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Upgraded speakers sound worse than before

7K views 27 replies 10 participants last post by  TerryC6 
#1 ·
After reading many threads regarding upgrading the speakers in standard audio system of a 2013 JK, the result for me is a worse sound than the cheap speakers I removed. I installed 4 Infinity 6032si speakers, did the tweeter mod, and filled the sound bar and front speaker boxes with polyfill. I will say the vibration in the sound bar is gone, but the bass is more of a thud sound than anything else.

I installed these speakers;
Amazon.com : Infinity Reference 6032si 6.5-Inch, Shallow Mount High Performance 150-Watt Two-Way Loudspeaker (Pair) : Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics

Wondering if speaker wire polarity has anything to do with it. The speakers are polarized according to the specs but I could not find a wiring diagram that matched my Jeep so I guessed. It does not seem to be a grounded audio system. The new speakers are 2 ohms but the specs state they are also "true 4 ohms".

Any ideas?
 
#4 ·
Right, I understand the phase concept. Though I guessed as to what was positive and negative, I remained consistent with all four speakers. But I will check again to be sure. I'll also try messing around with just the rear speaker wiring to see if I can improve the sound.
 
#5 ·
Well perhaps in a short amount of time someone like Pressurized will chime in and have the answer you need.
You mentioned the sound being worse. Can you describe worse in what way. Distorted, shrill, muddy etc
Is it All 4 ? How about the tweeters?
Different isn't always better or worse sometimes its just a shock initially if its different enough. Takes a little time to adjust.
 
#6 ·
Welcome to the money pit that is 12v audio. Open your wallet, it never ends.

Edit:
Here's a little help.

Thise speakers are 150 watt. Did you connect them to an external amp or directly to the head unit?

If you plugged them to the head unit without an amp, they are being under driven and will sound like ass. You'll also ruin them.

You need an amp. Long story short.
 
#7 ·
While under driving a speaker is certainly bad, the "150w" stat mentioned is simply its capacity really means nothing anyway. They are efficient speakers and should be fine. Would be helpful to know what factory system they have been plugged in to.
 
#9 ·
What I was referring to was ... Not enough power is worse than too much. Not enough power to a power hungry (inefficient) speaker would in fact guarantee a poor result. Bad sound, distortion and possible damage. I was not referring to your observations as not mattering. Of course an auxiliary amp would be great but many have apparently done this modification without adding amplification with positive results which leads one to believe it may be something unique to this particular install. Perhaps a phase issue, cold solder connection, bad driver. Who knows. I alluded to perhaps its perception sometimes different is perceived as worse.
 
#11 ·
More power (if clean) is always better than not enough.
That isn't addressing the Op issue.
Is it or isn't true that this install has been done by members of WF without adding amplification and a positive result?
If the answer is yes than something is uniquely amiss in this install and that is where the focus would be.
 
#14 ·
This is where you are getting confused. It does in fact address the issue.

Perception is reality, just because lots of people have done this "upgrade" with "positive" results doesn't mean anything. I promise after years of car audio experience, there is no way putting those speakers with a stock head unit without amplification would be satisfactory to me by any stretch.

The amount of power given to a speaker has no business being guessed at. The output of the amp/headunit should be measured at maximum volume with a voltmeter. Get the amps and volts and you can convert it to wattage.

I promise if you did this, the maximum output of the headunit wouldn't be 50 watts.

The proper way to do this, would be to put in an amp, put a voltimeter on the output of one channel, run the conversion to calculate the volts needed that would equal 300 watts (which is what two of these speakers wired in series would need), then turn up the output dial on the amp until the multimeter read that number. Then leave it.

Everyone doing this is likely feeding those speakers about 6 times less than they require.

I think the formula is V=square root of W*O. (V=voltage, W=Watts, O=ohms.) But it's been a while so don't quote me might have to google it.
 
#13 ·
I did the speaker upgrade thing in a 2012 Wrangler Sport. I changed from stock speakers to kicker speakers in the sound bar. I also thought it was worse than stock.
That is a useful observation to the macro point of the thread. Understanding that "better" or "worse" is subjective. I would imagine the Op as well as others who contemplate this Mod would find details helpful...
Like-
What system was modded, what componants were used, was anything else done at the same time, etc.
I thought (possibly mistakenly)
I had read mostly positive reviews (here on WF) about this mod.
I find all the different versions of the JK stereo a bit perplexing, one factor that would be worth knowing/mentioning is what amplification is in some or all of the stock set-ups.130,430,730, Premium, Base etc etc
I imagine that could/would be a determiner of what might work or not work.
Nothing like "Facts" to help clear up an issue.
 
#15 ·
This is not unusual for Forums. Op posts gets several replies many going down the rabbit hole of that particular topics experts and the Op isn't even participating. I do not refute that there is mathematical aspects to audio - I have been in the Hobby since 1979.
I also know from experience that sometimes things look one way on paper and end up very different in practical application.
A current AB current push/pull tubes vs solid state acoustic reflex vs bass reflex - whatever.
In this case all I was saying is - "some folks" have done this Mod (do a search, it's three pages_ and reported great results. Here - one person has said something ain't right, the other used different drivers. Maybe maybe something else is at fault (it has been alluded to) phase, connection, faulty driver.
I'm not going to get into a math debate with anyone because over the past 35 years that debate has gotten old. Engineers that design systems will admit they put it on paper and then they take it into an anechoic chamber and measure and listen - its science BUT its ART too.
I have built systems costing $40,000 that killed systems that were $250,000 and $110,000 systems that would make you cry.
Did it by ear NOT with a calculator.
Home audio is different but the principles apply to all audio.
I will be dicking around with my JK system in the next week or so and will definately report my observations regarding the sound realizing that it's subjective - but based on listening experience. Do I expect a miracle? No.
The math AND the experience don't reveal that to be possible we'll see if its better or worse.
In my Rubicon I had an Alpine HU with a 5 channel Alpine amp. JlAudio MBQuart and I custom made my sub enclosure (using math and measuring with sound signals) Home My system is all Mark Levinson and Revel last system was Genesis 350's Audio Research and Kimber Select Cable.
Several here (you included) obviously have a background in Audio - How we approach it may or may not be different but we can agree on the goal - best possible sound we can get based on what we are willing to do.
BTW- I'm not confused. Hopefully the dialogue can stay respectful - if not, count me out.
Peace. Good talking audio, hope the feeling is mutual.
 
#16 ·
Meant no disrespect. I don't know you, so I wasn't trying to imply that I knew more than you, or that you didn't know what you were talking about. I just thought that maybe you were missing the point of what the OP was saying and what I was trying to say. No animosity in any way was intended in my disagreement.

I was simply trying to say, having no experience with this particular set up other than some anecdotal information, that the practice and the math were way off. It's sort of, in my mind, someone saying they made it from point A to point B driving in X amount of hours. When in actuality, even driving 150mph you couldn't ever come close to that time.

In other words, it sounds great, but in my mind something just doesn't stir the Kool-Aide.
 
#17 ·
A couple of comments...

The systems I have had good success with have been the upgrade Alpine and Infinity systems, which do have external amplifiers. I personally have not had a base system to do comparisons of speakers. The upgrade systems do have a subwoofer so low end performance from the 6.5's hasn't been the priority. The intent is to gain clarity at higher volumes which is exactly what we get using the Infinity 6032si or JBL P662s on the upgrade systems.

That said, it still seems like something might be incorrect in the OP's installation. There should still be a significant improvement in efficiency and clarity and it appears that is not the result. There are numerous posts of successful speaker upgrades on the base systems.

As for power handling rating, that is a measurement of how much power a speaker can take while the motor structure can still control the cones and not exceed max travel which will cause damage to the speaker. While under-driving isn't necessarily desirable, it isn't a problem unless you are clipping the amplifier by exceeding it's capabilities while not reaching the speakers limits. Otherwise, every time we listened at lower volumes, we would be under driving the speakers...

As RubiconSS said, we can put math to it all day and sometimes it works as planned. Other times the black magic and juju just doesn't come together. I think we may have found that on the Cadence sub experiment. It looks good on paper, but the enclosure and maybe the amp doesn't match up well.
 
#18 ·
I will add my first hand observations in a week or so (when all the parts arrive from various points on the Amazon) - I will not be providing anechoic chamber data readings as I attempted to pull my Jeep in last night and Bam! No more Ane's or Choic's anyway.... it'll be my impressions "by-ear" based on a smattering of listening material. I will be interested in increases's in clarity and volume (perhaps) sometimes the human brain confuses distortion with Volume so, clearer may not sound as loud, we'll see.
No matter what I thank Pressurized for his help and time (good guy) and for what, $50-60 bucks - we'll see what we get.
It's always fun talking audio so - it's all good everybody.
 
#19 ·
To test phase use a 9V battery, or any battery that will "pop test" the factory speaker. I use a 12v cordless drill battery and alligator test leads. Remember which way the connector went on the speaker. Connect the leads to the battery and touch them to the connector on the speaker. You are looking for the speaker to move out. The positive lead on the battery will show you the positive lead on the speaker. Match the positive lead on the speaker to the positive lead on the factory harness.

Or you could go here:

Jeep Wiring

:)
 
#20 ·
To test phase use a 9V battery, or any battery that will "pop test" the factory speaker. I use a 12v cordless drill battery and alligator test leads. Remember which way the connector went on the speaker. Connect the leads to the battery and touch them to the connector on the speaker. You are looking for the speaker to move out. The positive lead on the battery will show you the positive lead on the speaker. Match the positive lead on the speaker to the positive lead on the factory harness.

Or you could go here:

Jeep Wiring

:)
^ This, perfect.
 
#22 ·
Ok so where do the wires to the sound bar route? I'm trying to figure out how you're going to insert an amp into the mix to drive those speakers without running all new wiring all over the damn place. Also where to put one so it doesn't disappear on the first day of spring with the top down.
 
#25 ·
I promised feedback/observations HERE. I posted in a searchable thread as well but, suffice it to say - after the unexpected arrival today I installed the Infinitys and a Mopar adapter harness (part# 72-6514) have not done the tweeter mod (yet) - just the sound bar speakers and the transformation was dramatically good. Not even close to stock in presence, presentation, imaging, depth, detail and overall enjoyment.
I tweaked (adjusted) my polyfill already present but never heard with the stock (mess) NOW it made a difference.
As I say, for anyone doing this IF they do not experience a dramatic improvement then we need to work through it step by step and isolate the problem because this improvement is so startling my Wife came out to the garage and sat and listened. She calls it the way she sees/hears it, said
"Thank God you fixed that, sounded like crap before".
Tremendous depth, clarity, punch, articulation and detail - nothing like it was. Can't wait to wake the fronts up with the tweeter mod.
Thanks again to Pressurized and those who were willing to talk audio because it's ok to do that even when its Jeeps (-:
 
#26 ·
I had no idea this thread was getting this much attention, how amazing! I was off the grid a few days and back.

The head unit is the original factory, no power amp involved. These speakers are under-driven IMO. I connected one to a 200 watt PA and just held it in place in the sound bar to get the proper bass reflex and it sounded like a 100 watt speaker should sound.

It must be subjective as some of the posts I read (unless I read them incorrectly) showed an acceptable improvement over the original cheap speakers without any other upgrade. There were improvements, the vibration is gone and they do sound a bit clearer. But the thudding bass (sorry, no other way for me to describe it) is just too annoying. So for me, yes there was improvement I guess, but not an acceptable one.

I guess I'll be opening my wallet, for that head unit and power amp (figured I would but thought maybe, just maybe, it might be good enough).
 
#27 ·
Discussing improvements in ones Jeep of notable margin quality wise but not $$ wise shouldn't be a surprise.
While there are aspects of audio that are subjective (whether you like the sound or dislike the sound) there is a large aspect that is highly objective once the individual listening is educated in the realm of audio.
What I mean by this is, there are aspects of presentation, sound, tonality that some might find highly agreeable while another would find it objectionable - that is the subjective part. Whether a system is forward presenting or laid back, shill and aggressive or warm, detailed vs muddy etc - is able to be discerned and described in objective terms.
The speakers don't "make" music they simply produce analog information (sound) we can hear from digital information reproduced from a source (CD, Sat signal, etc.) The information is there, whether we can hear it or not or like the way it is reproduced or not is where the rub occurs.
The "different" speakers absolutely produce more of the information in clearer more audible and relatively accurate terms than the stock speakers.
The Alpine Premium system (130) has an amplifier, would the sytem benefit from a more powerful, higher quality amp? Probably. I say probably because as I have said before... more expensive or "better" doesn't always turn out sounding better. In home audio as an example there is a company called Krell the Amps can cost $50,000 and IMO sound like crap depending on ALL of the other pieces up and down stream. More isn't always better.
In car audio, while different in ways the principles are the same.
So, not trying to sell anybody, don't have a dog in this hunt. Change stuff, don't change stuff - no matter.
I changed out the sound bar speakers, polyfill has been applied correctly, the connections are correct and everything is tightened. The sound is great and significantly improved.
Next, will be the tweeter mod and we'll see what we hear.
Later
 
#28 ·
Before you spend a bunch of money lets make sure everything is okay. As far as thudding bass goes turn you bass volume down some. 6 1/2 inch speakers are not very good a bass unless you spend a whole lot of money. True bass should always be handle by a sub woofer.

Now lets make sure you don't have a bad driver and all the speaker are in phase. Adjust fade to full front and then balance to full right. Don't turn the volume up, keep it low. While playing music you know real well does it sound right. If everything is okay set the balance left and repeat. Assuming everything is okay set balance to center. If the sound is muddled then your speakers are out of phase. Now repeat the same procedure for the sound bar. When that is complete set fade to center. If the sound is muddled here you are out of phase between front and rear. This will also identify a bad or weak driver.

The speaker you bought have a very good sensitivity, 93db. What this means is they will produce 93db of sound from 1 watt measured 3 ft away. The speakers are 60watts RMS and 180 watts peak. I am guess that the base head unit puts out no more than 20 watts. When you have the music turned up you are probably clipping the signal and that could be causing you thump. I doubt the stock unit has any head room at all.
Does the thump go away if you turn the music down, say playing while the vehicle is still at home?
 
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