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Old 08-15-2012, 02:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by zaitcev View Post
The problem with all this demanding is that it was proven time and time again that people LIE all the time.
I also believe there are more talking than buying. Many people when they saw my yellow sports car, they said they love the color and wished to have one... and yet they all drive silver, white, black...
People are conservative when they need to put down the real money and people will look at higher sticker price first rather than the little fuel cost they might save, which also will take many years to make the difference up.

And unlike other countries which have been having many diesel options, diesel is not popular in US and US people are known to reluctant to change (probably the only country that hasn't adopted the metric system)

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Old 08-15-2012, 08:46 AM   #32
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mcdull, that is why I started this post. People talk all the time saying that they want a diesel. I for one would buy one in a heartbeat. I would pay the up front cost because I want the low end torque and I believe there are a lot of people here in the US that would buy a diesel wrangler in a second if they offered it.

If the people who want a diesel in the wrangler would stand up and let Jeep know that they want a diesel. I bet they would do it, just we have to show them.

Like I stated before on Nov 1, 2012 lets us, who want a diesel, go to our local dealership and show them we want a diesel in the wrangler just like everywhere else in the world.

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Old 08-15-2012, 08:53 AM   #33
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The point I'm seeing other then the fact the diesel cost more... if the fact that (I/We) would have a bio-diesel system installed in the shop.. thus redusing the cost of getting the fuel at the pump.. Thus becoming independant and self serving..
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:03 AM   #34
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Be careful what you ask for!

Well, I am a fan of diesels, but what if they do like they did with the Liberty back in 2005 & 2006? That was a disaster. The EVIC read great fuel economy, but the calculator proved that it was pretty dismal mpg for a diesel. The Liberty was just too heavy with horrible aerodynamics to produce any real good mpg. (That diesel Liberty was about the biggest turd I have ever owned!) The Grand Cherokee is getting a V6 diesel, so maybe it will be better than the Italian sourced one in the Liberty.

You also need to take into account the percentage of diesels overseas compared to the US. Also, regulations on emissions and safety as well as other aspects of vehicle design can make it cost INeffective to bring it over here legal for sale in US.

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Originally Posted by chadzter View Post
I say that we stand up and shout that we want the wrangler to have a diesel engine. We all have been wishing for one for years and Jeep never listens. If they can put a diesel engine in the wrangler and sell it over seas then they can sell one here.

I hear that Jeep is thinking about putting a diesel in the Grand to test the market for diesels. I ask how many people buy Grands in the US want a diesel. I would love to see a diesel Grand, but I want a diesel Wrangler. Jeep is also thinking about a 4 cylinder engine in the Wrangler, this might help in the mpg area but you have 5000+.

So I say,
On November 1, 2012 everyone that wants a diesel in the Wrangler drive down to your local Jeep dealership and prove to Jeep/Chrysler that they're missing out on large market share people.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:46 AM   #35
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Well, I am a fan of diesels, but what if they do like they did with the Liberty back in 2005 & 2006? That was a disaster. The EVIC read great fuel economy, but the calculator proved that it was pretty dismal mpg for a diesel. The Liberty was just too heavy with horrible aerodynamics to produce any real good mpg. (That diesel Liberty was about the biggest turd I have ever owned!) The Grand Cherokee is getting a V6 diesel, so maybe it will be better than the Italian sourced one in the Liberty.

You also need to take into account the percentage of diesels overseas compared to the US. Also, regulations on emissions and safety as well as other aspects of vehicle design can make it cost INeffective to bring it over here legal for sale in US.
If they can put it in a Grand Cherokee then they can put it in the Wrangler. For the Grand they have to try to make it "more refine", look at the people who buy the Grand. For the Wrangler as long as it works with enough low end torgue to twist Dana 60 into a pretzel. We would be happy.

The wrangler would be easier to package a diesel in than the Grand: space, solid also, heave duty springs, ...
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:53 PM   #36
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Posted this question a while ago in another thread, never really saw an answer ...

Why all the desire for a diesel in a Wrangler?

More torque on a stock rig? For what? Towing? Lack of torque isn't the problem, it's the tow bar.

Maybe the ability to add larger tires? Current engines turn huge aftermarket tires with no problem (assuming a re-gear).

More torque for wheeling? See re-gear above.

Better MPG? Any cost savings in MPG will be eaten up by the ~$2,500 purchase price bump and higher fuel costs. Using the math outlined above, it'd take 5 years just to break even.

Cost of maintenance is probably almost a wash; while the longevity and durability is certainly there, repairs are more costly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in the diesel engine in proper applications. But what would be the real-world benefit of a diesel engine in a Wrangler?
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:17 PM   #37
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Yes you should. You also need to factor in the large price premium for diesel engine options. Using a Ram for example the diesel engine option adds a mere $8k to the price tag over a gasser. That's another $8k subject to depreciation expense.

Now let's factor in the of repairs. Have you ever priced injector replacement on a diesel engine?
Have you ever even Owned a Diesel or are you just going by what you are Reading on the Internet or in a Magazine? I'm not talking about your Friend, a Family Member, Co-Worker, ect... You.

...and it's not $8k for just an Engine, ALOT more stuff comes with that $8k Price Tag.

You Sound like the Typical Person that is still Stuck on what Diesels USED TO be and Refuse to Open you Mind to what they are now.

Depreciation and Diesel don't even Belong in the same Sentence. Show me a Vehicle Powered by something other than Diesel that can have over 300k Miles on it, be 10 Years Old, and still Pull in over $15k-$20k on a Dealer Lot.
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Duramaxxed

Have you ever even Owned a Diesel or are you just going by what you are Reading on the Internet or in a Magazine? I'm not talking about your Friend, a Family Member, Co-Worker, ect... You.

...and it's not $8k for just an Engine, ALOT more stuff comes with that $8k Price Tag.

You Sound like the Typical Person that is still Stuck on what Diesels USED TO be and Refuse to Open you Mind to what they are now.

Depreciation and Diesel don't even Belong in the same Sentence. Show me a Vehicle Powered by something other than Diesel that can have over 300k Miles on it, be 10 Years Old, and still Pull in over $15k-$20k on a Dealer Lot.
X2. I'm on my second Duramax and would buy another in a second. When I traded my 05 LLY for my 12 LML, the diesel engine option actually added more to the resale value of the truck than the option originally cost. The diesel engine actually appreciated. The dealer actually sold my 7 year old, 70K mile used diesel pickup for more than a brand new 1/2 ton gasser.

I don't haul or tow anything, I just like the torque characteristics, fuel economy and resale value of a diesel. When it comes time to replace my gasser Avalanche in a couple years, the replacement will probably be another HD diesel pickup.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:53 PM   #39
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Just for the record, I work for an oilfield trucking company that runs about 400-500 trucks. Primarily offroad type of driving- short haul- lots of idle time- very seldom run engines steady rpm for any length of time. For all deisel engines manufactured 2008 and later; we have a LOT of problems that are emissions related. You are probably not going to get the trusty 2005 model year service without problems. We keep a Kenworth warranty man working in our company shop five days a week doing the warranty work right there, rather than to have to take the unit back to the dealer every time. Something to think about.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:03 PM   #40
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I currently own a VW Toureg diesel. I've owned three diesel trucks (2 Dodge Cummins, 1 Duramax). I loved each of them and have had no expensive repairs with any of them.

I would love a diesel Wrangler. Torque for creeping along trails and turning tall tires along with outstanding fuel mileage while creeping around. I'm also a testament to someone willing to actually pay for what I want.

Unfortunately, I've recently read in a diesel magazine that the OEMs are paying just as much for the diesel after-engine treatment hardware as the entire powerplant for the U.S. market. I don't think that is necessary (yet) in other countries. The high initial purchase price coupled with high fuel prices make diesel a hard decision for many. The economic payback takes a long time to justify the commitment. For me, it's been worth it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:13 PM   #41
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wonna diesel?? move to europe
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:26 AM   #42
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Better yet....just buy a 12' wrangler, and within a couple thousand miles you won't be able to tell if it is a gas or a diesel at idle
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Slideshow
I currently own a VW Toureg diesel. I've owned three diesel trucks (2 Dodge Cummins, 1 Duramax). I loved each of them and have had no expensive repairs with any of them.

I would love a diesel Wrangler. Torque for creeping along trails and turning tall tires along with outstanding fuel mileage while creeping around. I'm also a testament to someone willing to actually pay for what I want.

Unfortunately, I've recently read in a diesel magazine that the OEMs are paying just as much for the diesel after-engine treatment hardware as the entire powerplant for the U.S. market. I don't think that is necessary (yet) in other countries. The high initial purchase price coupled with high fuel prices make diesel a hard decision for many. The economic payback takes a long time to justify the commitment. For me, it's been worth it.
The Europeans have been using the same after treatment systems (DEF and DPF) for years so the technology is well proven. DPF can be problematic for vehicles used in mostly stationary or extended low speed operation since it doesn't allow for automatic regeneration of the DPF.

While proven, the reality is that these systems add (sometimes significant) cost to the price of a vehicle. Additionally, the costs of EPA certification, establishing service capability at dealers, etc. all need to be recouped and figured into the price of the diesel option. In price sensitive segments, the cost of the option could make the take rate too low to make a valid business case. Given the number of people that ask, I'm sure Chrysler has performed market research to see if a business case exists for the Wrangler to have a diesel in the US.

A big consideration weighing in favor of diesel is CAFE and it could actually help keep the price of a diesel option down. If too many of these gas guzzling (relative to other products) Wranglers are being sold, the sales weighted CAFE number could take a hit. Chrysler might have to offer a diesel and incentivize it to be able to sell enough of them to bring the sales weighted average CAFE back up. Or they could just slap cash on the hood of a more efficient gasoline powered model or perhaps add a 4 cyl Wrangler.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:20 AM   #44
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You Sound like the Typical Person that is still Stuck on what Diesels USED TO be and Refuse to Open you Mind to what they are now.
What diesels used to be are better then they are now:
- New diesel MPGs have come down as emissions complexity has increased
- New diesels are incredibly complex with DPFs and high temp burnoff cycles, Urea injection, problematic injectors, ultra high fuel rail pressures, etc
- This has caused the price premium for diesels to sky rocket. ($8-10K is common)
- This has also caused repair prices to skyrocket and good luck finding a tech that really knows how to fix them

Diesels are great for highway driving/heavy towing. I don't consider a Wrangler dovetails this usage model.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:20 AM   #45
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Really, the wrangler does fit the need for a diesel?

The wrangler is one heavy vehicle with a large drivetrain loss and large heavy tires stock. Then we go and add heavy bumper, bigger heavier tires, gear, stuff, .... by the time we are done your looking at 5000+. That to me sounds like need for a diesel that are design to haul heavy things down the road.

To all the nay say'er you are entitle to your opinion, if you don't want a diesel then don't buy one. If diesel are terrible then why would they even make them in the first place.

If you want a diesel in a jeep wrangler then lets show it!
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:23 AM   #46
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Man that would be fantastic. Not saying I would/could afford one.

I just don't understand why not the wrangler when every other vehicle can have one?
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:30 AM   #47
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I think the option should be there, sure. But I wouldn't pay for it until I get my midlife crisis lol
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:36 AM   #48
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I'd buy a new diesel wrangler in a second! I can imagine the hp with the right programmer would be incredible! To be able to tow a small camp trailer up a freeway grade without the trans shifting constantly...nice!
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:04 AM   #49
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My last word on this subject: After owning a VW TDI I've been convenced that Diesel is the only alternitive for me and OurJeepLife.. In the knowing that I can easy set up a bio diesil system in the shop and knwo that "If" soemthing wat to happen I can make my own fuel.. But It's not just if the Jeep came with a diesel before hand.. it's a challange to have soemthing liek this done and to make Mopar and manufatures realize that we need to branch out and off the "same trail". Going out and having soemthing differnt makes me want one no matter what.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:27 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by WXman
"Diesel fuel costs more."

It's 3rd grade math folks.

The average U.S. driver puts 15,000 miles per year on a vehicle.

Using my personal, not hear-say, real world results: 26MPGs mixed driving for a CRD, 17 MPGs mixed driving for a gas Jeep...

576 gallons per year for CRD
882 gallons per year for gasoline

If gas is $3.50, that's $3,087 spent per year on fuel
If diesel is $4.50, that's $2,592 spent per year on fuel

That's almost $500 savings per year with diesel fuel a full DOLLAR higher than gasoline. Currently, diesel is NOT a full dollar higher than gasoline and so the savings would be much higher. You could possibly save as much as $1,000 per year on fuel alone if you had a CRD engine right now.
The CRD from the Liberty no longer meets emissions in the US. The fuel mileage drops off substantially when you add all the needed emissions components. Fuel mileage on 3/4 & 1 ton diesel trucks have been decreasing over the past few years.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #51
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The CRD from the Liberty no longer meets emissions in the US. The fuel mileage drops off substantially when you add all the needed emissions components. Fuel mileage on 3/4 & 1 ton diesel trucks have been decreasing over the past few years.
That may be true for the RAM but not for the other brands. The addition of the DEF system has actually resulted in INCREASED fuel economy on the other brands. The DEF system cleans up NOx in the exhaust so the engine tuning no longer has to be compromised as much to manage NOx. I owned a pre DEF 2005 Duramax and my 2012 gets a solid 2 mpg better than the 2005 despite being heavier (crew cab vs ext cab) and making much more power.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:32 PM   #52
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That may be true for the RAM but not for the other brands. The addition of the DEF system has actually resulted in INCREASED fuel economy on the other brands. The DEF system cleans up NOx in the exhaust so the engine tuning no longer has to be compromised as much to manage NOx. I owned a pre DEF 2005 Duramax and my 2012 gets a solid 2 mpg better than the 2005 despite being heavier (crew cab vs ext cab) and making much more power.
What is your calculated mileage towing and unloaded? You are in the minority.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:48 PM   #53
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I don't tow but I'm 17-18 in mixed commuting and 21-22 on trips. I hand calculate my mileage and always fill to the top of the neck (usually from the same pump). My experience (slightly better mpg than pre DEF models) is consistent with other Duramax owners on the discussion forums although their actual numbers vary with their driving style. There aren't any pre DEF numbers to compare to on the Ford because the Scorpion motor was introduced with DEF. The Ford motor seems to be a tad more efficient than the Duramax based upon what people report on the forums, but that may be because Ford offers a 3.31 ratio where all GMs are 3.73.

I tell people that my Duramax is my "economy car" because it actually gets better mileage than my 5.3L gasser Avalanche. It will probably be more efficient than my Jeep.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:55 PM   #54
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I do not want a diesel. Been around them all my life, won't own one for Dd unless I had to pull equipment.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #55
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Can a gas Jeep tow a flatbed with a 4x4 toy on the back and go across the scales at 11,000 lbs. GCW and hand calculate 16 miles per gallon while doing it? Answer: No. I actually had people coming out of the Flying J to see what my Jeep was and how I was doing what I was doing and ask why I was in line for the diesel pumps. And that was a KJ. Can you imagine an even stronger version of that engine in a JK?

My only point is that a CRD would add even more versatility to the JK. The 3.8 got the job done. The 3.6 gets the same job done better. A 3.0 CRD would get it done the best.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:53 PM   #56
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Can a gas Jeep tow a flatbed with a 4x4 toy on the back and go across the scales at 11,000 lbs. GCW and hand calculate 16 miles per gallon while doing it? Answer: No. I actually had people coming out of the Flying J to see what my Jeep was and how I was doing what I was doing and ask why I was in line for the diesel pumps. And that was a KJ. Can you imagine an even stronger version of that engine in a JK?

My only point is that a CRD would add even more versatility to the JK. The 3.8 got the job done. The 3.6 gets the same job done better. A 3.0 CRD would get it done the best.
Sorry but a JK with a diesel won't do this either. The engine isn't the limiting factor since it can tow a lot more in other platforms even with taller gear ratios.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:09 PM   #57
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OK, so people are talking about the price difference for the diesel option; it being too expensive. Lets look at the Jeep UK website.

Wrangler 2 door 2.8L CRD GBP 21,800.- and 35 MPG
Wrangler 2 door 3.6L GBP 21,450.- and 25 MPG (higher octane than in the US)

So it is GBP 350.- difference or USD 550.-

With the MPG advantage the payback is within a year.......
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:44 PM   #58
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Posted this question a while ago in another thread, never really saw an answer ...

Why all the desire for a diesel in a Wrangler?

More torque on a stock rig? For what? Towing? Lack of torque isn't the problem, it's the tow bar.

Maybe the ability to add larger tires? Current engines turn huge aftermarket tires with no problem (assuming a re-gear).

More torque for wheeling? See re-gear above.

Better MPG? Any cost savings in MPG will be eaten up by the ~$2,500 purchase price bump and higher fuel costs. Using the math outlined above, it'd take 5 years just to break even.

Cost of maintenance is probably almost a wash; while the longevity and durability is certainly there, repairs are more costly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in the diesel engine in proper applications. But what would be the real-world benefit of a diesel engine in a Wrangler?
Re-gearing is a solution but at a cost. First, gears aren't cheap and you have to do two hubs. In addition, I don't know how to set the backlash and apparently the mechanic who I paid to install the 3.73s on my Mustang didn't either....

The re-gearing also hurts the mileage so it increases the difference between the two averages.

On the other hand, diesel has been selling for more than 87 octane recently but, then again, the mpg difference is even greater when you consider that 10% ethanol 87 is becoming so prevalent.

I would have ordered my JKUR that I am waiting on now with a diesel if it was a good one. The extra cost is easier to swallow when the vehicle is that expensive in the first place.

A poorly designed diesel is something that I am definitely NOT interested in.
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:32 AM   #59
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So Many of you guys wanting a diesel Wrangler,
On the flip side, over here in the UK that's virtually all you can get, there's only a handful of V6 petrols for sale (unless you can afford new), I managed to get one and well happy with it, petrol is very expensive here and I'm getting 17.6mpg at the moment but don't care as driving my wrangler puts a smile on my face.
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:37 AM   #60
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Question: does it really cost $8000 more for the manufacture to install a diesel engine in a RAM truck, as an example? I know it cost us the consumer, but come on??? What an up charge!

My vote, There should be a Diesel option for the Wrangler & Unlimted.

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