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Old 08-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #1921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aargh
Just the opposite my friend. Octane is a measure of the ability for the fuel to resist heat, therefore it technically burns slower. Low Octane fuels burn faster. There is absolutely no advantage to using high octane fuel in lower compression engines, in fact some loss in mileage may occur. Easy way to remember, "low compression=low octane, high compression=high octane. This is one of those examples where cheap is best.
Well your kinda right. If you have low compression and forced induction= high octane.

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Old 08-13-2012, 03:48 PM   #1922
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As far as Octane goes, if an engine calls for 87 Octane and it pings, or runs bad on it one of two things is happening. The gas is bad, which can be fixed by filling up at a different gas station, or two there is something wrong with the engine. Any late model car should run well on 87 Octane gas if that's what it calls for.

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Old 08-13-2012, 05:00 PM   #1923
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Are there enough people with the problem on this thread that we can figure out what these very rare sequence of events are? I'd just like to know if it's something that would be common or not, or if it's really the culprit. Seems like it would be hard to determine what kind of fuel was used in a post mortem analysis...
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:36 PM   #1924
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I'm driving my "re-flashed" Jeep with "updated software" all over the place this week. That re-flash should cure the misfiring cylinder head and ticking noise. lol Let's take a guess: How long til that code comes back? Haha
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:42 PM   #1925
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well.. got re-flashed today... anyone know what exactly the update changes? if the fella behind the counter would have stuttered one more time.. he had no idea besides "update" ...well, yeah..

__________________________________________

in the octane article [thank you poster] the "proprietary" gas pump paragraph was eye opening...

in short.. i experience /pinging knocking, dealer says try higher octane fuel. throw in a full tank Exxon 93. runs amazing. never a ping. next tank sunoco 89.. next tank sunoco 89... pinging back..

well.. no wonder the 93 originally worked... it's not some on demand pump mix of low grade/high grade.. 93 is 100% high grade. correct me if i'm wrong. isn't the Pentastar a higher compression engine?


i have not a tick. i do have the knock. it might be in others opinions a waste.. but i'm running 93 or better from here on out. it's worth the cost to KNOT be annoyed. and, i'd rather my engine not be opened up.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:59 PM   #1926
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pentastar: 10.2:1

Due to engine knocking (detonation), the compression ratio in a gasoline or petrol-powered engine will usually not be much higher than 10:1, although some production automotive engines built for high-performance from 1955–1972 had compression ratios as high as 13.0:1, which could run safely on the high-octane leaded gasoline then available.
A technique used to prevent the onset of knock is the high "swirl" engine that forces the intake charge to adopt a very fast circular rotation in the cylinder during compression that provides quicker and more complete combustion. Recently, with the addition of variable valve timing and knock sensors to delay ignition timing, it is possible to manufacture gasoline engines with compression ratios of over 11:1 that can use 87 (MON + RON)/2 (octane rating) fuel. Note that such engines may not produce their full rated power using 87 octane gasoline under all circumstances due to the delayed ignition timing. Direct fuel injection which can inject fuel only at the time of fuel ignition (similar to a diesel engine) is another recent development which also allows for higher compression ratios on gasoline engines.


yep. high test. from here on out. if i can't drive impaired, either can my engine... no more "retard" ing with low octane.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:15 PM   #1927
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me too.....

first post...

Didn't really have a need to till I got a check engine light in my 2012 JK (november build date). I dropped it off at the dealership this morning and by 9am they said I needed a new head.

Let me preface...before going to the dealership, I did my research and did that "turn the ignition thing 3 times without starting it" and got the code "P0306". Which according to a post, is cylinder 6 miss fire. This morning when I dropped it off, I let the service tech know about my suspicion...he didn't tell me about flashing or updating anything but said that I had a bad cylinder, cylinder 6, and it needed to be replaced.

I asked for a little background and he said that Chrysler knows about the issue and has stronger replacement heads. I asked if it is only one of the cylinder heads that needs replaced and he said yes. So according to him...that should be the end of that.

I have 10,777 miles on it. My situation seems a little different then most...I didn't hear any "knocking" or "ticking" from anywhere and no loss of power or stalling like the article suggests before or after the engine light came on.

News: Pentastar head issue in depth

for what it's worth...I hope I get my jeep on Wednesday...lol

P.S. The dealership didn't play any games with me. He was up front with me and I will get my Jeep back within 72 hours. Even gave me a free rental. They had the part in stock! P.T.L.

P.S.S. Service guy didn't say anything about fuel quality.

peace fellow jeepers
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:31 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by myjeepfun View Post
first post...

Didn't really have a need to till I got a check engine light in my 2012 JK (november build date). I dropped it off at the dealership this morning and by 9am they said I needed a new head.

. . . .
News: Pentastar head issue in depth
^This article says that Chrysler claims "around 1%" of the 3.6 engines are effected. Can that be right? I thought it was a whole heck of a lot . . . perhaps even all?
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:34 PM   #1929
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So it seems like the issue is known and there is a viable fix. Thats good to know. Where do you find the build date?

Also quite glad I got the lifetime warranty on mine in case further issues develop with these new motors down the road.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:47 PM   #1930
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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
The fact is I'm a Jeep owner, an 08 Liberty, and I want a new Wrangler. I don't mind waiting I just want it right. This board is an asset, I honestly believe Chrysler will get it right, I want to be sure. I read a lot, and ask a lot of questions. I have a few friends in the industry (----) In the end I think we all want it right, and would like the peace of mind knowing that if we own a Wrangler with an issue it will be fixed and fixed right. We're almost there.
Count me as another in the same situation. Bought a Hemi Grand Cherokee and totally love it, bar FAR my favorite vehicle among many nice rides I've owned. I wanted a Wrangler as a second work-dedicated-kid-can-use-it vehicle and waited for the Pentastar to be added and then this. Sigh. Waiting this out and while it bums me out, I trust Fiat's car-guy CEO will make sure things don't go the old Detoilet ways. I hope/think.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:56 PM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Braveheart12JK
I'm driving my "re-flashed" Jeep with "updated software" all over the place this week. That re-flash should cure the misfiring cylinder head and ticking noise. lol Let's take a guess: How long til that code comes back? Haha
Mine came back on in about 3 miles. Lol
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by myjeepfun
first post...

Didn't really have a need to till I got a check engine light in my 2012 JK (november build date). I dropped it off at the dealership this morning and by 9am they said I needed a new head.

Let me preface...before going to the dealership, I did my research and did that "turn the ignition thing 3 times without starting it" and got the code "P0306". Which according to a post, is cylinder 6 miss fire. This morning when I dropped it off, I let the service tech know about my suspicion...he didn't tell me about flashing or updating anything but said that I had a bad cylinder, cylinder 6, and it needed to be replaced.

I asked for a little background and he said that Chrysler knows about the issue and has stronger replacement heads. I asked if it is only one of the cylinder heads that needs replaced and he said yes. So according to him...that should be the end of that.

I have 10,777 miles on it. My situation seems a little different then most...I didn't hear any "knocking" or "ticking" from anywhere and no loss of power or stalling like the article suggests before or after the engine light came on.

News: Pentastar head issue in depth

for what it's worth...I hope I get my jeep on Wednesday...lol

P.S. The dealership didn't play any games with me. He was up front with me and I will get my Jeep back within 72 hours. Even gave me a free rental. They had the part in stock! P.T.L.

P.S.S. Service guy didn't say anything about fuel quality.

peace fellow jeepers
Awesome news! Keep us posted and good luck. I'm not worried in the least at all. It is a bit if an annoyance, but in the end they will all be fixed and for free. Let's hope Chrysler got the updated heads right! lol
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:02 PM   #1933
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Mine came back on in about 3 miles. Lol
Oh great. Lol. Thank u. When u went back the second time, did they replace the head?
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:36 PM   #1934
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Quote:Because the issue seems to make itself known relatively quickly, it should come up within the warranty period, and “the new Chrysler” has proven itself likely to stand behind known defects long after warranties are over. The problem affects a small percentage of engines. With service parts now available, the issue is likely to disappear and the affair may not be remembered as more than an early glitch.

One can only hope this will be the case.....
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:46 PM   #1935
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Oh great. Lol. Thank u. When u went back the second time, did they replace the head?
Yes. Well, pretty much, I had a 3 week wait while it was on back order but they fessed up right away.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #1936
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Yes. Well, pretty much, I had a 3 week wait while it was on back order but they fessed up right away.
Excellent. Good to hear they fessed up too
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:59 PM   #1937
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^This article says that Chrysler claims "around 1%" of the 3.6 engines are effected. Can that be right? I thought it was a whole heck of a lot . . . perhaps even all?
I took that article to mean the 7500 vehicles impacted are those which have already been recorded to date - not total....they are still receiving an average of 500 new requests per week...who knows what the final total will be. It does sound like new production should be OK...hopefully.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:05 PM   #1938
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Well your kinda right. If you have low compression and forced induction= high octane.
Forced induction [turbo] above a given point and low compression equal higher compression ratios and thus, demand higher octane gasoline.

Supercharging is pretty much the same.

An engine control module may intercede and limit/reduce induction, fuel, performance, or all of the above to prevent damage. I used to own and race a 1987 Buick Grand National and learned the hard way.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:16 PM   #1939
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One significant factor many do not realize is that gasoline can be contaminated after it leaves the refinery and the tank truck.

Gasoline is pumped into the underground storage tanks for delivery to the consumer through the retail pumps. Since the outlets are at ground level, rainwater and other contaminants on the ground can make their way into the tank inlet. Because water has a higher specific gravity than gasoline, it can settle into the bottom of the tank if not caught by a filter and contaminate the gasoline, whether it is 87, 89, 91, 93, or 100 avgas.

My solution is to fill up with gasoline before any heavy rains fall and if I suspect contaminated fuel, I call my State's Weights and Measures division and they will sample the gas from the station in question to determine any contamination. Fines can result from selling contaminated fuels to consumers.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:57 PM   #1940
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They keep saying small percentage, then somewhere I read they are seeing them fail at a rate of 500/week now. How many Wranglers do they build in a week?
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:12 PM   #1941
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They keep saying small percentage, then somewhere I read they are seeing them fail at a rate of 500/week now. How many Wranglers do they build in a week?
You're a genius!

As of January 2012, production was 700 units/day. The plant runs 20 hours/day, 6 days/week so:

News: Chrysler boosting Wrangler production

6 X 700 = 4200 a week.

500 affected units/week divided by 4200 units produced per week = about 12% rate of head failure.

Coincidentally (?) Tomsters poll (http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/pol...em-158389.html) shows about 14% of respondents with replaced head.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:18 PM   #1942
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Shouldn't units = engines not wranglers?
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:24 PM   #1943
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Shouldn't units = engines not wranglers?
Yes, maybe, they were a little unclear, same as their comments about why they are failing. But I think you're correct. So the better question should have been how many engines do they build a day? Either way 500 a week failing is a lot of engines, vehicles, or units.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:24 PM   #1944
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Shouldn't units = engines not wranglers?
You're right. I'm an idiot (demarpaint is the genius - not me.) I'm just a Wrangler-head. Other vehicles don't cross my mind!

The article does seem to refer to all 3.6L vehicles, not only Wranglers, so the other model production numbers would have to be added to the Wranglers to get the percentage of failure, but it sure ain't going to be 1% like Chrysler's lawyers told them to say......
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #1945
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You're right. I'm an idiot (demarpaint is the genius - not me.) I'm just a Wrangler-head. Other vehicles don't cross my mind!

The article does seem to refer to all 3.6L vehicles, not only Wranglers, so the other model production numbers would have to be added to the Wranglers to get the percentage of failure, but it sure ain't going to be 1% like Chrysler's lawyers told them to say......
You an idiot? Hardly, Chrysler seems to think we're idiots. The truth is their story about the low failure rate, and the lame excuse about gas and how the vehicle is used could be the cause of the problem. Only an idiot would believe that story.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #1946
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This part of the article :
"The Pentastar engine has an unusual design. The engine's exhaust passages merge into a single outlet in the aluminum cylinder heads before exiting to the exhaust manifold. Most modern engine designs send hot exhaust gases in separate passages in the head to the exhaust manifold.

Bob Lee, Chrysler's chief of engineering, said, however, that excessive heat was not a factor in the malfunction and that his engineering teams spent months isolating its causes."

Being it seems its the left head with issues maybe that crazy loop-d-loop in the exhaust on that side is part of the cause on the wranglers? Just makes me wonder ..I dunno!
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:52 PM   #1947
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There's three or so inches of insulation on top of the left head under the manifold. It will surely increase the retention of heat .
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:22 PM   #1948
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This part of the article :
"The Pentastar engine has an unusual design. The engine's exhaust passages merge into a single outlet in the aluminum cylinder heads before exiting to the exhaust manifold. Most modern engine designs send hot exhaust gases in separate passages in the head to the exhaust manifold.

Bob Lee, Chrysler's chief of engineering, said, however, that excessive heat was not a factor in the malfunction and that his engineering teams spent months isolating its causes."

Being it seems its the left head with issues maybe that crazy loop-d-loop in the exhaust on that side is part of the cause on the wranglers? Just makes me wonder ..I dunno!
Bingo. Bob Lee goes out of his way to say it's not a heat issue, but they won't say what it is, instead throwing up mealy mouth BS about bad gas (my ass).

Let's use a little logic here:
1. if it were a run of bad heads they wouldn't have redesigned it "beefing it up".
2. the cause of the ticking and loss of compression is disintegrating valve guides. Hello! Heat problem.
3. Chrysler can't possibly admit to a design flaw in so many heads in the field, so they won't unless forced.
4. but eventually the truth will out, there are too many of these out there to keep a lid on it forever. It's only a matter of time.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:36 PM   #1949
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I still maintain that the unlucky ones that get the "tick" will get the fix! So at the end if the day it will all be over sooner or later. Let's stop with the coperate conspiracies.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:49 PM   #1950
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So in the article that was posted they say:

Quote:
He said the malfunctions were the result of "an interaction of a lot of rare things that ultimately come together to affect a small percentage of the population." Those could include different fuel mixes and the way the vehicle is driven, he said, though he did not explain further.

Lee said there are limits to the percentage of Pentastars that will experience the malfunction because of the variables involved.


"You have to have this fuel characteristic, you have to have this drive cycle -- and all of these things have to line up in order to have this situation occur," Lee said. "That's why" the number of potentially affected engines "is so small. If it were a design defect, or if it affected [a basic component] like the integrated exhaust, we'd have issues on everything, which we don't."
Isn't the definition of a design defect something that can happen to anyone given the right circumstances? How is the fact that it's rare make it not a design defect?

I'm not sure they meant to admit this issue can happen to ANY 3.6 given the right fuel and driving style and driving pattern. They say they know each of these factors but won't tell. Seriously?

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