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Old 04-18-2012, 09:01 AM   #691
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I was planning to buy a new JK Sport in maybe June or July, but monitoring this thread has made me kind of reconsider. But then I though "What the heck. If it turns out to be a really troublesome vehicle I can always get relief under the Lemon Law."

As I live in Kentucky, that prompted me to Google-up info on the Kentucky Lemon Law:

Kentucky Lemon Law - Auto Warranties, Complaints and Claims - U.S. BBB

Most of the links that Google returned were actually lawyers advertising their services, but I did find this Better Business Bureau link that I posted above. If you go to the link, if seems that participation in the Lemon Law provisions is VOLUNTARY by manufacturer, and that Chrysler/Jeep is not listed!

I also Googled for Ohio's Lemon Law, because although I live in Kentucky, I live very close to Cincinnati Ohio, and would possibly buy from an Ohio dealership. The same list of manufacturers apparently apply to Ohio's Lemon Law as well.

Does anybody have any guidance regarding this?

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Old 04-18-2012, 09:08 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by tpelle View Post
I was planning to buy a new JK Sport in maybe June or July, but monitoring this thread has made me kind of reconsider. But then I though "What the heck. If it turns out to be a really troublesome vehicle I can always get relief under the Lemon Law."

As I live in Kentucky, that prompted me to Google-up info on the Kentucky Lemon Law:

Kentucky Lemon Law - Auto Warranties, Complaints and Claims - U.S. BBB

Most of the links that Google returned were actually lawyers advertising their services, but I did find this Better Business Bureau link that I posted above. If you go to the link, if seems that participation in the Lemon Law provisions is VOLUNTARY by manufacturer, and that Chrysler/Jeep is not listed!

Does anybody have any comments on this?
Not sure whether it's voluntary but I wouldn't just bank on the Lemon Law bailing you out if you find yourself in a world of trouble. If that were the case, everyone who's ever had a warranty claim would be crying their vehicle was a lemon.

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Old 04-18-2012, 09:24 AM   #693
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Not sure whether it's voluntary but I wouldn't just bank on the Lemon Law bailing you out if you find yourself in a world of trouble. If that were the case, everyone who's ever had a warranty claim would be crying their vehicle was a lemon.
Well, after I made my post above, I went back and Googled-up the actual Kentucky Lemon Law as it appears on Kentucky's web site:

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/367-00/840.PDF

First, there is no wording in the law that makes participation by any manufacturer "voluntary". There is no list of manufacturers to which the law specifically applies, nor is there one of those exempt. From that I conclude (But I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.)

Secondly, the law is pretty specific about what has to happen to "qualify" for protection under the lemon law.

So, I understand that it would still be a MAJOR problem and inconvenience, but my concerns may have been somewhat overblown.

However, the particular Jeep dealer that I would likely buy from has a corporate presence both in Ohio and in Kentucky. I would probably make it a point to buy from the Kentucky dealership.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:31 AM   #694
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There's no voluntary participation in lemon law. If the vehicle goes in 3 times for the same repair and is still not fixed then it's a lemon. If it's in the shop for more than 30 days then it's a lemon. What Chrysler wants or does is inconsequential to the law. If they refuse to buy it back in good faith from the customer after arbitration and after requisite chances to fix the problem then you get a lawyer and make them. State law is very clear about this and Chrysler really has no legal wiggle room if the customer keeps their repair records and wishes to pursue a buy back. They also have to pay your legal bills if they lose and with the law so cut and dried and with states being so supportive of consumers in this aspect they most always lose. Needless to say, Chrysler does not want to go to court if they can absolutely avoid it and know their customer is in the right, which most usually are.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #695
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Just wanted to chime back in here. I posted one of the ticking videos a while back. I stopped by the local dealer and got the "all normal" I've since put on a few more miles still ticking away and haven't gotten a CEL or misfire yet. I've got 8800 miles at this point.

I dunno if I want my head replaced really. It seems to be doing OK and has another 90K worth of warranty for me to be concerned.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:58 AM   #696
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The real test is this- what will Chrysler do about this? If they want younger people and Jeep enthusiasts to buy new Chrysler vehicles, they have to address this well. I mean, this is the main complaint about newer Jeeps..that they are nowhere near as reliable as the Toyotas and Nissans. To save money, they can make the wrong decision that will cost them dearly since this will start getting out. They should make this a priority since Jeep enthusiasts are the most loyal. I'll watch for this as well. My other two vehicles include a 2006 Subaru Forester with 92,000 miles and a 2005 V8 4x4 4Runner with 75,000. The Subaru has needed front brakes- that's it. The 4Runner- nothing yet. I am religious about oil and fluid changes and they both go off-road, though not to any crazy trails like you guys go through...not true offroading.

I hope Chrysler does the right thing and fixes this right. I am hopeful but enough people need to start contacting higher levels at Chrysler somehow.
I do agree skimping out on the quality or the cost of parts does not save them money long term, warranties will just get the best of them as these defunct parts age. Let's all keep in mind that I almost always hear a nasty tickety-tickety from cars like subarus and toyotas. Yet, you hardly hear complaints about that noise. The only engine I have EVER had that sounded just as good at 235K miles as it did at 12 miles was my 5.0L ford V8. That was an old-technology pushrod engine, no VVT, no DOHC, nothing. It's very likely that most of this ticking noise is simply a consequence of the various advances that newer engines now take advantage of. There was a post in this thread from a pentastar engineer that stated this was an inherently noisy engine. I'm not sure if this is true, but I hear drivetrain tick from my pentastar and am not one bit concerned.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:05 AM   #697
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I went through a lemon law case here in California over a 2006 Mazda 3 hatch. It took almost 3 years battling their lawyers. They would make a offer, we would counter and they would wait until their last day to accept or deny. They did this many times. Finally we got to depositions and it never made it to court. I won, 3 years later. The whole time I still had t pay on the loan and insurance with reg. Lemon law cases are never as cut and dry as it seems. Lawyers drag it way out so you will get frustrated and accept a low offer. A buyout is not possible until all their lowball offers get turned down. It sucked.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:48 AM   #698
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Question for those who have the ticking.. Anybody losing compression?? Any loss of performance???
Big time loss in performance here and getting worse everyday. Struggled going up hills on the highway in 4th the other day at 2500 rpms wouldnt accelerate with the throtle pinned. Have taken it in two different times and after the usual two minutes test drive by the lead mechanic i got the same response that its performing as designed. Started ticking and running like crap around 2,500 miles and is Currently at 5,800. 7/11 Built date and tuesday it goes in again. Maybe they will actually fix it this time seeing as they have two other 12's sitting in their lot waiting on parts for the head replacement.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:48 AM   #699
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Depends on the state as I said. Virginia is not like that. It has one of the best lemon laws in the nation. Cali obviously does not.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:07 PM   #700
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I do agree skimping out on the quality or the cost of parts does not save them money long term, warranties will just get the best of them as these defunct parts age. Let's all keep in mind that I almost always hear a nasty tickety-tickety from cars like subarus and toyotas. Yet, you hardly hear complaints about that noise. The only engine I have EVER had that sounded just as good at 235K miles as it did at 12 miles was my 5.0L ford V8. That was an old-technology pushrod engine, no VVT, no DOHC, nothing. It's very likely that most of this ticking noise is simply a consequence of the various advances that newer engines now take advantage of. There was a post in this thread from a pentastar engineer that stated this was an inherently noisy engine. I'm not sure if this is true, but I hear drivetrain tick from my pentastar and am not one bit concerned.
Had a 2005 STi that lasted 117,000 before meeting its untimely death on April 6th when it was destroyed by some inattentive assjack. I would go through drive-thrus such as the one at the bank and I could hear the sound of the engine ricocheting off the brick walls. The engine was always on the noisy side as far as some ticking. It never lost power, never burned ate an ounce of oil, never flashed a CEL, etc. The lifts were always noisy.

I have a 1994 Camaro with an LT1 in it and those lifters are noisy as well.

FWIW, I'm excited to say I got back from the Jeep stealership not even an hour ago. I just dropped a $500 deposit down on an order for a silver Rubicon Unlimited.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:11 PM   #701
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:16 PM   #702
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Im not so well versed about the pentastar, and my Rubi has the previous engine (3.8L), but when I bought it back in Dec '11 it had no ticking at all that I noticed. Now, after only 5300mi that I've put on it, its just getting worse.
My Dad had an '84 commanche, and that was when I knew I wanted a Jeep...but not with this issue.

What a bittersweet situation
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:16 PM   #703
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Thought I would follow up and post my end experience with the ticking. Originally took my JK in January 30th for the same ticking noise I have heard on most of the videos posted. Service department agreed that the ticking wasn't normal after comparing it to another JK.

First thing they tried(this is straight off my invoice) Tappet, Valve - Replace 3.6 liter engine - Left Bank - One or all. (A) --- They also changed the oil verifying the right weight was being used. The tappet didn't fix anything but the tech and manager noted excessive metal dusting so they pushed it up the line with Chrysler to see about a solution.

About that time Snailpower started this thread and I started to follow it.

In the end they replaced my whole engine. Tried for awhile to get a long block from the factory, but after a month+ of no go they just ordered a short block, new heads, etc...

My jeep is back to normal now. Sounds like it did the day I drove it off the lot. Most noise I hear now is the AC compressor and the injectors. Also as time wore on while they looked for parts my idle got a little rougher and maybe I felt a slight dip in power but I did not notice any change in gas mileage.

Good luck to those still affected and I am glad this forum exist the knowledge and support is awesome.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:17 PM   #704
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Does anyone know if there aftermarket heads available?
I am not under a warranty because I am not the original owner, so my option is to either take the stock ones to a machine shop and do a complete rebuild (which is my plan, adding a port and polish for grins), or completely replace them with fresh ones. Thing is, if the stock ones are crap, I don't wanna put *new* crappy ones in and be back to square one...and out the cash.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:31 PM   #705
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Does anyone know if there aftermarket heads available?
I am not under a warranty because I am not the original owner, so my option is to either take the stock ones to a machine shop and do a complete rebuild (which is my plan, adding a port and polish for grins), or completely replace them with fresh ones. Thing is, if the stock ones are crap, I don't wanna put *new* crappy ones in and be back to square one...and out the cash.
The factory warrant is good for 5 Years or 100,000 miles. It does not matter if you are the first owner or the fifth owner. As long as it falls in the 5 Years/100,000 miles you are covered.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:02 PM   #706
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Wow, seriously?
The dealers I went to (two different ones) are claiming 3yr/36k since I am the 2nd owner

I thought the 5/100 was still applicable, too.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:49 PM   #707
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So I read through about 11 pages and had to stop. What is the word on 10-2011 build dates?
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:02 PM   #708
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Wow, seriously?
The dealers I went to (two different ones) are claiming 3yr/36k since I am the 2nd owner

I thought the 5/100 was still applicable, too.
I will check with my cousin. He is one of the owners of the dealership I bought from. Also, me and the service manager there are friends. I will ask him as well and update.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:30 PM   #709
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My first jeep was a used 2009 JKU. One of the reasons I bought a 2012 was because only the original owner gets the 5/100,000 mile powertrain warranty.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:31 PM   #710
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I've got a light ticking sound on mine too. Nothing as aggressive as some of the videos on here. But you can hear it especially as I move the phone closer to the engine on the driver side, and it gets faint when I move to the passenger. That leads me to believe that it's isolated to one side and likely the ticking problem. Not going to worry much about it. I'll follow all the great info in here and next time I'm at the dealer have them check it out.

Just going to enjoy my Jeep for now.

Mine was built 7-20-11 @ 1900. 19 hours after UHB. And his Jeep arrived in Cali more than 3 weeks before mine arrived in NJ. Go figure.

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Old 04-19-2012, 06:24 AM   #711
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Wow, seriously?
The dealers I went to (two different ones) are claiming 3yr/36k since I am the 2nd owner

I thought the 5/100 was still applicable, too.
Have you already got more than 36K miles on a 2012?
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:49 AM   #712
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Mine is an 08 JKR, and I have just turned 60,180, but I have only had it since Dec of last year. Purchased at 55,845 on Dec 15, 2011 and having made two trips to Memphis from Rochester, moving the NY for my job relocation. I've only been wheeling once, and even then it was just a teaser, mudholes were very shallow and more like trail riding really.
It didnt make these sounds at purchase, and didnt start until around 58k.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:21 PM   #713
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Mine is an 08 JKR, and I have just turned 60,180, but I have only had it since Dec of last year. Purchased at 55,845 on Dec 15, 2011 and having made two trips to Memphis from Rochester, moving the NY for my job relocation. I've only been wheeling once, and even then it was just a teaser, mudholes were very shallow and more like trail riding really.
It didnt make these sounds at purchase, and didnt start until around 58k.

You must have one of the early Pentastar engines.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:44 PM   #714
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You must have one of the early Pentastar engines.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:01 PM   #715
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Heh, yeah it seems so.
Ah well, what do ya do?
Old trash, new trash, it's all the same I guess

As for my fledgling wheeling experience, well that was more of a spur of the moment/lack of a better challenge thing lmao!
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:07 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by jeepkingtn
My first jeep was a used 2009 JKU. One of the reasons I bought a 2012 was because only the original owner gets the 5/100,000 mile powertrain warranty.
I just checked with my friend who is the service manager at my cousin's Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership. He said the 5 Year/100,000 mile factory powertrain warranty applies no matter if you are the 1st owner or the 5th owner. The warranty has to be honored. That is per Chrysler policy. You take it to the bank.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:39 PM   #717
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cylinder head gasket on back order

Dropped mine (bought Oct 2011) off at Mall of Georgia Chrysler Dodge Jeep yesterday for 15k mile oil change and check engine light. Never realized if any ticking sound was being emitted before, just check engine light on.
Called dealership later in the day to see what was up and was told that the cylinder head gasket needed to be replaced and its on back order.
Then was told that this dealership does not provide loaner cars... (my first time buying an american car, maybe i just figured stupidly that every dealership does this as a courtesy... i guess not).
Turns out I payed $3k for extended coverage from Performance First which should according to their pamphlet cover a rental for $60/day and max $540. When dealership called them Performance First initially rejected the claim saying that my warranty from them was only a "wrap" coverage since Jeep's Powertrain warranty covers me in this situation and that I'd have to figure out something else.
Then when I called Performance First directly a supervisor was nice enough to do me a favor and cover a rental for max 6 days at $60/day.
Just got done reading through full thread since this morning and have now called and gotten a case number from Jeep/Chrysler directly. They also said that if it wasn't fixed within the 6 days that Performance First covered my rental that they could then appeal or make a request for additional rental days to be covered.
Honestly, I've liked the guys at the dealership since the beginning but this "no loaner car" policy has got me really upset. When I bought the Wrangler I realized I was stepping into a bunch of maintenance issues but its just such a damn cool car... but didn't realize I'd be scrambling to figure out how to get to work and back every day if something went wrong.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:58 PM   #718
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Outstanding!
Thanks cajun! I will look into getting my Rubi into a claim with Chrysler and get them to honor their responsibility!
I will let you all know how it goes as it unfolds, as I sure dont wanna do the rebuild myself
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #719
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Outstanding!
Thanks cajun! I will look into getting my Rubi into a claim with Chrysler and get them to honor their responsibility!
I will let you all know how it goes as it unfolds, as I sure dont wanna do the rebuild myself
Your welcome. Hope everything works in your favor.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:15 PM   #720
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There was a post in this thread from a pentastar engineer that stated this was an inherently noisy engine.
Well, I'm not a Pentastar engineer, just someone who is familiar with modern high-tech thin-cast aluminum engines with plastic intake manifolds and high-lift VVT cams. *All* of them are noisy. Every single one of them. On every single one of them you can hear the valves on close getting slapped against their seats by the strong springs needed to deal with high-lift cams, on every single one of them you can hear a mild "tick" as the cam contacts the roller on the downstroke, on every single one of them you can hear a little "pop" as the intake valve opens and releases the vacuum, on every single one of them you can hear the cam chains rattling around and the VVT adjusters ratcheting, and so forth. It's like putting the soft top on your Jeep after you've had the hard top on it, even with the windows zipped in suddenly you hear the people at the bus stop talking as if they were inside your Jeep, whereas before it was muffled and you didn't notice it. Well, you do away with 300 pounds of iron muffling sounds, and another 30 pounds of intake manifold muffling sound, and it's like that -- you can hear everything in the engine. *Everything*.

Now, on my PARTICULAR '12, August build, I don't hear anything out of the ordinary. That does not, however, mean that *other* people don't have a real problem. Chiseler ain't replacin' heads 'cause they're a charity and nice people, they're replacing heads because they *have* to do so, else they wouldn't do it (there's a *reason* why most professional mechanics refer to it as "Chiseler Corporation" rather than "Chrysler Corporation", Chiseler ain't ever met a problem they didn't try to weasel out of fixing). What it does mean is that if *all* you hear is noise, and it's more of a slap or click than a rap with a hammer, you probably don't actually have a problem -- you *may* have a problem if it sounds like someone's hammering on your engine with a mallet, and you *know* you have a problem when it starts throwing codes, because that means at least one valve is fubar. My *particular* Jeep, thankfully, is doing neither of those.

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