B" Circuit High Manual Transmission Vehicles Only
Updating the software will correct the conditions listed above.
DIAGNOSIS:
Using a Scan Tool (wiTECH) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedures available in
TechCONNECT, verify all engine systems are functioning as designed. If DTC's other then
the ones listed above are present record them on the repair order and repair as necessary
before proceeding further with this bulletin.
If the customer describe the symptom/condition or if the technician finds the DTC, perform
the Repair Procedure.
PARTS REQUIRED:
Qty. Part No. Description
1 04275086AD Label, Authorized Modification
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
NOTE: Install a battery charger to ensure battery voltage does not drop below 13.2
volts. Do not allow the charging voltage to climb above 13.5 volts during the
flash process.
NOTE: If this flash process is interrupted/aborted, the flash should be restarted.
1. Reprogram the PCM with the latest software. Follow the detailed service procedures
available in DealerCONNECT/TechCONNECT, Refer To Group 8 - Electrical >
Electronic Control Modules - Service Information > Module - Powertrain Control >
Standard Procedures > PCM/ECM Programming. After PCM reprogramming, the
following must be performed:
a. Clear any DTC's that may have been set in other modules due to reprogramming.
The wiTECH application will automatically present all DTCs after the flash and allow
the tech to clear them.
2. Type the necessary information on the “Authorized Modification Label” and attach it
near the VECI label.
POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:38 AM   #3258
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So.....the reflash increases the threshold for detecting and reporting misfires in the engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capndan View Post
I don't think this hasn't been posted here
From Chrysler dealing with the reflash:


THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES SERVICE BULLETIN 18-054-11, DATED DECEMBER
15, 2011, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE
HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDE THE RELEASE OF NEW
SOFTWARE THAT INCLUDES 2012 VEHICLES BUILT UP TO JANUARY 23, 2012 AND
FURTHER ENHANCEMENTS FOR MONITORING MIL P0441.
HELP USING THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION FOR FLASHING AN ECU IS
AVAILABLE BY SELECTING “HELP” THEN “HELP CONTENTS” AT THE TOP OF
THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION WINDOW.
THE wiTECH SOFTWARE LEVEL MUST BE AT RELEASE 12.02 OR HIGHER TO
PERFORM THIS PROCEDURE.
SUBJECT:
Flash: MIL Illumination P0441, P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306,
P0420, P0430, P0133, P0153, P0835
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves selectively erasing and reprogramming the Powertrain Control
Module (PCM) with new software.
MODELS:
2012 (JK) Wrangler
NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicle equipped with a 3.6L engine (sales code ERB)
built before **January 24, 2012 (MDH 0124XX)**.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may experience a Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) illumination. Upon
further investigation the Technician may find that any of the following Diagnostic Trouble
Codes (DTC's) have been set.
a. **P0441 - Evap Purge System Performance**
b. P0420 - Catalyst Efficiency (Bank 1)
c. P0430 - Catalyst Efficiency (Bank2)
d. P0133 - O2 Sensor 1/1 Slow Response
e. P0153 - O2 Sensor 2/1 Slow Response
f. P0300 - Multiple Cylinder Misfire
g. P0301 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
NUMBER: 18-007-12
GROUP: Vehicle Performance
DATE: February 07, 2012
h. P0302 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
i. P0303 - Cylinder 3 Misfire
j. P0304 - Cylinder 4 Misfire
k. P0305 - Cylinder 5 Misfire
l. P0306 - Cylinder 6 Misfire
m. P0835 - Clutch Pedal Switch "B" Circuit High Manual Transmission Vehicles Only
Updating the software will correct the conditions listed above.
DIAGNOSIS:
Using a Scan Tool (wiTECH) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedures available in
TechCONNECT, verify all engine systems are functioning as designed. If DTC's other then
the ones listed above are present record them on the repair order and repair as necessary
before proceeding further with this bulletin.
If the customer describe the symptom/condition or if the technician finds the DTC, perform
the Repair Procedure.
PARTS REQUIRED:
Qty. Part No. Description
1 04275086AD Label, Authorized Modification
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
NOTE: Install a battery charger to ensure battery voltage does not drop below 13.2
volts. Do not allow the charging voltage to climb above 13.5 volts during the
flash process.
NOTE: If this flash process is interrupted/aborted, the flash should be restarted.
1. Reprogram the PCM with the latest software. Follow the detailed service procedures
available in DealerCONNECT/TechCONNECT, Refer To Group 8 - Electrical >
Electronic Control Modules - Service Information > Module - Powertrain Control >
Standard Procedures > PCM/ECM Programming. After PCM reprogramming, the
following must be performed:
a. Clear any DTC's that may have been set in other modules due to reprogramming.
The wiTECH application will automatically present all DTCs after the flash and allow
the tech to clear them.
2. Type the necessary information on the “Authorized Modification Label” and attach it
near the VECI label.
POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:01 AM   #3259
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I thought the reflash was Chryslers first attempt to fix the head issue?
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:07 AM   #3260
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Sounds like a chrysler cover up attempt
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:17 PM   #3261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aypanthony
So.....the reflash increases the threshold for detecting and reporting misfires in the engine?
That is best case... detection may be shut off completely. That will fix the problem for sure.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:21 PM   #3262
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So is this issue limited to 2012s or does this issue exist on the 2013?
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:45 PM   #3263
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I just had the flash done today....this doesn't fix the ticking only makes it take longer for it to be detected ???
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:46 PM   #3264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathew85
So is this issue limited to 2012s or does this issue exist on the 2013?
Based upon the info in the bulletin posted a few pages back, heads with a Julian date stamp of 2062 or later should have the latest AC design head. Some of the early 2013s will have the AB design head but it is not known whether the AB design will develop the tick. If you're worried about it, check the date code on the head of any vehicle you're considering.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:48 PM   #3265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poneyxpres

That is best case... detection may be shut off completely. That will fix the problem for sure.
I'm sure the EPA would take issue with a modification to suppress misfire detection
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:04 PM   #3266
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So is this issue limited to 2012s or does this issue exist on the 2013?

I've read of two 2013's with the problem, but can't confirm it. They aren't on the road long enough to be 100% certain just yet.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:07 PM   #3267
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I just had the flash done today....this doesn't fix the ticking only makes it take longer for it to be detected ???
That is the first step they have to take before swapping the cylinder head.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:52 PM   #3268
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Quote:
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Based upon the info in the bulletin posted a few pages back, heads with a Julian date stamp of 2062 or later should have the latest AC design head. Some of the early 2013s will have the AB design head but it is not known whether the AB design will develop the tick. If you're worried about it, check the date code on the head of any vehicle you're considering.
I have it on order; isn't scheduled for production yet. So I hope Chrysler will put in the updated head ?
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:36 PM   #3269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demarpaint

That is the first step they have to take before swapping the cylinder head.
So that means... The motor is continuing to tick and cause damage but my MIL isn't voice.g to light up. And they will o.ly replace my heads if the MIL returns?!
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:05 PM   #3270
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No. The flash is "supposed" to have "further enhancements for monitoring" ...

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