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Old 01-13-2013, 05:46 PM   #4021
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Originally Posted by Deepjeep1371 View Post
I agree to your point and am in the same boat regarding daily driver and mileage. But with this issue being noted as much as it has I can't imagine any dealer trying that move and getting away with not covering it out of warranty. However if they tried that, a lawsuit may make sense. I just don't think a lawsuit now and out of warranty coverage later are necessarily related.
And I do sympathize with those with issue. I checked my head date (1062), my day is probably coming. I hope sooner vs later.
I hear ya. I'd just want the peace of knowing that if I had an issue down the road it wouldn't have to be handled case by case or by dealer discretion after the warranty is up. I don't like areas of gray, and that is why this thread is of interest to me. I canned buying a 2012, was hoping they'd resolve it for 2013, now some early 13's have issues. Its winter and I have no problem waiting to be 100% sure its resolved before I buy, even if that means a 2014. LOL. But that's just me. I had a new vehicle with issues and it was not fun getting it right. The good news is I want the vehicle, I don't need it, and I haven't given up on Jeep.

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Old 01-13-2013, 05:47 PM   #4022
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I'm literally laughing out load, cause I'm doing the same thing. Instead of using our other vehicle to work. But at only 6000 miles, I got some work to do. How bad is your ticking?
You won't like this answer, but I picked it up from the dealer this past Saturday, with a new head...

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Old 01-13-2013, 05:47 PM   #4023
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i don't believe the loop is a factor since it's unique to the wrangler and the problem isn't limited to wranglers.
+1
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:54 PM   #4024
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I don't believe the loop is a factor since it's unique to the wrangler and the problem isn't limited to wranglers.
So there is the same percentage of other 3.6 equipped models affected?
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:56 PM   #4025
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So I have two 2012's with the 3.6 1 Wrangler ad 1 Cherokee....my beloved jk has the tick and the cherokee is fine.

how long should I anticipate being without my Jeep?
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:01 PM   #4026
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So there is the same percentage of other 3.6 equipped models affected?
No, it id MUCH MUCH MUCH more prevelant with Wranglers than T&C's or Grand Cherokees, and other vehicles.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #4027
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So I have two 2012's with the 3.6 1 Wrangler ad 1 Cherokee....my beloved jk has the tick and the cherokee is fine.

how long should I anticipate being without my Jeep?
Well, they had mine done in 5 days, diagnosis to completion..
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:25 PM   #4028
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Originally Posted by Armaghroadman

Well, they had mine done in 5 days, diagnosis to completion..
Thanks! I guess mine waits till after my planned Saturday trail ride
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:50 PM   #4029
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I believe it was SilverSports thought, apologies if someone else.
I think it needs researching under more controlled conditions, but 92 degrees difference from one side to another seems like an awful lot. Especially when exhaust temps start rising.(maybe that is the "unspecified driving conditions" Bob Lee meant in his report on this)
And if owners take it upon themselves to delete the loop with an aftermarket mod, their warranties may be denied. It feels like between a rock and a hard place. I don't believe there is a compatible loop delete system yet, or if there would be a different one needed for two or four doors, but I really hope Chrysler consider or have looked at this, and if it is a factor, it has to become part of the service repair.
Deleting the loop with an aftermarket Y pipe SHOULDN'T (LOL) affect the warranty since it would be considered after the "cat". aFe makes one, but is the equal exhaust length necessary with the VVT on the 3.6?

The "cat" isn't just a standard "warm up" cat either but a full blown catalytic converter. Lots of heat generated.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:26 PM   #4030
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Deleting the loop with an aftermarket Y pipe SHOULDN'T (LOL) affect the warranty since it would be considered after the "cat". aFe makes one, but is the equal exhaust length necessary with the VVT on the 3.6?

The "cat" isn't just a standard "warm up" cat either but a full blown catalytic converter. Lots of heat generated.
I believe it is, I have read CELs are thrown with tampering with the loop..
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:48 PM   #4031
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I don't believe the loop is a factor since it's unique to the wrangler and the problem isn't limited to wranglers.
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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
+1
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Originally Posted by Armaghroadman View Post
So there is the same percentage of other 3.6 equipped models affected?
The problem is way higher in Wranglers, and waay higher on the loop side. If the loop has nothing to do with it then heat differential between right and left side should be nil with the new head, and that can be checked with a laser thermometer the way Armaghroadman did.

Since the left side head is usually the only one replaced, with the redesigned coolant flow it should be somewhat cooler even if the loop contributes to heat build on the left side. But if the loop is contributing it still won't be equal.

Checking the difference on a vehicle with both heads replaced with "C" left side, and "D" right side would also be informative. If it turns out heat on the left is still higher, the loop is still in the loop

If that turns out to be the case, ideally we'd see a replacement of both heads, and a redesign of the exhaust system to move the cats back out of the engine compartment, and doing away with the loop entirely. But we already know Crysler is going to spend as little time/money on this problem as possible.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:46 AM   #4032
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Ok, where to begin.... For starters my tech info. 2012 JKU (Altitude Edition , but that's irrelevant, I think) Anyway, Jeep build date is June 12 and Julian head date is 1062, automatic with 6000 miles on it. My head clearly does not make the new design cutoff date of 2062.
So, I have always and still remain in– different to this problem in the sense that if I get the dreaded "tick" then it will be fixed. I have said since day one (check my posts) that this motor ticks like a "singer sewing machine". I was paranoid at first but in time I slowly stopped worrying about it. Hell , I even started the "ticking Altitude thread" (karma, lol)
I've kept up with this thread daily, feeling that if/when I get the issue I will be better informed at the dealership /stealership.
So with all that being said I saw a buddy today who saw my jeep when I first bought it, he liked it and went to the same dealer and bought one too. He went with a JK 4 door with a dealer done lift kit 35's (may or may not be relevant). With a manual transmission. While talking to him today I thought this may be a good opportunity to hear another 2012 run, I had him start it and ...... Wow! Quiet as a church mouse! I mean noticeably more quiet than mine. I'm un sure if it being higher with a shorty front bumper would change the sound, maybe it's more open. Less surrounding things for the sound to bounce off. I don't know but.... (I feel I'm grasping a bit here but who knows?) it was definitely quiet. His Jeep was also a June 12 build like mine. I could not see his head date. But I'm assuming it's similar to mine.
So now I'm a bit more concerned. And as I recently posted the sooner you get this issue the better. So maybe my next move is at the dealer which I dread! I hate asking for anything when I know the other party has no time for speculation. One more thing I should add, my motor sounds exactly the same now as when I bought it. So if it's bad, it's been bad since day one, which I would not think symptoms would have shown up that early. Well, that my story. Suggestions, opinions
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:11 AM   #4033
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Ok, where to begin.... For starters my tech info. 2012 JKU (Altitude Edition , but that's irrelevant, I think) Anyway, Jeep build date is June 12 and Julian head date is 1062, automatic with 6000 miles on it. My head clearly does not make the new design cutoff date of 2062.
So, I have always and still remain in– different to this problem in the sense that if I get the dreaded "tick" then it will be fixed. I have said since day one (check my posts) that this motor ticks like a "singer sewing machine". I was paranoid at first but in time I slowly stopped worrying about it. Hell , I even started the "ticking Altitude thread" (karma, lol)
I've kept up with this thread daily, feeling that if/when I get the issue I will be better informed at the dealership /stealership.
So with all that being said I saw a buddy today who saw my jeep when I first bought it, he liked it and went to the same dealer and bought one too. He went with a JK 4 door with a dealer done lift kit 35's (may or may not be relevant). With a manual transmission. While talking to him today I thought this may be a good opportunity to hear another 2012 run, I had him start it and ...... Wow! Quiet as a church mouse! I mean noticeably more quiet than mine. I'm un sure if it being higher with a shorty front bumper would change the sound, maybe it's more open. Less surrounding things for the sound to bounce off. I don't know but.... (I feel I'm grasping a bit here but who knows?) it was definitely quiet. His Jeep was also a June 12 build like mine. I could not see his head date. But I'm assuming it's similar to mine.
So now I'm a bit more concerned. And as I recently posted the sooner you get this issue the better. So maybe my next move is at the dealer which I dread! I hate asking for anything when I know the other party has no time for speculation. One more thing I should add, my motor sounds exactly the same now as when I bought it. So if it's bad, it's been bad since day one, which I would not think symptoms would have shown up that early. Well, that my story. Suggestions, opinions
I hate quoting myself but I'm tired and forgot some important points. I don't feel my engine ticks loud per say, just louder than the comparison motor. Secondly, I have never thrown a code, or felt misfires or anything out of the ordinary. And my mileage has not really changed but for winter blend gas. I know some have. stated that's a symptom. That's it, that's all.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:20 AM   #4034
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Deleting the loop with an aftermarket Y pipe SHOULDN'T (LOL) affect the warranty since it would be considered after the "cat". aFe makes one, but is the equal exhaust length necessary with the VVT on the 3.6?
equal exhaust length shouldn't be necessary since the computer should be able to add or subtract fuel from 1 bank as needed.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:43 AM   #4035
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The problem is way higher in Wranglers, and waay higher on the loop side. If the loop has nothing to do with it then heat differential between right and left side should be nil with the new head, and that can be checked with a laser thermometer the way Armaghroadman did.

Since the left side head is usually the only one replaced, with the redesigned coolant flow it should be somewhat cooler even if the loop contributes to heat build on the left side. But if the loop is contributing it still won't be equal.

Checking the difference on a vehicle with both heads replaced with "C" left side, and "D" right side would also be informative. If it turns out heat on the left is still higher, the loop is still in the loop

If that turns out to be the case, ideally we'd see a replacement of both heads, and a redesign of the exhaust system to move the cats back out of the engine compartment, and doing away with the loop entirely. But we already know Crysler is going to spend as little time/money on this problem as possible.
You bring up some good points. What I'd be interested in knowing is per 1,000 vehicles sold, Wranglers, GS's, and Mini vans, which are more prone to the tick % wise. We are almost positive the problem is heat related, maybe the loop plays in. A lot of people early on were shocked to see it. If it is part of the problem Chrysler better get back to the drawing board or they might start seeing AC heads going bad.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:22 AM   #4036
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The snow on the left side of my hood melts faster than the right and in a larger surface area. Its my scientific approach to saying yeah its hotter on the left side.
hey, at least your opinion is based on fact!
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:48 AM   #4037
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Originally Posted by Deepjeep1371 View Post
Ok, where to begin.... For starters my tech info. 2012 JKU (Altitude Edition , but that's irrelevant, I think) Anyway, Jeep build date is June 12 and Julian head date is 1062, automatic with 6000 miles on it. My head clearly does not make the new design cutoff date of 2062.
So, I have always and still remain in– different to this problem in the sense that if I get the dreaded "tick" then it will be fixed. I have said since day one (check my posts) that this motor ticks like a "singer sewing machine". I was paranoid at first but in time I slowly stopped worrying about it. Hell , I even started the "ticking Altitude thread" (karma, lol)
I've kept up with this thread daily, feeling that if/when I get the issue I will be better informed at the dealership /stealership.
So with all that being said I saw a buddy today who saw my jeep when I first bought it, he liked it and went to the same dealer and bought one too. He went with a JK 4 door with a dealer done lift kit 35's (may or may not be relevant). With a manual transmission. While talking to him today I thought this may be a good opportunity to hear another 2012 run, I had him start it and ...... Wow! Quiet as a church mouse! I mean noticeably more quiet than mine. I'm un sure if it being higher with a shorty front bumper would change the sound, maybe it's more open. Less surrounding things for the sound to bounce off. I don't know but.... (I feel I'm grasping a bit here but who knows?) it was definitely quiet. His Jeep was also a June 12 build like mine. I could not see his head date. But I'm assuming it's similar to mine.
So now I'm a bit more concerned. And as I recently posted the sooner you get this issue the better. So maybe my next move is at the dealer which I dread! I hate asking for anything when I know the other party has no time for speculation. One more thing I should add, my motor sounds exactly the same now as when I bought it. So if it's bad, it's been bad since day one, which I would not think symptoms would have shown up that early. Well, that my story. Suggestions, opinions
My May 2012 build has a head date of 1162. Jeep built before yours with a head 10 days older? Same mileage and other than injector noise, its quiet.
IMO I would keep driving it until a symptom shows up: CEL, loss of power, definite ticking, etc and then take it in.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:34 AM   #4038
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You bring up some good points. What I'd be interested in knowing is per 1,000 vehicles sold, Wranglers, GS's, and Mini vans, which are more prone to the tick % wise. We are almost positive the problem is heat related, maybe the loop plays in. A lot of people early on were shocked to see it. If it is part of the problem Chrysler better get back to the drawing board or they might start seeing AC heads going bad.
The data you would like to see would be informative, which is exactly the reason Crysler won't be publishing it. They tipped their hand early in this process by taking a triage approach, which clearly indicates this issue is potentially too expensive to swallow whole. Which then infers the problem is systemic, ie, desgn flaw affecting all heads before the redesign.

But I think Bob Lee was getting at the truth in a round-a-bout way when he said certain driving conditions are more likely to cause head failure. He just didn't want to admit those conditions were the ones that cause greater heat, because that leads quickly to the conclusion all early heads are flawed.

Thought experiment: what if Crysler had come out early on and said, "It has come to our attention that the Pentastar head has a flaw which can lead to premature failure under high heat conditions. Unfortunately the percent of failure against total is a moving target going the wrong way, so we can't predict with accuracy what final percent of total are likely to fail prematurely. And since Crysler can't afford to replace all these early heads already in the field, we are obliged to take a triage approach, and replace heads as they fail. Thank you for your understanding."

Yeah that would work - Fiat stock price in the toilet, field day for the lawyers...
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:34 AM   #4039
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I would like to see an exhaust temp reading from both sides of a JK that hasn't had the head replaced, and compare that with the measurements I got Sun. on mine.
This would show that the revised head is lowering the temp, and somewhat acknowledge that excessive heat is the issue, compounded by the loop.
Either way, as soon as an alternative is on the market, and proven not to have any detrimental affect, I am deleting the damn thing..
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:49 AM   #4040
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The loop makes the exhaust equal length to promote scavenging and improve torque at moderate rpms.

I also can't stand the way it's (loop) done, but I also don't think the loop is causing any heat issues. There is a full catalytic converter strapped directly to each head putting off twice the amount of heat that any exhaust pipe does.

I still believe it's due to the internal exhaust manifold and insufficient cooling from poor water jacket design. This leads to high levels of heat soak which stresses materials and causes failure.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:50 AM   #4041
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The data you would like to see would be informative, which is exactly the reason Crysler won't be publishing it. They tipped their hand early in this process by taking a triage approach, which clearly indicates this issue is potentially too expensive to swallow whole. Which then infers the problem is systemic, ie, desgn flaw affecting all heads before the redesign.

But I think Bob Lee was getting at the truth in a round-a-bout way when he said certain driving conditions are more likely to cause head failure. He just didn't want to admit those conditions were the ones that cause greater heat, because that leads quickly to the conclusion all early heads are flawed.

Thought experiment: what if Crysler had come out early on and said, "It has come to our attention that the Pentastar head has a flaw which can lead to premature failure under high heat conditions. Unfortunately the percent of failure against total is a moving target going the wrong way, so we can't predict with accuracy what final percent of total are likely to fail prematurely. And since Crysler can't afford to replace all these early heads already in the field, we are obliged to take a triage approach, and replace heads as they fail. Thank you for your understanding."

Yeah that would work - Fiat stock price in the toilet, field day for the lawyers...

You nailed it. Until forced by a court order, or a recall, Chrysler will deal with the issue one head at a time. We'll know eventually when the engine is fixed by websites like this one, don't look to Chrysler for an answer.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:01 AM   #4042
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The loop makes the exhaust equal length to promote scavenging and improve torque at moderate rpms.

I also can't stand the way it's (loop) done, but I also don't think the loop is causing any heat issues. There is a full catalytic converter strapped directly to each head putting off twice the amount of heat that any exhaust pipe does.

I still believe it's due to the internal exhaust manifold and insufficient cooling from poor water jacket design. This leads to high levels of heat soak which stresses materials and causes failure.
If that's the case, then wouldn't both sides be reading the same? They both have converters in the same place..
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:02 AM   #4043
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Also, I've put some mileage (1000+) on mine since having both heads replaced and thought I'd report my experience.

-Engine is definitely quieter.

-Idle is smoother.

-Mileage unchanged. (mine wasn't bad to begin with)

-Seems to have a bit more power. (butt dyno)

-Doesn't ping on 87 octane. (probably due to cooler weather, will have to see when it warms up)

-Doesn't appear to leak. (yet)
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:04 AM   #4044
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If that's the case, then wouldn't both sides be reading the same? They both have converters in the same place..
Should, but if the driver side head isn't cooling as well as the passenger side that will raise cylinder temp and subsequently exhaust temps. go up.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:22 AM   #4045
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The loop makes the exhaust equal length to promote scavenging and improve torque at moderate rpms.

I also can't stand the way it's (loop) done, but I also don't think the loop is causing any heat issues. There is a full catalytic converter strapped directly to each head putting off twice the amount of heat that any exhaust pipe does.

I still believe it's due to the internal exhaust manifold and insufficient cooling from poor water jacket design. This leads to high levels of heat soak which stresses materials and causes failure.
I question the logic of attaching a catalytic converter to the head. They generate a tremendous amount of heat. Not a great idea if your using an internal exhaust manifold. I don't see the loop being a big problem either.
Hopefully the redesign will be a good fix, but I would feel better if they moved the converters.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #4046
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I would like to see an exhaust temp reading from both sides of a JK that hasn't had the head replaced, and compare that with the measurements I got Sun. on mine.
This would show that the revised head is lowering the temp, and somewhat acknowledge that excessive heat is the issue, compounded by the loop.
Either way, as soon as an alternative is on the market, and proven not to have any detrimental affect, I am deleting the damn thing..
I missed that you have already had your (drivers side?) head replaced. If so it means it's unlikely what ever is causing the heat issue is limited to cooling circuit design in the head. If that's all it was, and you only had one side replaced, that side would be running cooler than the other side, not hotter.

Anyway, since the failures are usually on the loop side it has IMO always been unlikely that only head design is at fault here. I think we have an "overdetermined condition" where a variety of factors come into play simultaenously, creating a "sum is greater than it's parts" thing. These are the ones that escape notice at the design stage.

I think the cats proximity to the blocks are a problem, exerbated on the left side by the loop. Since the loop is pretty far back the addition to engine compartment heat would be mitigated at speed. That is why I'm guessing the worst case condtion is prolonged stop and go driving on hot days.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #4047
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The heat issue is possibly related to flow direction of the coolant. I would guess that the passenger side gets the flow directly from the pump and then it goes on to the drivers side.

The coolant can only remove so much heat before returning to the radiator to cool. Perhaps it's just to hot when it gets to the drivers side to remove the amount of heat present.

It's just a guess, but it's more likely than a loop in the pipe causing the difference.

In fact, weren't people getting new water pumps at the beginning of this thread? I wonder if a higher flow water pump would help? And, If the pumps being installed currently didn't get a redesign?
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:40 AM   #4048
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Well the direction of coolant flow is defiantly passenger then driver side. I went out and looked at mine and the coolant return is on the front of the drivers head.

Seems possible.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:25 PM   #4049
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Anyone know if there's lower temp thermostat option for the Pentastar and if it could help and not throw a code? (maybe a 180???)
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:59 PM   #4050
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I am at dealership now for this issue....so far no code thrown but they are checking It out and not giving me a hard time....they said I'm the 3rd one they have seen but the other two threw codes.

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