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Old 08-13-2012, 11:31 AM   #1891
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Originally Posted by Thrasher722 View Post
You swap in a Hemi and smile, or thats my backup plan.
Man that is too costly for me. i think i would have like 50k into this thing at that point. better off building an old jeep like new with a fuel injected v8.

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Old 08-13-2012, 11:32 AM   #1892
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i know aev charges around 20k for a 5.7 swap and 28k for the 6.4L swap...yikes

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Old 08-13-2012, 11:34 AM   #1893
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I use 87 in mine and just added my first bottle of Techron that I will add every 10k. Hey, I called out your boy Tomster on his trolling again. Lol.
he is definatley "that guy." he needs to change his avatar to his new camry in all fairness if he is gonna post about our resale value dropping over this...
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:38 AM   #1894
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Have a 2012 Sahara Unlimited. Definitely don't have any noise like that yet (only 1400kms on it) but I'll definitely be listening for that. And I agree with an earlier statement. Ticking like that means metal on metal and that's never good. Worked on enough junk in my life to know
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:39 AM   #1895
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Originally Posted by rtguy

he is definatley "that guy." he needs to change his avatar to his new camry in all fairness if he is gonna post about our resale value dropping over this...
I called him out on all his statements. Now he is saying he has the right because he is a "supporting member" and a future buyer... I'm going to keep calling him out ever week or 2 just some people can research his true intentions.....
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:45 AM   #1896
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I called him out on all his statements. Now he is saying he has the right because he is a "supporting member" and a future buyer... I'm going to keep calling him out ever week or 2 just some people can research his true intentions.....
wow! i just went and read through some of that. that was all happening this morning i promised not to bother him in his stupid thread anymore i'm glad someone see's through his b.s. did he start another poll thread or something too?
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:49 AM   #1897
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look at demarpaint's posts...he is not an owner yet...he wants to buy but he has made the choice to ride this out until he knows for sure he will not be encountering this issue. he posts with solid facts and does not manipulate or "interperate" allpar or any other sources. his posts contribute positively. he tells potential buyers the facts and tells them to decide if they are willing to gamble or not. tomster on the other hand has a negative impact, attempts to drive customers away..stating that the resale value is gonna bottom out and that this is a major design issue that will effect most 12's based on his silly little poll.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:51 AM   #1898
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i wonder what this perfect storm of fuel and driving style is that causes this issue so early on with some jk's? anyone have any ideas?
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:06 PM   #1899
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Tomster was an owner that got out for reasons beyond the tick (Wrangler as a DD). Demarpaint is on the fence (as am I).

It really IS a bit of a gamble right now. Not enough to scare me away from a 2013 (I tried to order one last week, only to find out saddle wasn't available on the Sport), but enough of a gamble to make me a bit nervous. Bad batch of heads...or design flaw?
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:09 PM   #1900
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look at demarpaint's posts...he is not an owner yet...he wants to buy but he has made the choice to ride this out until he knows for sure he will not be encountering this issue. he posts with solid facts and does not manipulate or "interperate" allpar or any other sources. his posts contribute positively. he tells potential buyers the facts and tells them to decide if they are willing to gamble or not. tomster on the other hand has a negative impact, attempts to drive customers away..stating that the resale value is gonna bottom out and that this is a major design issue that will effect most 12's based on his silly little poll.
Hey thanks for the kind words! I know a few people don't like my posts, sorry about that guys. The fact is I'm a Jeep owner, an 08 Liberty, and I want a new Wrangler. I don't mind waiting I just want it right. This board is an asset, I honestly believe Chrysler will get it right, I want to be sure. I read a lot, and ask a lot of questions. I have a few friends in the industry from when I worked in auto sales. All I can say is the problem is a bit worse than many of us think it is. I will never criticize anyone for buying, not buying, waiting, or selling their Wrangler to cut losses [if they feel they are in a losing position]. In the end I think we all want it right, and would like the peace of mind knowing that if we own a Wrangler with an issue it will be fixed and fixed right. We're almost there.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:10 PM   #1901
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Hey thanks for the kind words! I know a few people don't like my posts, sorry about that guys. The fact is I'm a Jeep owner, an 08 Liberty, and I want a new Wrangler. I don't mind waiting I just want it right. This board is an asset, I honestly believe Chrysler will get it right, I want to be sure. I read a lot, and ask a lot of questions. I have a few friends in the industry from when I worked in auto sales. All I can say is the problem is a bit worse than many of us think it is. I will never criticize anyone for buying, not buying, waiting, or selling their Wrangler to cut losses [if they feel they are in a losing position]. In the end I think we all want it right, and would like the peace of mind knowing that if we own a Wrangler with an issue it will be fixed and fixed right. We're almost there.
Perfect answer.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:21 PM   #1902
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so what happens after 100,000 miles or five years and I have this "perfect storm" of crappy gas and drive cycle and my head takes a dump? wtf? i'm wondering if people are running 92 octane or higher that are getting the cel or 87 or lower. i need to figure out this perfect storm so i can screw my shit up and get it fixed already...lol maybe some 110 will do it? yeah right! fry the whole enchilada!!
I run been running 93 for the last month and have the problem. As for running 110, it won't do a damn thing....unless its leaded....then you may have some issues lol.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:35 PM   #1903
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I run been running 93 for the last month and have the problem. As for running 110, it won't do a damn thing....unless its leaded....then you may have some issues lol.

Yea I don't think gas or oil is a fix. I wonder why they redesigned the left cyl head and did nothing at all to the right head? What makes the left head go bad and not the right head? Aren't they clones of each other, the only thing being different is there is a dedicated left and right head?

I wonder if in 2013 both heads were redesigned, to the "beefed up version"?

As a side note 2013 calls for 5W20 instead of 5W30 oil. Is it CAFE or is it the thinner oil will slip past the valve guides keeping them lubed better so it takes longer to fail, or won't fail? Will the 2013 consume a bit more oil with the 5W20? Lots of questions with no answers.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:38 PM   #1904
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Originally Posted by 2012-Rubicon

I run been running 93 for the last month and have the problem. As for running 110, it won't do a damn thing....unless its leaded....then you may have some issues lol.
Coming from sports car world here but higher octane shouldn't do anything but cost you more money. The motors have a knock sensor that will retard or advance the timing so knock doesn't occur. From what i understand it does burn faster & smoother but it shouldn't have any impact.

Let me know what I am missing about the benefits of higher octane or if what I have been told is wrong.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:45 PM   #1905
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The best description of the effects of octane I've read was on Wikipedia.

Lifted from Wiki.

"Effects of octane rating

Higher octane ratings correlate to higher activation energies: This being the amount of applied energy required to initiate combustion. Since higher octane fuels have higher activation energy requirements, it is less likely that a given compression will cause uncontrolled ignition, otherwise known as autoignition or detonation.

It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings are used in more powerful engines, since such fuels ignite less easily. However, detonation is undesirable in a spark ignition engine, and is signified by audible "pinging" or in more extreme cases "knock".

A fuel with a higher octane rating can be burnt in an engine with a high compression ratio without causing detonation, as such fuels are less prone to detonation. Compression is directly related to power and to thermodynamic efficiency (see engine tuning), so engines that require a higher octane fuel usually develop more motive power and therefore do more work in relation to the calorific value of the fuel (BTU) being used. Power output is a function of the properties of the fuel used, as well as the design of the engine itself, and is related to octane rating of the fuel. Power is limited by the maximum amount of fuel-air mixture that can be brought into the combustion chamber. When the throttle is partly open, only a small fraction of the total available power is produced because the manifold is operating at pressures far below that of the external atmosphere (depression). In this case, the octane requirement is far lower than when the throttle is opened fully and the manifold pressure increases to almost that of the external atmosphere, or higher in the case of forced induction engines (See supercharged or turbocharged engines).

Many high-performance engines are designed to operate with a high maximum compression, and thus demand fuels of higher octane. A common misconception is that power output or fuel efficiency can be improved by burning fuel of higher octane than that specified by the engine manufacturer. The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of the fuel being burnt. Fuels of different octane ratings may have similar densities, but because switching to a higher octane fuel does not add more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot develop more power.

However, burning fuel with a lower octane rating than that for which the engine is designed often results in a reduction of power output and efficiency. Many modern engines are equipped with a knock sensor (a small piezoelectric microphone), which sends a signal to the engine control unit, which in turn retards the ignition timing when detonation is detected. Retarding the ignition timing reduces the tendency of the fuel-air mixture to detonate, but also reduces power output and fuel efficiency. Because of this, under conditions of high load and high temperature, a given engine may have a more consistent power output with a higher octane fuel, as such fuels are less prone to detonation. Some modern high performance engines are actually optimized for higher than pump premium (93 AKI in the US). The 2001 - 2007 BMW M3 with the S54 engine is one such car. Car and Driver magazine tested a car using a dynamometer, and found that the power output increased as the AKI was increased up to approximately 96 AKI.

Most fuel filling stations have two storage tanks (even those offering 3 or 4 octane levels): those motorists who purchase intermediate grade fuels are given a mixture of higher and lower octane fuels. "Premium" grade is fuel of higher octane, and the minimum grade sold is fuel of lower octane. Purchasing 91 octane fuel (where offered) simply means that more fuel of higher octane is blended with commensurately less fuel of lower octane, than when purchasing a lower grade. The detergents and other additives in the fuel are often, but not always, identical.

The octane rating was developed by chemist Russell Marker at the Ethyl Corporation in 1926. The selection of n-heptane as the zero point of the scale was due to its availability in high purity. Other isomers of heptane produced from crude oil have greatly different ratings."
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:46 PM   #1906
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I also have a 2012 Sahara unlimited. No problems yet but will definitely be listening for the ticking.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:54 PM   #1907
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So, to sum it up:

This issue always hits the left side, cylinder #2, 30% compression loss, right?

It occurs only once - or has anyone had a second head replacement?

How did your MPGs develop after the repair? Mine went straight up, from roughly 19 to over 21 average! I even got 25 mpg once on a relaxed highway drive.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:55 PM   #1908
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I still stand that higher octane is a waste of $ in these motors & can even have a negative impact if the knock sensor doesn't change the timing of the motor causing a spark to happen when the piston is not at the apex for that mixture of gas.

If motor is made for 87, it thinks it needs to spark sooner because that gas burns slower. If using high octane the piston will still be traveling up when it ignites thus causing knock.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:01 PM   #1909
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Coming from sports car world here but higher octane shouldn't do anything but cost you more money. The motors have a knock sensor that will retard or advance the timing so knock doesn't occur. From what i understand it does burn faster & smoother but it shouldn't have any impact.

Let me know what I am missing about the benefits of higher octane or if what I have been told is wrong.
From what I understand, the knock sensor is reactive so it pulls timing after experiencing detonation and reads for knock constantly while the engine is running. If this problem has anything to do with detonation (perhaps brief moments of knock increase the average operating temp and the left bank has poor heat dissipation properties), then running a higher octane to proactively prevent knock may be of some assistance.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:02 PM   #1910
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I still stand that higher octane is a waste of $ in these motors & can even have a negative impact if the knock sensor doesn't change the timing of the motor causing a spark to happen when the piston is not at the apex for that mixture of gas.

If motor is made for 87, it thinks it needs to spark sooner because that gas burns slower. If using high octane the piston will still be traveling up when it ignites thus causing knock.
It is just a waste. Low octane fuel ignites "earlier" - if the engine is designed to use a high octane fuel (high compression ration, early timing), then low octane fuel fuel ignites prematurely working against the piston. The other way around nothing particular/extraordinary happens.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:12 PM   #1911
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I run been running 93 for the last month and have the problem. As for running 110, it won't do a damn thing....unless its leaded....then you may have some issues lol.

Yea I don't think gas or oil is a fix. I wonder why they redesigned the left cyl head and did nothing at all to the right head? What makes the left head go bad and not the right head? Aren't they clones of each other, the only thing being different is there is a dedicated left and right head?

I wonder if in 2013 both heads were redesigned, to the "beefed up version"?

As a side note 2013 calls for 5W20 instead of 5W30 oil. Is it CAFE or is it the thinner oil will slip past the valve guides keeping them lubed better so it takes longer to fail, or won't fail? Will the 2013 consume a bit more oil with the 5W20? Lots of questions with no answers.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:22 PM   #1912
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Just the opposite my friend. Octane is a measure of the ability for the fuel to resist heat, therefore it technically burns slower. Low Octane fuels burn faster. There is absolutely no advantage to using high octane fuel in lower compression engines, in fact some loss in mileage may occur. Easy way to remember, "low compression=low octane, high compression=high octane. This is one of those examples where cheap is best.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #1913
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #1914
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So, I dropped my ticking, p0300 misfire code ablaze, 14000 mile Jeep of at the dealer this morning. The girl working the counter last Friday was totally upfront with everything. She knew exactly why I was there, and of u go back a few pages to Friday morning, you will see how well that all went. I get a call today from the service manager (I wonder why they had the manager do the talking )
So, he says there's a bulletin on that code and issue, and it was flashed and tested. It is good to go he says! Haha. I then ask him about the cylinder head ticking noticeably. He says it's normal. I then told him straight up on the phone: "Look, I know it's not normal, nor is it right. You know that as well. I know what's in store for me soon, and so do you. I also understand you have to follow Chrysler's steps apparently, so I'll come pick up my ticking time bomb and you guys will see me soon I'm sure, but thank u!"
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:07 PM   #1915
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At least we have a little info on both the extent of the problem (500 new heads per week nationwide) and some of the root causes (fuel quality). My November build has never had any ticking but I do notice a lot of pinging going up steep hills at mid throttle. Much more pinging than any other vehicle I own. Maybe the pinging implies I can expect head issues.

I'd feel better about this if Chrysler came out and said they would provide an extended warranty for any 3.6 prior to the new head design.

On the other hand if it's related to fuel quality you'd think Chrysler could come up with a reflash that would trigger the knock detection sooner or in some other way protect the motor against the problem. Maybe that's what the current reprogramming does but the way their implementing it (only after the damage has occurred) defeats the purpose. Maybe all 2012 Wrangler should get the reprogramming proactively. Total guesswork on my part.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:13 PM   #1916
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The article says a more robust "head" has been designed and used for the replacement. Redesigned "heads" would be even nicer.

I'd love to see Ward's if writes an article about the ticking Pentastar engines. They named it one of the ten best engines ever made in 2010 and 2011. I think it has a shot at being one of the ten best engines if they fix it. Kind of stupid for Ward's to write an article about an engine before got some real world testing. You write about the best after the fact, not before. LOL
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:17 PM   #1917
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Kind of stupid for Ward's to write an article about an engine before got some real world testing. You write about the best after the fact, not before. LOL
lol, just like the movie that's coming out in 2 weeks and already is the "best movie of the year" "everyone is raving about" "10 out of 10",ect. I really never pay much attention to what the media says.....
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:29 PM   #1918
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This is the all par article referenced in the other article http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php...issue-in-depth
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:29 PM   #1919
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lol, just like the movie that's coming out in 2 weeks and already is the "best movie of the year" "everyone is raving about" "10 out of 10",ect. I really never pay much attention to what the media says.....
You're right, it makes you wonder if they were paid to write the article. This year they're pushing Audi pretty heavy.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:35 PM   #1920
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You're right, it makes you wonder if they were paid to write the article. This year they're pushing Audi pretty heavy.
Exactly!!!! Good thing that crap would never happen with our government.....

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