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Old 08-13-2012, 11:16 PM   #1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWyatt View Post
So in the article that was posted they say:



Isn't the definition of a design defect something that can happen to anyone given the right circumstances? How is the fact that it's rare make it not a design defect?

I'm not sure they meant to admit this issue can happen to ANY 3.6 given the right fuel and driving style and driving pattern. They say they know each of these factors but won't tell. Seriously?
They really should have thought it over before they went public with their lack of findings and info. What they created was fear and doubt in the quality of the engine. They also accomplished IMO getting people to think that under the right conditions the left head can fail. No one knows what the right conditions are but they can fail under those conditions.

First thing I'd do if I owned one of these engines in question is get the insulation out of there. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out one of the "conditions" is heat, and that's the only condition they claim isn't a problem. I think the problem is a flaw in the design of the heads, and high heat. Maybe they should start looking in that direction.

This engine powers a Jeep, an off road vehicle used under extreme conditions, that not many vehicles can be used for.

I'm hoping the redesigned head is the end of this, and in a year or so we'll be talking about how great the engine is.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:53 AM   #1952
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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
I'm hoping the redesigned head is the end of this, and in a year or so we'll be talking about how great the engine is.
Redesigning the head should have been pretty straightforward once they knew what the problem was. Analyse coolant flow for dead spots, increase the area of certain coolant chambers, increase the thickness of aluminum walls in certain areas.

Chrysler will probably extend a lifetime warranty for this entire run of flawed heads, even tho they will not be able to publicize it. They have to replace heads gradually as they fail, as opposed to all at once in a recall, to spread the cost over time.

New vehicles after a certain build date should be OK.

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Old 08-14-2012, 09:00 AM   #1953
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The new vehicles "should" be OK, we'll know soon enough. I also wonder why they only redesigned one head? Even though they aren't having problems with the right head its the same design, only for the right side of the engine. The smart move going forward would have been to redesign both heads. JMO
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:13 AM   #1954
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Originally Posted by demarpaint

Yea I don't think gas or oil is a fix. I wonder why they redesigned the left cyl head and did nothing at all to the right head? What makes the left head go bad and not the right head? Aren't they clones of each other, the only thing being different is there is a dedicated left and right head?

I wonder if in 2013 both heads were redesigned, to the "beefed up version"?

As a side note 2013 calls for 5W20 instead of 5W30 oil. Is it CAFE or is it the thinner oil will slip past the valve guides keeping them lubed better so it takes longer to fail, or won't fail? Will the 2013 consume a bit more oil with the 5W20? Lots of questions with no answers.
I'll be going for first oil change next week on a 2012. Should I go for 5w20 or 30?
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:21 AM   #1955
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I'll be going for first oil change next week on a 2012. Should I go for 5w20 or 30?


Mobil as well as Amsoil show 5W30 as the recommended oil, I would not mess with it while under warranty.

What's the right oil for my car?

Unless there is a TSB stating that you can use 5W20 in a 2012 Wrangler, I would stick with 5W30 which is on your fill cap. Or call your dealer and ask if they back spec'd your vehicle to 5W20. ASFAIK they didn't back spec it.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:23 AM   #1956
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What is the difference between the right and left head?
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:23 AM   #1957
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I spoke with my closest dealer and Service Tech said they have always used 5w-20 since 2011 in the JK. He wasn't sure why or could answer why the oil cap on my 2012 says 5w-30 or if i should go with 5w-20.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:25 AM   #1958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demarpaint

Mobil as well as Amsoil show 5W30 as the recommended oil, I would not mess with it while under warranty.

What's the right oil for my car?

Unless there is a TSB stating that you can use 5W20 in a 2012 Wrangler, I would stick with 5W30 which is on your fill cap. Or call your dealer and ask if they back spec'd your vehicle to 5W20. ASFAIK they didn't back spec it.
Many thanks!
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:39 AM   #1959
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Originally Posted by bengen1 View Post

Being it seems its the left head with issues maybe that crazy loop-d-loop in the exhaust on that side is part of the cause on the wranglers? Just makes me wonder ..I dunno!
That crazy loop on the exhaust is what I have been suspecting all along... Just my thought.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:42 AM   #1960
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Originally Posted by j.luis View Post
That crazy loop on the exhaust is what I have been suspecting all along... Just my thought.
If it is a heat problem, maybe we can all get TMD heat reduction hoods for free!!
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:50 AM   #1961
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Chryslers Pentastar notification from yesterday

Hello All,
Saw this in Auto-Tech Yesterday. Hopefully will shed some light on the issue.

Chrysler Replacing
Defective V-6 Cylinder
Heads
Posted: August 13, 2012 at 1:22 am
Chrysler Group LLC has been installing “more
robust” cylinder heads on thousands of customer
vehicles powered by the company’s 3.6-liter
Pentastar V-6 engine, Automotive News reports.
The engine currently is used in Chrysler’s Grand
Cherokee and Wrangler SUVs and Chrysler 300
and Dodge Charger sedans.
Chrysler says the problem, which it does not
describe in detail, is not a design defect and
occurs only in in combination with an unspecified
fuel mix and undisclosed driving conditions.
AN says the problem causes the check-engine
light to illuminate, may produce a ticking sound
and could cause power loss or stalling. Chrysler
insists the issue does not totally disable the
engine.
The problem affects about 7,500 of the 1.5 million
Pentastar engines Chrysler built over the past two
years, according to Doug Betts, senior vice
president for quality.
The company says its dealers have been filing
more than 500 requests per week to replace the
heads under warranty. AN isn’t clear whether
dealers are replacing both heads or only one on
each engine.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:56 AM   #1962
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Originally Posted by 2012-Rubicon View Post
Yeah, like staring it and driving it, lol. They are so full of crap their eyes are Brown.

I've been in the south most of my life and I'm used to some funny sayings, but this one is hilarious. Never heard it before but I like it (and my eyes are brown)
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:12 AM   #1963
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Chrysler says the problem, which it does not
describe in detail, is not a design defect and
occurs only in in combination with an unspecified
fuel mix and undisclosed driving conditions.

LOL- And when you find the winning combination, the specified fuel mix, and then disclose to them the driving conditions you get a new head! WOW
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:16 AM   #1964
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What is the difference between the right and left head?
The only difference as far as I can tell is they can only be used on either the right side, or the left side of the engine, they can't be interchanged because the exhaust manifold is part of the head.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:38 AM   #1965
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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
The only difference as far as I can tell is they can only be used on either the right side, or the left side of the engine, they can't be interchanged because the exhaust manifold is part of the head.
If it is a heat problem on the left side because of the looping manifold, I would think that people would be experiencing a lot of head gasket failures...resulting in coolant contamination of the oil and vice versa.

Anyone that has the misfire notice coolant in the oil? Or oil in the coolant? Or is the misfire solely due to a problem with the valves?
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:46 AM   #1966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC_Davisburg View Post
Hello All,
Saw this in Auto-Tech Yesterday. Hopefully will shed some light on the issue.

The engine currently is used in Chrysler’s Grand
Cherokee and Wrangler SUVs and Chrysler 300
and Dodge Charger sedans.
I am ordering tech vans for our company and they are 2013 Dodge Ram work vans (formerly Caravans). They are coming with the 3.6 Pentastar. So we once again have minivan engines in our Wranglers. LOL

Fiat Chrysler will have to solve the problem as the Pentastar is going to be the only v-6 they put in vehicles soon and I can tell you that the leasing company we get them from will only service them per the owner's manual instructions and many techs will stretch that based upon schedules.

These engines will certainly be put to the test in commercial vehicles.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:03 AM   #1967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aypanthony View Post
If it is a heat problem on the left side because of the looping manifold, I would think that people would be experiencing a lot of head gasket failures...resulting in coolant contamination of the oil and vice versa.

Anyone that has the misfire notice coolant in the oil? Or oil in the coolant? Or is the misfire solely due to a problem with the valves?
I had oil analysis (Blackstone Labs) done on mine just prior to the CEL and left head replacement. There was no evidence of coolant in the oil. In fact, the numbers were good across the board. I've used Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 exclusively since the first oil change. CEL and head replacement were at 15K miles. I'm currently at 28K miles with no ticking or further issues since the left head replacement.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:14 AM   #1968
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Originally Posted by bluehen View Post
I had oil analysis (Blackstone Labs) done on mine just prior to the CEL and left head replacement. There was no evidence of coolant in the oil. In fact, the numbers were good across the board. I've used Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 exclusively since the first oil change. CEL and head replacement were at 15K miles. I'm currently at 28K miles with no ticking or further issues since the left head replacement.
Very good to know. Thanks.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:20 AM   #1969
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Originally Posted by j.luis View Post
That crazy loop on the exhaust is what I have been suspecting all along... Just my thought.
If they replace your head do they remove the insulation? I was just wondering.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:26 AM   #1970
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Originally Posted by Jeeperz Creeperz View Post
Very good to know. Thanks.
Here was the analysis for anyone interested:

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Old 08-14-2012, 11:35 AM   #1971
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I am ordering tech vans for our company and they are 2013 Dodge Ram work vans (formerly Caravans). They are coming with the 3.6 Pentastar. So we once again have minivan engines in our Wranglers. LOL

Fiat Chrysler will have to solve the problem as the Pentastar is going to be the only v-6 they put in vehicles soon and I can tell you that the leasing company we get them from will only service them per the owner's manual instructions and many techs will stretch that based upon schedules.

These engines will certainly be put to the test in commercial vehicles.

I'd love to hear how they run and hold up for you, I'm sure others would be interested too. Keep us posted. Thanks!
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:39 AM   #1972
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Originally Posted by aypanthony View Post
If it is a heat problem on the left side because of the looping manifold, I would think that people would be experiencing a lot of head gasket failures...resulting in coolant contamination of the oil and vice versa.

Anyone that has the misfire notice coolant in the oil? Or oil in the coolant? Or is the misfire solely due to a problem with the valves?
I think the heat problem is having an effect on the valve guides themselves, and more from combustion chamber heat than oil, or coolant temp heat. The guides are not serviceable and might have been a bit too thin. They get a bit distorted for lack of a better term, and everything related to that valve goes out of whack. JMO
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:43 PM   #1973
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so what happens after 100,000 miles or five years and I have this "perfect storm" of crappy gas and drive cycle and my head takes a dump?
That's what I wonder as well. Chrysler will obviously fix the problem under warranty, but it may not always happen as quickly, particularly if there are indeed some environmental or other factors. Still, I want a Wrangler, I've ordered a Wrangler, and for about $850, I can buy peace of mind in the form of a lifetime power train warranty. I'm not going to worry about how I'm driving or if I should be putting a certain type of gas in the thing, I'm just going to drive it, and if I have a problem, it'll spend a few days in the shop. Not that big a deal.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:09 PM   #1974
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That's what I wonder as well. Chrysler will obviously fix the problem under warranty, but it may not always happen as quickly, particularly if there are indeed some environmental or other factors. Still, I want a Wrangler, I've ordered a Wrangler, and for about $850, I can buy peace of mind in the form of a lifetime power train warranty. I'm not going to worry about how I'm driving or if I should be putting a certain type of gas in the thing, I'm just going to drive it, and if I have a problem, it'll spend a few days in the shop. Not that big a deal.
Anyone else find some irony in the idea that this problem doesn't appear to be hurting Wrangler sales in any significant way. Rather, it's HELPING sales of extended warranties.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:23 PM   #1975
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What is the difference between the right and left head?
They are the mirror image of each other. No real difference
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:49 PM   #1976
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Anyone else find some irony in the idea that this problem doesn't appear to be hurting Wrangler sales in any significant way. Rather, it's HELPING sales of extended warranties.
LOL! That never even occured to me, but it's certainly true. Maybe they DO have an evil plan....
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:10 PM   #1977
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I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here it is...

We know they've ackowledged the problem, but maybe there's a tidbit or two in the article.

Chrysler dealers fixing Pentastar V6s due to cylinder head issue

Quote:
Automotive News reports that Chrysler is replacing the cylinder heads on certain Pentastar V6 engines with "more robust" parts. The automaker hasn't detailed the problem behind the replacement, but says that there were around 1,300 vehicles across the country over the past few weeks waiting for replacement parts.

A shortage of replacement cylinder heads left many owners out of their vehicle for a week or more with Chrysler paying for rentals in the interim. The company says it is receiving as many as 500 requests per week for the new cylinder heads. In response, Chrysler supplied its service network with around 3,000 new parts to fill the orders. New Pentastar engines are being built with the revised heads.

All told, the automaker says the issue impacts around 7,500 of the 1.5 million Pentastar engines produced during the past two years. Owners have complained of ticking, stalling and other issues from Pentastar-equipped models, though Chrysler says the problem is the combination of a number of variables. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Chrysler has yet to release a technical service bulletin on the issue, though all replacements are being done under warranty.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:11 PM   #1978
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Originally Posted by demarpaint

I think the heat problem is having an effect on the valve guides themselves, and more from combustion chamber heat than oil, or coolant temp heat. The guides are not serviceable and might have been a bit too thin. They get a bit distorted for lack of a better term, and everything related to that valve goes out of whack. JMO
The oil actually acts as a coolant (in addition to being a lubricant). This could be part of the reason for the switch to 5W20 in the 2013s. The thinner oil will more quickly carry away heat from the parts that it flows over.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:23 PM   #1979
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The oil actually acts as a coolant (in addition to being a lubricant). This could be part of the reason for the switch to 5W20 in the 2013s. The thinner oil will more quickly carry away heat from the parts that it flows over.
I'm aware of the oil's functions. Having said that why not back spec the 2012s then? That's the engine with the problem, the jury is still out for the 2013s. I'm thinking CAFE was the reason.
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:00 PM   #1980
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Originally Posted by demarpaint

I'm aware of the oil's functions. Having said that why not back spec the 2012s then? That's the engine with the problem, the jury is still out for the 2013s. I'm thinking CAFE was the reason.
CAFE could have been a consideration but since the EPA ratings didn't change for 2013 on any Wrangler model, it would tend to discount that hypothesis. Unless Chrysler issues a statement or someone leaks it out as to why, we may never know.

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