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Old 06-16-2012, 04:00 PM   #1231
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:29 PM   #1232
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You wanna share that?

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Old 06-16-2012, 04:35 PM   #1233
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:39 PM   #1234
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Sure will, for a fellow keeper!
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:28 PM   #1235
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I'm a Jeeper Keeper.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:32 PM   #1236
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Talking

Heh. Some folks shoulda bought a Camry to begin with. Who would buy a loud crude gas guzzler if they wanted a daily driver and not an offroader?

Pass the popcorn...
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:42 PM   #1237
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Well, my August-build 2012 now has a little over 13,000 miles on it. Some comments:

1) There is a very light tick when the engine is cold. It goes away when the engine warms up.
2) The engine appears *very* sensitive to oil viscosity. It wants an oil that's on the thicker side of the 5W30 spec or it is somewhat noisy. When I put Pennzoil Ultra 5W30 in it, I got a light ticking even when the engine was warm until I had around 2,000 miles on the oil and it started thickening up (like most synthetics the Pennzoil uses pour point depressants rather than viscosity improvers, and thus as it wears it gets thicker rather than thinner). Going back to Pennzoil Platinum 5W30 on the next oil change and the engine was no noisier when I got it back than when I took it in to the dealer for the oil change. (I'm having the dealer do my oil changes so there's no question about who is responsible if this turns out to be a problem, they have an "express line" for oil changes while you wait so that's not particularly inconvenient, but I *am* providing 6 quarts of my own oil because I don't want whatever crud is in their vat).
3) It's pretty clear at this point that build date isn't an issue, since my early 2012 Wrangler doesn't have the problem. It appears to be a head supplier issue that crops up seemingly at random where heads that shouldn't have passed QC due to casting flaws (these are thinwall aluminum castings which means that porosity is always an issue) are passed. The nature of the casting flaws is the only thing that is baffling, porosity is the only kind of casting issue that happens randomly as vs. due to a flaw in the mold yet it shouldn't cause this kind of issue unless it causes exhaust gases to get somewhere they're not supposed to be...
4) The heat hypothesis doesn't hold water. *All* Pentastars would have the problem if that was the problem.
5) Regarding head castings, they appear to be identical on all Pentastar engines, whether Wrangler or not. I looked at the change in how the alternator is mounted on the Wrangler vs. how it is mounted on other Pentastars, and it turns out that all the bracket mounts are on the engine front casting, not on the head casting, and the 2011 model Pentastars already had the holes there that the alternator is mounted to in the Wrangler, those are the top mounting bolt holes for the front casting but it is clear they already had provisions to mount something to them (i.e., there was already a wide surface to use for mating with a bolt-on accessory).
6) They really do have over 1,000,000 Pentastar engines on the road now. Remember, Chrysler sells over 500,000 minivans per year, minivans are their true bread-and-butter (they sell about as many minivans as they sell of all Jeep models total), and the Pentastar has been the standard (and only) engine in their minivans since last year.

In short, if there is a widespread head problem it should affect all of Chrysler's vehicles that use the Pentastar, not just the Wrangler, because the heads are identical across all of them. There's probably 1.5 million Pentastars on the road right now and we'd start seeing the problem in Chrysler's bottom line (a rise in warranty claim costs on their required SEC filings) if the problem was more than a casting quality control issue with a certain supplier where certain castings are passed when they shouldn't be. Note that heads are currently the gating factor for Chrysler ramping up Pentastar production -- they were going to make heads at Saltillo but the Mexicans couldn't do it with sufficient quality so they're operating with less capacity than they really need until production can ramp up at Trenton North. So it is unlikely that you're seeing stockpiled heads making it onto current build Wranglers, they are likely heads that were built within a month of the Wrangler being built, because that's how short the pipeline really is. But this also explains why heads that shouldn't pass QC may have passed QC, because of the pressure to make more heads given the fact that they're in short supply...
Your thoughts and comments sound pretty good. Maybe I'm not out of the buying a 2013 game just yet. I'll wait a few months after they're on the road and see if the ticking issue is gone. The idea of them pulling one head on a new engine doesn't sit well with me. I know I won't be happy if that happens, and I would be setting myself up for a loss that is totally avoidable with a little patience on my part.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:49 PM   #1238
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Heh. Some folks shoulda bought a Camry to begin with. Who would buy a loud crude gas guzzler if they wanted a daily driver and not an offroader?

Pass the popcorn...
Maybe he thought he was going to enjoy the Jeep and things just didn't work out. It happens.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:49 PM   #1239
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Heh. Some folks shoulda bought a Camry to begin with. Who would buy a loud crude gas guzzler if they wanted a daily driver and not an offroader?

Pass the popcorn...
No argument here, Tux. It was a mistake for sure for me to buy a Jeep. I had one for 11 years but not as a daily driver. I beat that one up on the trails and I decided I was not going to do that to the new one.

Live and learn, I guess.

I hope this head problem is grossly over-played and is MUCH less common than it appears to be from the posting going on. For those who definitely have the problem, I hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction. For those who do not have the problem, I hope it stays that way.

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Old 06-16-2012, 08:58 PM   #1240
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Tomster,
I do wish you well. Peace of mind is big when big dollars are involved. Quite a leap from a Wrangler to a Camry! Most stop on a Tacoma, FJ, sports car or something. But it sounds like you are sure this time. You certainly should not have reliability issues. Ride in peace!
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:17 PM   #1241
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Just for grins and giggles, I went looking for Fiat warranty cost numbers in the Fiat financial reports. They did rise slightly in 2011 vs 2010, but not by a significant amount. Tentative conclusion -- if there is an issue with the Pentastar that causes an increase in warranty costs vs earlier years, it isn't one that's going to bust the company. (Remember, Chysler is owned by Fiat now, and its numbers are reported in Fiat's numbers).

Oops, Chrysler was re-registered in 2010 and now has separate EDGAR filings.

2010 4Q warranty costs: 1,187 (millions).
2012 1Q warranty costs: 1,220 (millions).

But the 2012 1Q costs are divided across 40% more sales, so that's actually a *decline* in per-vehicle warranty costs. Not seeing any big Pentastar issue there, if there was, it'd be wracking up big numbers.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:29 PM   #1242
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Tomster,
I do wish you well. Peace of mind is big when big dollars are involved. Quite a leap from a Wrangler to a Camry! Most stop on a Tacoma, FJ, sports car or something. But it sounds like you are sure this time. You certainly should not have reliability issues. Ride in peace!
Thanks, G.

I guess I was just having a CRI when I bought the Jeep. (Cranial-Rectal Inversion, or in other words, had my head up my ____).

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Old 06-16-2012, 10:27 PM   #1243
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Thanks, G.

I guess I was just having a CRI when I bought the Jeep. (Cranial-Rectal Inversion, or in other words, had my head up my ____).

Tomster
Yeah, good luck with the Camry. You didn't have "CRI" when you bought the Jeep, you thought you wanted something and you got it. Then, you got it and it just wasn't how you pictured it.

What you probably did was picture this scenario in your head where you'd be on this awesome "no-tops" adventure through some rough terrain to this really scenic overlook with your family for a picnic or something, and then you realized it was just that...a daydream.

Yep, been there, done that, currently doing that. Hopefully, I will get the chance to do just that.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #1244
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Tomster, you still have a couple days to think about it and change your mind.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:38 PM   #1245
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Tomster, you still have a couple days to think about it and change your mind.
Good point, so everybody, let's help Tom change his mind.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:05 PM   #1246
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Good point, so everybody, let's help Tom change his mind.
He's already stated he had cranial rectal insertion so changing his mind would probably involve Pampers or the adult equivalent called Depends.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:30 PM   #1247
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He's already stated he had cranial rectal insertion so changing his mind would probably involve Pampers or the adult equivalent called Depends.
Okay, the words "rectal" and "insertion" in the same sentence...that just doesn't work for me.
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:13 AM   #1248
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I'm sorry to hear that the fear of getting/needing future warranty repair lead you to taking a loss on a 3 month old vehicle that was exhibiting no issue. It is very interesting that you went from a 2-door JK to a Camry. Seems like you are not really sure what you want/need. Hopefully the family sedan works out. Some advice for yah.. DO NOT go on camry forums cuz you will see that they have issues just like every other car out there. You might end up trading it in for a segway. C'yah around.
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:01 AM   #1249
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I'm sorry to hear that the fear of getting/needing future warranty repair lead you to taking a loss on a 3 month old vehicle that was exhibiting no issue. It is very interesting that you went from a 2-door JK to a Camry. Seems like you are not really sure what you want/need. Hopefully the family sedan works out. Some advice for yah.. DO NOT go on camry forums cuz you will see that they have issues just like every other car out there. You might end up trading it in for a segway. C'yah around.
While I haven't been out looking, I can't even imagine what a Camry forum would consist of, as I've never met a Camry enthusiast. While I certainly believe they have their fanbase due to their supposedly great reliability records, as from any other aspect...nope, never met anyone with a passion for the Camry.
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:04 AM   #1250
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Just for grins and giggles, I went looking for Fiat warranty cost numbers in the Fiat financial reports. They did rise slightly in 2011 vs 2010, but not by a significant amount. Tentative conclusion -- if there is an issue with the Pentastar that causes an increase in warranty costs vs earlier years, it isn't one that's going to bust the company. (Remember, Chysler is owned by Fiat now, and its numbers are reported in Fiat's numbers).

Oops, Chrysler was re-registered in 2010 and now has separate EDGAR filings.

2010 4Q warranty costs: 1,187 (millions).
2012 1Q warranty costs: 1,220 (millions).

But the 2012 1Q costs are divided across 40% more sales, so that's actually a *decline* in per-vehicle warranty costs. Not seeing any big Pentastar issue there, if there was, it'd be wracking up big numbers.
I think the warranty costs will have a larger portion for the cars of 2 or more years old, so a 2012 1Q figure will not cover much about cars sold in 2011.
Or if there are other reports or statistics about how the gernal distribution of the warranty costs across the age of cars?
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:56 AM   #1251
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While I haven't been out looking, I can't even imagine what a Camry forum would consist of, as I've never met a Camry enthusiast. While I certainly believe they have their fanbase due to their supposedly great reliability records, as from any other aspect...nope, never met anyone with a passion for the Camry.
about three minutes of research netted me several results.....for the record i was joking and not really sure if a camry forum exists....boy that would be lame. anyways my search netted the following results:

suspension handling issue at highway speed
clunking sound from suspension at low speed stops
major issue with factory installed michelin tires.

All of the above showed several owners complaining and all of them had zero cooperation from the dealer for the fix.

As I said before...all cars have issues..and I think the new Camry (2012) is a first model year.

Oh yeah...my Grandma had a passion for the camry...
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:21 AM   #1252
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Tomster looks like this head issue got in your head and never allowed you to love your jeep. I think your making a mistake by bailing on a new vehicle because you may have future problems while under warranty. You can buy a lifetime powertrain warranty for what $800, compare that to how much your losing by trading it in so soon. Hell you could probably swap a new hemi in there for the loss on trade.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:59 AM   #1253
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Guys, I appreciate all of your words of encouragement. The greatest thing about Jeeps is the Jeep Family, which I have been part of since December of 2000, when I picked up my first Jeep.

I would not have let the potential head problem cause me to bail if I had been satisfied with a Jeep as a daily driver. I would have hung in there and hoped for the best, just like I hope for the best for all of you who are keeping your Jeeps.

I'm 63 years old and somehow I am not as tolerant of the disadvantages of a Jeep as my daily driver as I was a few years ago.

Oh, guys, the expression I used was "Cranial-Rectal INVERSION," not "Cranial-Rectal INSERTION." You know, "inversion," like "upside down."

I'll stick around this forum if you guys won't be too hard on me for bailing out. I'm rooting for you and I want to see how things go as far as this head problem. If I am ever in a position that I can afford a Jeep as a toy and not my daily driver, I can see buying another one someday.

Tomster
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:04 AM   #1254
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I wasn't sure I'd like the Jeep as a DD either but I love it. These new Jeeps drive just like cars anymore. What didn't you like about it? Mine drives like a dream and my commute is 26 miles each way. I'm pulling 20-22mpg as well on my daily commute which is right around what my Mustang got that I traded for it. I'm very happy with mine.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:18 AM   #1255
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Good luck with the new ride Tomster. If your going toyota you might want to look at the avalon instead of the camry. My mom had one and it was the smoothest ride I'd ever been in.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:47 AM   #1256
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Tomster I feel your pain. This is another example of the Internet and social networking causing great anxiety because you think you may end up with some type of chronic issue or problem. I think you can look at any other vehicle forum or worse a medical forum and conclude many bad things will happen to you or your vehicle. Although I will be the first to admit this head issue is taking the fun out of having a new jeep. Perhaps a new thread should be started for those with 'tick anxiety' or Tickophobia.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:52 AM   #1257
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I wasn't sure I'd like the Jeep as a DD either but I love it. These new Jeeps drive just like cars anymore. What didn't you like about it? Mine drives like a dream and my commute is 26 miles each way. I'm pulling 20-22mpg as well on my daily commute which is right around what my Mustang got that I traded for it. I'm very happy with mine.
Using mine as a DD as well and love it.

No ticks on mine so far, only 2K miles but runs very quiet.
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Old 06-17-2012, 10:44 AM   #1258
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Good luck with the new ride Tomster. If your going toyota you might want to look at the avalon instead of the camry. My mom had one and it was the smoothest ride I'd ever been in.
If it's a brand new car, like a 2011 or newer made after March 2011, you might want to have it checked out for residual radiation. It was a minor reason for me to leave Honda (the major ones were bad-smelling AC and massive rust damage on the undercarriage from having been registered and used in Vermont in the first 6 years - I looked for these things on my LJ REAL GOOD and was satisfied). I didn't want possible issues with radioactive parts for things not being made from scratch in the US and the potential for future earthquakes damaging more nuke plants. They've got around 54, I think, and NONE of them are capable of not overheating and blowing up if they lose access to electricity plus fuel for the backup generators (backup generators were damaged by the tsunami at Fukushima). If any more go up and they're close enough to the factories, they may have to shut them down and relocate the factories, translating to a cutoff in parts supplies for some time if they can't restart parts making to keep the supply lines full.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:50 AM   #1259
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Guys, the problems I had with a Jeep as a daily driver were mainly the lack of space for passengers and cargo and the lack of security for anything that I might have carried. My Jeep was a soft top, so absolutely no security.

I will get around 30 MPG with the Camry vs about 20 MPG with the Jeep.

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Old 06-17-2012, 12:03 PM   #1260
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I think the warranty costs will have a larger portion for the cars of 2 or more years old, so a 2012 1Q figure will not cover much about cars sold in 2011.
Or if there are other reports or statistics about how the gernal distribution of the warranty costs across the age of cars?
Chysler doesn't release that information, and neither does any other auto vendor. That said, they *are* required to report warranty set-asides (what they estimate future warranty costs for current sales to be), and that is showing the same slow growth as warranty costs (i.e., actually a reduction in per-vehicle warranty costs). Of course this doesn't stop them from re-stating that amortized future expense in the future if it turns out to be higher than expected, but it does appear that if there is a problem with the Pentastar it is not widespread enough to affect either current or expected warranty costs in any significant way. If the Pentastar was a complete lemon I'd expect to see something like the Chevy Vega fiasco, where *every* Vega eventually ended up in the dealership to have the engine sleeved (it was originally a coated aluminum bore) and a new cylinder head gasket installed and GM's warranty claims cost spiked through the roof even the first year of the Vega's release.

Note that the majority of warranty claims come during the first year of ownership, due to manufacturing defects. People's experience with Pentastars seems to be bearing that out, if they have a problem it occurs early. While folks like me who don't appear to have the problem... well, 13,000 miles isn't that much, I suppose, we'll see what happens .

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