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Old 01-12-2013, 01:57 PM   #3991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armaghroadman View Post
.
The invoice says #4 exhaust valve seat defect, was I wrong in thinking it should have been #2 ?
No it could been any of the valves on the left bank of the engine.

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Old 01-12-2013, 02:14 PM   #3992
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Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
Yes.. Interesting comment you made about that loop in the exhaust - never crossed my mind. A laser temp gun may provide evidence one side runs hotter than the other. If true, it could point to the rumors about water jacket deviations or the loop is causing more back pressure on the driver side.

.
Someone on here mentioned the exhaust loop once before. Redesigning the head for better coolant flow makes me think heat may play into this. Chrysler's explanation for the loop was so the drivers side of the Y pipe would be a similar length to the passenger side.

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Old 01-12-2013, 05:06 PM   #3993
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I would like to see a map of the failures based on geographic location to see if there is a tendency for more of these to happen in warmer climates or in more stressful mountainous driving situations. Also I am wondering if more have happened during the warmer months or after long intense drives.

I have no tick on my sept 11 build 2012 JKUS. I live in NH where it is mild temps and have not driven mine for any trip longer than 2 hours.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:19 PM   #3994
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There is a recent thread on geographic location of failures.

Found it: http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/pol...es-208646.html
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:50 PM   #3995
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The topic of that thread came to my mind months ago, prior to the poll. Sure seems like engine temp has a bearing on the head issues coming to light, and warmer climes would have an issue show up earlier and more frequently.....
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:29 AM   #3996
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Cylinder Head

My check engine light just came on at 19,000 miles. I have 2012 JK built 8/11. Took to dealer to check it out. Needs new cylinder head. I asked if their mechanics are experienced with doing this. The service manager indicated that they did 7 last week, alone, so they are very experienced. I asked if these were all on new pentastar engines and he indicated yes. I indicated that given the number of occurances of this problem shouldn't crysler issue a recall. He said there is no way they will since it would be too expensive. After searching complaints on the NHTSA website I found 25 complaints posted regarding this exact problem for model year 2012 JK's. You can go to this link and search for vehicle complaints Search for a Complaint | Safercar.gov | NHTSA to view them. It seems that only if it is a safety issue can the manufacturer be forced to issue a recall.
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:12 PM   #3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armaghroadman View Post
Could that maybe cause a build of pressure, to get around the loop?
check out this shot and description
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/201...ml#post1518026
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:30 PM   #3998
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Anyone know what the real issue is? What's the robust difference from old to new?
IMO the cause of the problem is self evident, heat build up causing accelerated valve guide/face/seat failure. It affects exhausts valves because they run hotter.

IMO what is causing the heat build is less obvious, but I think we can make some pretty good guesses. Both sides can fail, but the left side fails far more frequently than the right. Hello exhaust loop.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/201...ml#post1518026

From this pic it can be seen to be fairly far removed from the left side head, but it may be causing heat build on left side engine compartment. Back pressure would be equal both sides, heat due to proximity of loop would not be. I would guess if that's the case, probability of failure goes up with extended stop and go driving in hotter climes.

An advantage of conventional design exhaust manifold is heat exits earlier, and it goes directly into a cast iron heat sink! (the exhaust manifold). Integrating manifold into head apparently has certain efficiencies (weight, cost), but apparently efficient heat dissapation not among them.

It can also be seen from the photo that cats are snugged right up to block, questionable placement under the circumstances (heat induced exhaust valve failure).

With all due respect to those saying this has something to do with a run of substandard materials, I can't see how that's a very high probability. At all. That is the kind of thang Crysler would want you to think. So don't be a dummy
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:37 PM   #3999
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Originally Posted by rtguy View Post

sounds normal to me.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope your right.
I still hear a tick.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:38 PM   #4000
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O.k, so after a 45 min. drive today, I left it running, got a temp. lasergun, and took a reading from both sides of the engines exhaust, from the front wheel wells, under the gap flaps and above the frame. I took the reading from just below the large section of pipe that would normally be the bottom of a header, about one inch down from the start of the single tube.
On the right or passenger side, I got a temp. of 203f, and on the left or driver side it was 295f. I did it 3 times, with a difference of less than 3 degrees on each sides reading.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:51 PM   #4001
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Thanks for all the info. It's making sense. I wonder if insulated hoods and clogged coolant system issues make the heat worse? I would think yes. The loop has to be a guilty factor
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:14 PM   #4002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armaghroadman View Post
O.k, so after a 45 min. drive today, I left it running, got a temp. lasergun, and took a reading from both sides of the engines exhaust, from the front wheel wells, under the gap flaps and above the frame. I took the reading from just below the large section of pipe that would normally be the bottom of a header, about one inch down from the start of the single tube.
On the right or passenger side, I got a temp. of 203f, and on the left or driver side it was 295f. I did it 3 times, with a difference of less than 3 degrees on each sides reading.
60+ degree difference. Things that make you say Hmm.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:17 PM   #4003
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60+ degree difference. Things that make you say Hmm.
Uh, Silver, you wanna check your math?
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:30 PM   #4004
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Originally Posted by Armaghroadman View Post
O.k, so after a 45 min. drive today, I left it running, got a temp. lasergun, and took a reading from both sides of the engines exhaust, from the front wheel wells, under the gap flaps and above the frame. I took the reading from just below the large section of pipe that would normally be the bottom of a header, about one inch down from the start of the single tube.
On the right or passenger side, I got a temp. of 203f, and on the left or driver side it was 295f. I did it 3 times, with a difference of less than 3 degrees on each sides reading.
Kudos for proving something that myself and others said a long time ago. It looks like heat just might be the issue. IIRC Mr. Lee from Chrysler denied heat was the problem, but had a list of reasons, none of which were Chrysler's fault. I feel bad for anyone who is having this problem. I think a class action lawsuit is in order for anyone owning a Pentastar powered vehicle. Perhaps a lifetime warranty for anyone owning a AA or AB head Pentastar engine, possibly an AC head engine until there's proof going forward the problem was resolved.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:43 PM   #4005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomster View Post
Uh, Silver, you wanna check your math?
92 is in the 60+ range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
Kudos for proving something that myself and others said a long time ago. It looks like heat just might be the issue. IIRC Mr. Lee from Chrysler denied heat was the problem, but had a list of reasons, none of which were Chrysler's fault. I feel bad for anyone who is having this problem. I think a class action lawsuit is in order for anyone owning a Pentastar powered vehicle. Perhaps a lifetime warranty for anyone owning a AA or AB head Pentastar engine, possibly an AC head engine until there's proof going forward the problem was resolved.
Also lends credence to the story that the head was redesigned for better coolant flow.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:47 PM   #4006
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92 is in the 60+ range.



Also lends credence to the story that the head was redesigned for better coolant flow.
It sure does, and that is an admission that heat is a problem, but they'll never admit that.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:48 PM   #4007
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Lawsuit

With all due respect, I will be upset if this happens to my 2012, however they are fixing the issue. So if they are fixing the problem and it's not a safety issue why a lawsuit? Just curious.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:48 PM   #4008
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Armaghroadman... thanks for performing this test and measuring the heads!

Damn, close to 100 degrees difference on the side that's having trouble... if that's not a smoking gun, I don't know what is...

I think Chrysler needs to come clean on this design...

I would like to know if there's a reduction of heat with the new AC head.. or are they simply changing to more robust materials that can withstand the extra heat this is generating.

My questions:

Is the valvetrain designed now using different materials on the left head vs. the right head?

And what does that do over the long term to performance and emissions?

In California, after 6 years we need biannual emission tests... wonder if this 3.6L will pass?

what a cluster...

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Old 01-13-2013, 05:01 PM   #4009
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With all due respect, I will be upset if this happens to my 2012, however they are fixing the issue. So if they are fixing the problem and it's not a safety issue why a lawsuit? Just curious.
Just my opinion, that's all. A question with all due respect: How would you feel if your head failed just out of warranty and you had to pay for a head swap on an engine with a documented history of failed heads that this engine has? Since this isn't a daily driver for some people they might only see 30-40,000 miles before the time element of their warranty runs out. Imagine 35,000 miles and the warranty expired a year before the head failed, then praying they goodwill it. Wouldn't it be nice to know you'd be covered for as long as you own the vehicle? I bet a lot of people would be more comfortable with the additional free coverage.

Chrysler claims it's only a small percent of engines involved so it shouldn't be that big a deal should it?
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:04 PM   #4010
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Originally Posted by Armaghroadman View Post
On the right or passenger side, I got a temp. of 203f, and on the left or driver side it was 295f.
Seems to me that even 300F is not that high

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Old 01-13-2013, 05:07 PM   #4011
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On another note, my guess this would be classified under federal emissions warranty...

Since the exhaust manifold is integrated into the heads, what happens?

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Old 01-13-2013, 05:07 PM   #4012
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I believe it was SilverSports thought, apologies if someone else.
I think it needs researching under more controlled conditions, but 92 degrees difference from one side to another seems like an awful lot. Especially when exhaust temps start rising.(maybe that is the "unspecified driving conditions" Bob Lee meant in his report on this)
And if owners take it upon themselves to delete the loop with an aftermarket mod, their warranties may be denied. It feels like between a rock and a hard place. I don't believe there is a compatible loop delete system yet, or if there would be a different one needed for two or four doors, but I really hope Chrysler consider or have looked at this, and if it is a factor, it has to become part of the service repair.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:52 PM   #4013
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On another note, my guess this would be classified under federal emissions warranty...

Since the exhaust manifold is integrated into the heads, what happens?

.
No, a cylinder head will NOT be covered by Fed Emissions.

However, I anticipate that Chrysler will extend the warranty on the left cylinder head for vehicles that do not have Powertrain, to something like 8 years/96,000 miles. Kind of like they did with the JK trans cooler line leaking issue.

And even if they don't extend the warranty this is clearly something that would be covered under a goodwill warranty wether your out by time, mileage or both.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:01 PM   #4014
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And for the sake of thinking out loud, does anyone know if the GC's or the Caravans with the Pentastar have an exhaust loop?
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:20 PM   #4015
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Just my opinion, that's all. A question with all due respect: How would you feel if your head failed just out of warranty and you had to pay for a head swap on an engine with a documented history of failed heads that this engine has? Since this isn't a daily driver for some people they might only see 30-40,000 miles before the time element of their warranty runs out. Imagine 35,000 miles and the warranty expired a year before the head failed, then praying they goodwill it. Wouldn't it be nice to know you'd be covered for as long as you own the vehicle? I bet a lot of people would be more comfortable with the additional free coverage.

Chrysler claims it's only a small percent of engines involved so it shouldn't be that big a deal should it?
I agree to your point and am in the same boat regarding daily driver and mileage. But with this issue being noted as much as it has I can't imagine any dealer trying that move and getting away with not covering it out of warranty. However if they tried that, a lawsuit may make sense. I just don't think a lawsuit now and out of warranty coverage later are necessarily related.
And I do sympathize with those with issue. I checked my head date (1062), my day is probably coming. I hope sooner vs later.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #4016
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Deep jeep, this issue made me change my Jeep from weekend cruiser to daily driver overnight. I didn't want to risk keeping a sleeping monster in the garage that would crap it's heads out of warranty. So as soon as the first rumors came out of bad heads, I started commuting 125 miles a day in the JK.
And sure enough, at approx. 12,500 miles, the dreaded tick started.
I would recommend anyone doing the same, keeping the miles off their 3.6 JK, reconsider..
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #4017
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Seems to me that even 300F is not that high

DB
Yeah, but consider where that was measured. If it is that much at that point, what is the difference in the head?
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:41 PM   #4018
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I'm literally laughing out load, cause I'm doing the same thing. Instead of using our other vehicle to work. But at only 6000 miles, I got some work to do. How bad is your ticking?
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:41 PM   #4019
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Deep jeep, this issue made me change my Jeep from weekend cruiser to daily driver overnight. I didn't want to risk keeping a sleeping monster in the garage that would crap it's heads out of warranty. So as soon as the first rumors came out of bad heads, I started commuting 125 miles a day in the JK.
And sure enough, at approx. 12,500 miles, the dreaded tick started.
I would recommend anyone doing the same, keeping the miles off their 3.6 JK, reconsider..
Meant to quote this
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:43 PM   #4020
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I don't believe the loop is a factor since it's unique to the wrangler and the problem isn't limited to wranglers.

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