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Old 05-13-2013, 06:19 PM   #4831
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Okay, I found his post...

I believe he has a stuck intake valve and not bad exhaust seats. While still not good, it's not the same problem that all of the AA and AB heads are having.

I still don't think there is a documented case of a bad AC head (exhaust seats)



PET77:

"Also here is another image documenting what is my problem P0306 - stuck valve..."


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Old 05-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #4832
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PET77 made it quite clear that he had the typical Pentastar head failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PET77 View Post
There might have been some misunderstanding on this one.

The fact is I had/have CEL - P0306 and the problem was/is with the failing valve seats on 6th cylinder (exhaust valves to be specific.
The only question is whether his head was an AB or AC. His dealer said it was the newest head. His build date in Sep. 2012 should have been an AC head. ACs were built beginning late July on and used on at least some JKs built in Aug. 2012.

It sure looks very likely to me that he had a failure on an AC head....

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Old 05-13-2013, 07:01 PM   #4833
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If it was an AC head failure, hopefully it was an isolated incident!
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:40 PM   #4834
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Originally Posted by legitposter View Post
Keep in mind that a large number, probably 90%, of the 'A' heads will fail before the end of the vehicle's life. Chrysler's 1%-2% claim is only based on the initial warranty period that actually affects Chrysler. True, only 1%-2% will fail within that time period. The rest will fail later on.

Though your head may not immediately break, they are all 'living on the edge' and any day could be your day. Try to get it fixed!
Wait what? Ahhh nm, I noticed your screen name.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:26 PM   #4835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legitposter View Post
Keep in mind that a large number, probably 90%, of the 'A' heads will fail before the end of the vehicle's life. Chrysler's 1%-2% claim is only based on the initial warranty period that actually affects Chrysler. True, only 1%-2% will fail within that time period. The rest will fail later on.

Though your head may not immediately break, they are all 'living on the edge' and any day could be your day. Try to get it fixed!
care to share your crystal ball? YOu must make a lot of money betting at the horse races and sporting events being able to tell the future like that.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:12 PM   #4836
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At least we know the problem is better than what it was last year. As Up Hill Bill pointed out, the flood gates had opened this time last year with failures on 12's. Fast forward 1 year and we may have 1 confirmed case of the same problem on a '13. I just can't imagine that Chrysler can't figure out how to make a solid head for their seemingly primary power plant for years to come.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:21 PM   #4837
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care to share your crystal ball? YOu must make a lot of money betting at the horse races and sporting events being able to tell the future like that.
Where in the world do you get these numbers? Please do tell me specifically where you got these numbers?
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:26 PM   #4838
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Reminds me of j0nx.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:34 PM   #4839
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Where in the world do you get these numbers? Please do tell me specifically where you got these numbers?
what numbers?
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:37 PM   #4840
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what numbers?
That 90% will fail.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:42 PM   #4841
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That 90% will fail.
that was not me that posted that. that was legitposter. I asked him if I could use his crystal ball. this thread moves pretty fast you got to try and keep up lol.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:44 PM   #4842
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that was not me that posted that. that was legitposter. I asked him if I could use his crystal ball.
Sorry!! I was asking him. I must have swiped you by accident.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:05 PM   #4843
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Guys, just think about it. If the failures are randomly timed then all heads with the same defect can fail at any time. Given enough time, they will all fail. Chrysler's 1%-2% is only based on the amount they'll have to fix themselves under warranty.

This is why I feel bad for the people who have affected heads that DO NOT fail because, when warranty is up, the failure will eventually occur.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:08 PM   #4844
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Anyone's guess between 0.00001% and 100% is fair game. It's just the interweb. If Chrysler has 90% failures and doesn't cover them outside of warranty, we won't have to worry about it, because I don't think Chrysler would survive something like that. 1-2 million owners at their throats!
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:19 PM   #4845
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Guys, just think about it. If the failures are randomly timed then all heads with the same defect can fail at any time. Given enough time, they will all fail. Chrysler's 1%-2% is only based on the amount they'll have to fix themselves under warranty.

This is why I feel bad for the people who have affected heads that DO NOT fail because, when warranty is up, the failure will eventually occur.
given enough time, gasoline engines will be obsolete and it won't matter anyway. I would say it is more likely that 90% of the 12 3.6L will live out a useful life of many miles before they have a head failure. Besides It is only a head replacement which is not a big dollar repair.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:47 PM   #4846
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I think you guys missed my point......A stuck intake valve is an anomaly, it's not a design flaw or machining flaw. Nothing is going to be perfect and parts will fail, yes even on the new designed cylinder head.

My point is....so far....it looks like the AC cylinder head has addressed and fixed the exhaust valve seat problem that was causing 99.9 percent of the ticking and subsequent cylinder misfires that required a new head. Now will it remain problem free? Only time will tell.

As far as my opinion (I know, nobody asked LOL) I feel the problem is a design flaw and therefore, every AA or AB head out there will eventually fail, it's just a matter of time.

Edit: I must have missed where PET77 said it was an exhaust valve seat problem, the post of his I cut and pasted says a stuck valve and the picture shows a stuck intake valve......
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:49 AM   #4847
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Not sure I said it was an exhaust valve, all i said it threw a P0306 code, just as other cars do.

Anyway, my question: at the beginning it seemed, that some cars had problems with both heads (or at least that in some cases both heads were changed). Has this changed since, or is the other head still possible fail too?
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:51 AM   #4848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Up Hill Bill View Post
PET77 made it quite clear that he had the typical Pentastar head failure.



The only question is whether his head was an AB or AC. His dealer said it was the newest head. His build date in Sep. 2012 should have been an AC head. ACs were built beginning late July on and used on at least some JKs built in Aug. 2012.

It sure looks very likely to me that he had a failure on an AC head....
I'd say so too.
Since we're pretty sure it was an AC head that failed, the code is the same as the codes the AA and AC heads had when they failed we can't be sure the AC head is the fix either. I'd give it another couple of months before we can deem this an isolated case.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:02 PM   #4849
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Originally Posted by legitposter View Post
Guys, just think about it. If the failures are randomly timed then all heads with the same defect can fail at any time. Given enough time, they will all fail. Chrysler's 1%-2% is only based on the amount they'll have to fix themselves under warranty.

This is why I feel bad for the people who have affected heads that DO NOT fail because, when warranty is up, the failure will eventually occur.
Not necessarily.

If you warm the engine thoroughly each time before driving off, stay feather light on the throttle and always keep it at 2000RPM or less, it'll most likely hold up

Why do you think some people start throwing a code at 2k miles and others at 15k miles? The weight of your right foot certainly has a big role.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:11 PM   #4850
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A lead tech at a dealership told me that Chrysler thinks one of the determining factors is "driving style" as it relates to engine operation, so there may be some truth to this. I better start driving it harder...I'm too conservative in general. Either way, this is a design issue, and they do not seem to be willing to really redesign things....just beef it up.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:42 PM   #4851
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Not sure I said it was an exhaust valve, all i said it threw a P0306 code, just as other cars do.

Anyway, my question: at the beginning it seemed, that some cars had problems with both heads (or at least that in some cases both heads were changed). Has this changed since, or is the other head still possible fail too?
That code is a misfire on cylinder 6. There are many reasons why an engine will misfire, the exhaust seat problem being one of them (obviously). However if you look at the photo you posted, you can clearly see an intake valve stuck open. This will also cause an misfire and thus throw the code.

So, it's possible that was the cause of your code and not bad exhaust valve seats. You may want to ask your dealer again what exactly was wrong with your cylinder head. If the exhaust seats were bad then you had two things going on simultaneously because there is no doubt the intake valve is stuck open in your picture. Those valves (the two intakes) should open and close together so if one is closed and the other open, there's a problem.
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:08 PM   #4852
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given enough time, gasoline engines will be obsolete and it won't matter anyway. I would say it is more likely that 90% of the 12 3.6L will live out a useful life of many miles before they have a head failure. Besides It is only a head replacement which is not a big dollar repair.
lol it's gonna take a looong time before that happens bud. The gasoline engine will vastly improve in the next few years.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:35 PM   #4853
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A lead tech at a dealership told me that Chrysler thinks one of the determining factors is "driving style" as it relates to engine operation, so there may be some truth to this. I better start driving it harder...I'm too conservative in general. Either way, this is a design issue, and they do not seem to be willing to really redesign things....just beef it up.
"Driving style, bad gasoline" sound like excuses to me. Ford launched the Model T in what, 1908? So for 105 years cars has been mass produced. The internal combustion engine should not be having these issues in 2013. As long as they have fixed or do fix the problem, I will be happy.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:07 PM   #4854
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A lead tech at a dealership told me that Chrysler thinks one of the determining factors is "driving style" as it relates to engine operation, so there may be some truth to this. I better start driving it harder...I'm too conservative in general. Either way, this is a design issue, and they do not seem to be willing to really redesign things....just beef it up.
When I picked mine up with 7 miles on it in May '12, i was well aware of the ticking problem. I pulled the hood when inspecting and did notice that there was a definite ticking from the driver's side. It was so feint, but it wasn't in the same frequency as the injectors. I remember telling the salesman that I guess they all ticked a little. The noise became really noticeable around 1000-1600 miles. I had it noted at the dealer at around 1500 miles (barely 4 tanks of gas through it). I guess I got lucky and got the defect early, but it totally discredits the driving habit/gas quality excuse.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:21 PM   #4855
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Has to be design flaw and not a bad run. Bad run wouldn't warrant a redesign. Still haven't found any proof that the ac head has failed in this regard.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:44 PM   #4856
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2013 JK Rubi. Step/12 built date. Only 300mi on her.. but quite and no noticeable tick. I'm ase cert and own my own shop.. so if it shows up... I'll catch it. Now the throwout bearing on the other hand... hahahah
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:41 PM   #4857
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"Driving style, bad gasoline" sound like excuses to me.
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I guess I got lucky and got the defect early, but it totally discredits the driving habit/gas quality excuse.
They're not excuses, they simply explain if and when the valve may fail. Driving style (and quality of gas) are two factors that will influence whether the small defect will eventually lead to a valve failure, and the time it takes before the valve fails.

Like I mentioned above, if you always warm the motor up before driving, are really easy on the throttle, keep the RPM's low and use quality gas, the valve may never fail despite the defect in the valve guide.

On the flipside, if you never warm the motor up before driving, have a lead foot, always run the RPM's up and use crappy gas, the valve will fail very quickly.

Hence, "driving style" and "bad gas" are two contributing factors. The spectrum of "driving style" is between those two extremes I just mentioned, hence you see the valve failure anywhere from 1k miles to 20k miles or more. Going easy on the motor will prolong the life of that valve, while beating on the motor will cause it to fail quickly, resulting in a misfire and throwing a code.

I have an early build 2012 with the defective head, so it was ticking from day 1. But I warm the motor up before driving off, I'm pretty easy on the throttle, and I very rarely run it past 2500RPM. I'm at 7k miles and the ticking has not gotten any worse. If I was beating the crap out the motor, the valve would've failed a long time ago. Whenever I make full throttle runs and wind it out to redline (to burn the carbon deposits off), the ticking becomes noticeably louder at idle.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:20 AM   #4858
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Pure speculation.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:34 AM   #4859
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Just some common sense

It's a simple mechanical device, there aren't any unicorns and fairy dust in there (despite what Chrysler may have you believe).
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:39 AM   #4860
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Not sure what head is on my 2013, build date of March 13th. We have 680 miles on it and the check engine light came on with a code of p0306. Dealer in Yucca Valley Ca checked it out and said the head needed to be changed. Never noticed any ticking, but also did not drive it long enough either. Hopefully the replacement head will correct any issue. Just hate having to have this kind of work done with such low miles. Glad warranty will take care of it. Hope this is not a sign of things to come!!!

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