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Old 10-04-2012, 10:24 PM   #2671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
Although this could be debated 10.2:1 comp ratio is high for anything other than a HEMI head design and usually requires premium gas. However, one would think if detonation is causing this, the knock retard should compensate and pull timing.

Techron is the best shit on the market, unfortunately gas can come from anywhere. I would use top grade only and see what the future holds for this motor.

.02
That's what I thought; excessive knock should be picked up by the knock sensor and the PCM then retards the timing.

Typical scenario: I accelerate on level terrain in 1st to between 2-2.5K rpms and shift to 2nd. As I accelerate in 2nd, I can hear the knock plain as day. Shift from 2nd to 3rd and accelerate, same result.

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Old 10-05-2012, 05:05 AM   #2672
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Originally Posted by m998dna View Post
Although this could be debated 10.2:1 comp ratio is high for anything other than a HEMI head design and usually requires premium gas. However, one would think if detonation is causing this, the knock retard should compensate and pull timing.

Techron is the best shit on the market, unfortunately gas can come from anywhere. I would use top grade only and see what the future holds for this motor.

.02
You can only pull so much timing and besides, the computer is probably programmed to pull a max of 3-4 degrees which can easily be not enough.

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Old 10-05-2012, 05:09 AM   #2673
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Originally Posted by SilverSport View Post
I plan to use Techron every 3K miles.



I know a little knock is normal but the knock gets crazy sometimes, even under normal acceleration. I am gonna go back to mid grade.
A little knock is not normal and if you can hear it , you are doing damage. In fact, you can have pre-ignition that is doing damage and not hear it at all! The best way to tell is to read the plugs.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:30 AM   #2674
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The computer should compensate for lower Octane fuel, to a point, the engine was supposed to be designed to run on Regular gas. If it can't run properly on regular gas then either something is wrong with it, or Chrysler screwed the consumer by telling them the engine can run on regular gas. It's either one or the other. If in fact it needs a higher Octane gas than advertised, they could have opened the doors to possible legal action. JMO
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:51 AM   #2675
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If running mid range gas will help prevent any damage I don't have a problem with that. I don't have any ticking or idling issues with my 2012 right now and I'd like to keep it that way.

Would there be any advantage to going even higher and running premium gas rather than mid range gas?
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:59 AM   #2676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
The computer should compensate for lower Octane fuel, to a point, the engine was supposed to be designed to run on Regular gas.
Exactly.... to a point

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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
If it can't run properly on regular gas then either something is wrong with it, or Chrysler screwed the consumer by telling them the engine can run on regular gas.
I agree
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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
It's either one or the other. If in fact it needs a higher Octane gas than advertised, they could have opened the doors to possible legal action. JMO
Exactly and this is the reason they are being so vague using language like "bad gas and the way the vehicle is driven,"
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:01 AM   #2677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landman View Post
If running mid range gas will help prevent any damage I don't have a problem with that. I don't have any ticking or idling issues with my 2012 right now and I'd like to keep it that way.

Would there be any advantage to going even higher and running premium gas rather than mid range gas?

Definitely wouldn't hurt and here in QC where I am , the difference between 89 and 91 is 8 cents a gallon so cost isn't really a factor.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:01 PM   #2678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landman View Post
If running mid range gas will help prevent any damage I don't have a problem with that. I don't have any ticking or idling issues with my 2012 right now and I'd like to keep it that way.

Would there be any advantage to going even higher and running premium gas rather than mid range gas?
If you read up on Octane requirements running an engine that was designed to run on regular gas, will not benefit from premium gas, contrary to popular belief. OTOH an engine that was designed to run on Premium fuel will not run at its full potential using 87 Octane gas.

Now if the Wrangler is benefiting from higher Octane gas then Chrysler screwed up, and should have spec'd higher octane gas. The problem with that is it might hurt vehicle sales.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:16 PM   #2679
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So what have you guys been telling the dealer when you go in? I'm having the ticking (I think) and no lights are showing up. I have to go anyways for a seatbelt that won't retract. Also I got my 2012 used what do I need to show the dealer to show I have warrenty
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:59 PM   #2680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
If you read up on Octane requirements running an engine that was designed to run on regular gas, will not benefit from premium gas, contrary to popular belief. OTOH an engine that was designed to run on Premium fuel will not run at its full potential using 87 Octane gas.

Now if the Wrangler is benefiting from higher Octane gas then Chrysler screwed up, and should have spec'd higher octane gas. The problem with that is it might hurt vehicle sales.
If the engine is being harmed by running regular octane gas.....Chrysler is in a world of hurt. One of the reasons why I like the Pentestar in the Wrangler is because I WOULD be able to run regular gas.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:40 PM   #2681
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The engine may run fine on quality 87 octane, but Bob Lee's comments about fuel mixes and the way the vehicle is driven leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:48 PM   #2682
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If the engine is being harmed by running regular octane gas.....Chrysler is in a world of hurt. One of the reasons why I like the Pentestar in the Wrangler is because I WOULD be able to run regular gas.
Yes they would be in a world of hurt if regular gas is harming the engine. They could also be in a world of hurt if the engine requires a higher octane gas, and they decided not to mention it in the owners manual and on the window sticker. Mr. Lee's comments could mean in some cryptic way that regular gas is NG for the engine. Give some angry customers some time, and a good lawyer decides its worth a class action effort, Chrysler might just find themselves in court. JMO
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:56 PM   #2683
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Interesting turn in this thread. I'm curious, where do people with "knock problems" live? Could it be something in the regional gas blend? I don't know, but I live in Michigan, buy the cheapest gas I can find, and have never noticed any "knock'. I mostly buy from Kroger or Valero, don't know who supplies them gas. Michigan doesn't sell anything less than 87 octane gas R+M rating.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:15 PM   #2684
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You can only pull so much timing and besides, the computer is probably programmed to pull a max of 3-4 degrees which can easily be not enough.
I would think that the ecm can pull more then 3 or 4* timing when it senses knock,(my unsophisticated harley system pulls more and it is light years behind the auto industry) problem is lots of times too much timing gets pulled and power drops. These probably learn over time and predict knock under certain conditons so eventually they are running with less timing and therefore less power and more heat. I wonder if the heat is what is causing the head problems.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:17 PM   #2685
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Considering there are over 100 different blends of fuel (than the EPA and state EPAs for that) and different additives during different seasons, there very well could be an issue related to "bad" fuel in combination with other factors. But, there is obviously something in the head casting related to cylinder #2 that is affected in the perfect storm, and I bet heat is result and then the cause of the failures. So, if the design is good for a set of assumptions, they can technically say it isn't a design issue, but then it can also be said that maybe the design wasn't robust enough to handle things outside of the expected working parameters -- so they adjusted the head design to compensate (water jacket? metal thickness? exhaust manifold tune?).
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:36 PM   #2686
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I think you guys are getting somewhere! Makes sense!
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:04 AM   #2687
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I have some pinging on steep hills with my 2012 with a manual trans. It's worse in warm weather. Funny thing is it only happens at part throttle. There's another hill where I can floor it in the same gear and same rpm and no pinging. I think it's a mistake in the ECU programming but that's just a guess.

There is some linkage between the warm weather and the pinging and I also suspect the integrated exhaust manifold is the root cause of all the 3.6 problems. Possibly localized overheating in specific driving situations leading to valve guide or valve seat failure. Pinging might be an early phase of the failure chain of events and I expect ultimately I'll see the full blown head failure.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:39 AM   #2688
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I think it has to do with the integrated manifold and the mold in process only because I lemoned out of a 2012 civic si that I was having tons of issues with. It was misfiring since I bought it and was sputtery and had the motor rebuilt at 1900 miles because of misfiring on cylinder 2(sound familiar) which was caused by blow by. The only CEL I had with that was intermitten flickering of it. It just seems weird to me that both are new motor designs and have pretty similar issues. Heres hoping I dont have two vehicles back to back with the same issue. I was a good sport about the first time, if it happens again my Jeep will be parked on one of the Darts outside.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:52 AM   #2689
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According to Bob Lee's comments, the "new" head is more "robust". LOL
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:23 AM   #2690
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I think it has to do with the integrated manifold and the mold in process only because I lemoned out of a 2012 civic si that I was having tons of issues with. It was misfiring since I bought it and was sputtery and had the motor rebuilt at 1900 miles because of misfiring on cylinder 2(sound familiar) which was caused by blow by. The only CEL I had with that was intermitten flickering of it. It just seems weird to me that both are new motor designs and have pretty similar issues. Heres hoping I dont have two vehicles back to back with the same issue. I was a good sport about the first time, if it happens again my Jeep will be parked on one of the Darts outside.
I think you're right, it probably has a lot to do with the head being integrated to the exhaust manifold and extreme heat as a result. The design was to reduce weight, cost, and increase performance. It worked for a few other automakers, it isn't working well in this application. I think they'll nail it sooner or later.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:26 AM   #2691
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I think you're right, it probably has a lot to do with the head being integrated to the exhaust manifold and extreme heat as a result. The design was to reduce weight, cost, and increase performance. It worked for a few other automakers, it isn't working well in this application. I think they'll nail it sooner or later.
Bob Lee flatly denies the integrated exhaust manifold had anything to do with the problem. Who you gonna believe?
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:44 AM   #2692
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Bob Lee flatly denies the integrated exhaust manifold had anything to do with the problem. Who you gonna believe?

LOL who do you believe? He blamed it on just about everything, gas, driving conditions, the weather, the day of the week, the tide, etc. Can you think of anything else? Maybe we can supply him with a few more excuses.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:01 AM   #2693
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Have you guys looked at the block where the heads mate up? ..

When I first looked at this design, aside from the integrated exhaust-in-head concept, I thought WOW. They hogged out all the webbing around the cylinders to save on material and weight.

There was special pride in the savings vs. GM's V6...

I'm saying this is the work of Value Engineering... GM has one of these groups as well.


Quotes from Allpar...

Quote:
The cylinder heads are made of aluminum, with unique left and right castings and integrated exhaust manifolds. The valves have pressed-in powdered metal guides, which are not serviceable. The valvetrain uses roller rocker arms with hydralic lifters. Spark plug tubes are pressed into the heads and sealed in place; the tubes have thin walls, and mechanics were advised to be careful when working with them
Quote:
The open deck makes manufacturing cheaper, at the cost of upper cylinder support ...
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:02 AM   #2694
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Bob Lee flatly denies the integrated exhaust manifold had anything to do with the problem. Who you gonna believe?
kind of like the president just coming out and saying the unemployment rate has fallen under 8% lol.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:50 AM   #2695
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I have some pinging on steep hills with my 2012 with a manual trans. It's worse in warm weather. Funny thing is it only happens at part throttle. There's another hill where I can floor it in the same gear and same rpm and no pinging. I think it's a mistake in the ECU programming but that's just a guess.

There is some linkage between the warm weather and the pinging and I also suspect the integrated exhaust manifold is the root cause of all the 3.6 problems. Possibly localized overheating in specific driving situations leading to valve guide or valve seat failure. Pinging might be an early phase of the failure chain of events and I expect ultimately I'll see the full blown head failure.
After thinking about it some more, I realized my pinging is more likely in warmer weather.

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LOL who do you believe? He blamed it on just about everything, gas, driving conditions, the weather, the day of the week, the tide, etc. Can you think of anything else? Maybe we can supply him with a few more excuses.
I was being my usual smart ass self. I don't believe anything Bob Lee says since he tap dances with an answer or tries to explain it using rocket science.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:44 PM   #2696
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Question

i had a rattle or noise related to injectors and an air whistle on passenger side. i tried to use 91 octane gas and theses noises almost went away instantly.

something is wrong with the pentastar
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:25 PM   #2697
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In the process of researching an upcoming purchase of a 2012 Crush I joined this site and began to follow this thread. As I looked at the window stickers of various Jeeps I noted there are countries of origin listed for the engines and transmissions.

I might have missed it in this thread, but there has been little or no mention of the country of origin of the engines with the head issues.

My understanding is that some engines are made in Mexico and some in the US.

It might be interesting to know if engines from both the US and Mexican plants are afflicted.

All that is needed is for two people to confirm a Country of Origin from each location.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #2698
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I far as I know and have seen on this forums, the Wrangler Pentastar is built in the USA.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:38 PM   #2699
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Here is a quote from website "pentastars.com:

The new Trenton (Mich.) Engine South plant was the first Pentastar V-6 engine , and started up in March 2010. A second plant in Saltillo, Mexico, started up in early 2011. Many parts are machined in Toledo, Ohio (which was originally to have an engine plant, too). Blocks are die-cast and being made in both Mexico and Kokomo. Camshafts used in Trenton are now being made in Trenton — they had been sourced from a vendor in Mexico until December 2011, under a contract inherited from Cerberus.
Chrysler has officially re-opened part of the Trenton North plant, which most recently made 3.3 and 3.8 liter V6 engines, to make parts for the Pentastar — some of which are currently made by a Mexican supplier. Rumors claim a full assembly line will be installed in Trenton North, to boost production of the engines. Some of the 3.7 liter production equipment moved to Trenton, for Pentastar V6 use. By January 27, 2012, one million Pentastar engines had been made.

It does not however distinguish which plants supply engines to which Jeep.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #2700
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We have seen that. Yet everyone who looks at the window sticker for the Wrangler sees the USA as the country of origin for the Pentastar.

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