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Old 10-13-2011, 11:59 PM   #31
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I'm not...never have in 40 years, never will........
Me either! If it didn't exist when I was born it is just fancy pants gimmickery. I also do not believe in or use the internets, cell phones or CD's. 8 track was good enough for my dad, it's good enough for me.

Though I am not having much luck finding a faceplate and wiring harness for a Pioneer TP-252.

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Old 10-14-2011, 12:04 AM   #32
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Me either! If it didn't exist when I was born it is just fancy pants gimmickery. I also do not believe in or use the internets, cell phones or CD's. 8 track was good enough for my dad, it's good enough for me.

Though I am not having much luck finding a faceplate and wiring harness for a Pioneer TP-252.
You got one of those fancy pants indash units? That is your problem. Real 8-tracks hang UNDER the dash or are mounted under the seat.

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Old 10-14-2011, 12:12 AM   #33
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normal? - 3,000 miles or 7,000 like the owners manual says??
I have always tried to get it done every 3,000, but I have never used synthetic oil before.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:32 AM   #34
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Amsoil, with using their filter, claims one year or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first. I run it in my TJ, the wife's liberty, and my Hemi Ram. I change oil once a year, so that cuts down on the expense. None of the vehicles are severe duty. The TJ is the only one that has Amsoil in the diffs, T-case, and manual trans. I hope to do that to the other vehicle soon.

I've been running synthetic for a long time in all my newer vehicles. I started out using Mobil 1 and didn't start the extended change intervals with Amsoil until fairly recently (last 5-6 years). I kept the 3000 mile change interval on a couple turbo cars I had because the heat they produce. I can't speak to much to mileage since I've been running it for so long that I can't really compare it to conventional oil. I am comfortable and confident with using it. My 4.0 I-6 is quiet and smooth. With respect to mileage I will say this: My TJ gets around 15 MPG city (lot of stop and go on congested rush hour freeways), and has done 19 MPG highway. I had a V8 2WD Dakota (synth in engine) with a 3.90:1 rear and a 5-speed that got about 21 MPG on the freeway (and ran a 14.7 in the 1/4 mile). The Ram - forget it. I don't regularly drive the Liberty so I haven't tracked it.

On the flip side my mother-in-law's '98 ZJ (4.0) has never had a drop of synthetic in it and runs fine at 208,000 miles. So, it's a personal and economical choice, but I believe that it is better for the engine/trans/T-case/diffs), but being vigilant about oil changes in all components is key.

I've heard stories that when you tear down a high mileage engine that ran on synthetic all its life you will notice the lack of wear compared to a similar engine that ran conventional oil. Never saw it for myself, though.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:50 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by rjk5828
normal? - 3,000 miles or 7,000 like the owners manual says??
I have always tried to get it done every 3,000, but I have never used synthetic oil before.
3000 is fine. The 7000 number in your owners manual is a number not to be exceeded.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:44 AM   #36
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I've been using synthetic oil in at least one vehicle I currently own for over 23 years now. There are a few misconceptions here. Synthetic oil does "thicken" when cold, all oils do. Having said that it does flow better than Dino oil when cold, and offers slightly better start up protection. Keep in mind no oil is fully protecting an engine until it reaches normal operating temperature. So if you are a car buff don't punch it out until about 20 minutes or more after starting the engine because it can take that long for the oil to reach operating temps. Depends on the engine. Yes the oil takes longer than the anti-freeze to reach normal operating temps, so a temp gauge showing normal in 5 minutes doesn't mean the oil is warm enough. Countless studies have been done on this.

0w-xx will flow better than a 5W-xx or a 10W-xx. Synthetic oil protects better in extreme hot or extreme cold, and has a better additive pack and base stock than Dino oil so it "can" be used longer. Well cared for engines can last a very long time on Dino oil. Having said all that I prefer Synthetic oil, until my vehicle reaches beater status, and then I use a cheaper dino oil. Opinions vary.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:49 AM   #37
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Do you get as much Freudian "tingle" outta saying "HEMI" or "KEVLAR" as you do by

"minivan"-

Tellus, what weight oil do you use in your 3.8L/3.6L ??

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In the 2 oil changes I have done so far in my 3.8 "MINIVAN" engine I have used 5-20 just because it's called for. Could use 5-30 as I do in the super duty fords and they call for 5-20 also. The 5-20 is supposed to get better fuel millage, but it probably isn't enough that you could ever tell.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:46 AM   #38
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You probably noticed that I mentioned earlier that I've been using the Mobile one 5w-30, since my first oil change at about 1000 miles and-


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In the 2 oil changes I have done so far in my 3.8 "MINIVAN" engine I have used 5-20 just because it's called for. Could use 5-30 as I do in the super duty fords and they call for 5-20 also. The 5-20 is supposed to get better fuel millage, but it probably isn't enough that you could ever tell.
My jeep, having been in the Nv desert for the last 2˝ yrs-

Still doesn't use a drop--

A cure, the right thing to do?? --I doubtit, but it has worked for me and

My '93 LT1 Corvette, demanded Mobil One, 5w-20 and I did use that, the Vette spent most of its time in the 3000 to 6000 RPM range-

My JKUR, spends most of its time in the 1500 to 3000 RPM, at 90 to 110° F, so the 5w-30 has done me well

Although I use Valvoline 75w-140 in the diffs-

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Old 10-14-2011, 09:10 AM   #39
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Amsoil, with using their filter, claims one year or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first. I run it in my TJ, the wife's liberty, and my Hemi Ram. I change oil once a year, so that cuts down on the expense. None of the vehicles are severe duty.
This is extremely foolish if you are driving any of them more than 6,000-8000 miles per year. I change the oil in my Lightning once a year as well, but it only sees about 1500 mile per year on a busy year. 25,000 miles or one year is absurd for 99.9% of all vehicles on the road using Amsoil.

Every one of those vehicles is severe duty as defined in the service manual. Maintaining them like they are in normal service is a bad plan.

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The 5-20 is supposed to get better fuel millage, but it probably isn't enough that you could ever tell.
It's barely enough to even measure. When Ford started going to 5w20 across their fleet in 2001 their testing showed 0.1 mpg improvement, but in the CAFE environment at the time that was a significant improvement that didn't cost them anything.

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My '93 LT1 Corvette, demanded Mobil One, 5w-20 and I did use that, the Vette spent most of its time in the 3000 to 6000 RPM range-
You mean 5w30, right? That's what GM called for in the LT1 and 4. I don't remember it even being available until 2000.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:23 AM   #40
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Could be,, but it was MOBIL ONE-


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This is extremely foolish if you are driving any of them more than 6,000-8000 miles per year. I change the oil in my Lightning once a year as well, but it only sees about 1500 mile per year on a busy year. 25,000 miles or one year is absurd for 99.9% of all vehicles on the road using Amsoil.

Every one of those vehicles is severe duty as defined in the service manual. Maintaining them like they are in normal service is a bad plan.



It's barely enough to even measure. When Ford started going to 5w20 across their fleet in 2001 their testing showed 0.1 mpg improvement, but in the CAFE environment at the time that was a significant improvement that didn't cost them anything.



You mean 5w30, right? That's what GM called for in the LT1 and 4. I don't remember it even being available until 2000.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:28 AM   #41
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Take the guesswork out or if by having an oil analysis done by Blackstone labs. That will tell you exactly what the condition of the oil and inside of your engine is.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:07 AM   #42
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FWIW, if there are 100 million vehicles in active use in the USA and they all travel the average distance of 12,000 miles/year with $20 oil changes (I know it's low); then, changing the oil every 3,000 miles costs $8 BILLION, changing the oil every 6,000 miles costs $4 BILLION. Anyone see a benefit from saving $4 Billion? Anyone see a benefit from sending $4 BILLION less to the middle east? Wanna save a quick $4 Billion? Maybe if you drive short distances, in stop 'n go traffic, on dusty dirt roads, when the temperature is below 25F or over 95F; you can rationalize 3,000 mile oil changes; otherwise you are a willing victim of voluntary taxation by advertising. IMHO.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:32 AM   #43
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FWIW, if there are 100 million vehicles in active use in the USA and they all travel the average distance of 12,000 miles/year with $20 oil changes (I know it's low); then, changing the oil every 3,000 miles costs $8 BILLION, changing the oil every 6,000 miles costs $4 BILLION. Anyone see a benefit from saving $4 Billion? Anyone see a benefit from sending $4 BILLION less to the middle east? Wanna save a quick $4 Billion? Maybe if you drive short distances, in stop 'n go traffic, on dusty dirt roads, when the temperature is below 25F or over 95F; you can rationalize 3,000 mile oil changes; otherwise you are a willing victim of voluntary taxation by advertising. IMHO.
I've got much more important things to do-like report to the University of Nevada if the avg growth rate for the Tumbleweed (Russian Thistle), in the Pyramid Lake Valley desert--

Is actually 1"/week during summer

The importance/responsibility is overwhelming-

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Old 10-14-2011, 11:44 AM   #44
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Amsoil likes 24,000 how bout them savins
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:46 AM   #45
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WOW-ya know I never look atit that way-

I've got much more important things to do-like report to the University of Nevada if the avg growth rate for the Tumbleweed (Russian Thistle), in the Pyramid Lake Valley desert--

Is actually 1"/week during summer

The importance/responsibility is overwhelming-

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Old 10-14-2011, 11:56 AM   #46
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Can that tumble weed be smoked?

Oh, if you mean---in an ORAL fashion, yea, the PAIUTE indians didit-

I don't/won't, I just drive my JKUR in the desert, that starts the "HIGH"-

Then I shoot "Thundersticks" and that controls the adrenaline rush !

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Old 10-14-2011, 01:25 PM   #47
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FWIW, if there are 100 million vehicles in active use in the USA and they all travel the average distance of 12,000 miles/year with $20 oil changes (I know it's low); then, changing the oil every 3,000 miles costs $8 BILLION, changing the oil every 6,000 miles costs $4 BILLION. Anyone see a benefit from saving $4 Billion? Anyone see a benefit from sending $4 BILLION less to the middle east? Wanna save a quick $4 Billion? Maybe if you drive short distances, in stop 'n go traffic, on dusty dirt roads, when the temperature is below 25F or over 95F; you can rationalize 3,000 mile oil changes; otherwise you are a willing victim of voluntary taxation by advertising. IMHO.
Hello drama queen. Has it occurred to you that those same vehicles averaging 20 mpg are responsible for sending $180 billion dollars there for gasoline at $3/gallon? Doubling oil change intervals isn't going to do anything to change the shiek's lifestyle, he probably won't even know the difference. I don't think 3000 mile changes are reasonable for most drivers on the road, but suggesting that it makes any difference at all in the middle east if we double that interval is trivial.

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Amsoil likes 24,000 how bout them savins
Actually, they don't like it, they just say it's possible for less than 1% of all drivers to do it without risking damage to their engine.
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Old 10-15-2011, 06:09 AM   #48
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Actually, they don't like it, they just say it's possible for less than 1% of all drivers to do it without risking damage to their engine.
Are the statistics that much in favor of damaging an engine doing an extended drain interval such as 24,000 miles? I'd never consider it but there are people who take those advertising claims at face value, and IMO I wouldn't want to by a used car from them.

Thanks!
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:10 AM   #49
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Again, people that do extended drain intervals are not doing it blindly. They are monitoring oil condition through the use of laboratory testing from places like Blackstone Labs. The owner will extract a sample, send it in, then follow the recommendations of the analysis. Each test has a cost so approaching this from a cash standpoint is not going to generate much savings.
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:14 AM   #50
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Bless you JIMBOX

BWT....any of them "thudersticks" X-tream long range?????????
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:27 AM   #51
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:28 AM   #52
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Oilwell--- $4B is "only" 2.2% of $180B but it's still $4BILLION. Billion here, Billion there... pretty soon you're talking real money. BTW, if those same 100 million vehicles could reduce their gas consumption by just 1 quart per day, 1/4th of a gallon; we could save $27BILLION. I bet there's tons of oil producers that would notice $27BILLION. Do you think you could reduce your gasoline consumption by 1 quart per day... about 5 miles less driving? I'm just sayin... For a DD JKU, it's probably only 2-3 miles less per day. Maybe you can only reduce gasoline consumption by 1 pint/day... that's still $13.5BILLION every year. LOL, it's hard... but someday, we gotta do it.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:35 AM   #53
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This is extremely foolish if you are driving any of them more than 6,000-8000 miles per year. I change the oil in my Lightning once a year as well, but it only sees about 1500 mile per year on a busy year. 25,000 miles or one year is absurd for 99.9% of all vehicles on the road using Amsoil.

Every one of those vehicles is severe duty as defined in the service manual. Maintaining them like they are in normal service is a bad plan.
I see what you are saying. I guess by severe duty I meant that I don't tow with any of them, go hardcore 'wheeling, nor are they driven in a dusty environment. However, everyday traffic is severe enough, I guess. The Ram sees about 6-7K miles a year, the other two 10-12K. You give me food for thought and will cause me to re-examine my intervals.

The question it raises is, aside sounding good from a marketing standpoint, why would they advertise that and basically market themselves out of at least twice the amount of oil that I (and others) would buy? Are they counting on me saying, "Gee, it must really be good oil if it lasts that long, but I will still change more frequently?" I used to go between 5-7K between changes with synthetic. Maybe I should switch back to that for those two vehicles.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:52 AM   #54
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Again, people that do extended drain intervals are not doing it blindly. They are monitoring oil condition through the use of laboratory testing from places like Blackstone Labs. The owner will extract a sample, send it in, then follow the recommendations of the analysis. Each test has a cost so approaching this from a cash standpoint is not going to generate much savings.
When you factor in the cost of an oil change when you have to change 22 quarts of oil (big diesel engines), the added cost of getting the oil checked can more than pay for itself if you can run an extra 5 or 10 thousand miles on the oil before changing it.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:55 AM   #55
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So here's a little story. My dad drives a 2000 mercury grand Marquis (ford crown Vic) very reliable car, he sold products to stores on the road for 7 years with that car, putting 250,000 miles on it, changing the oil with mobil one full sythetic , and a fram oil filter, 250,000 miles. NEVER done ANY work to it at all! Never. Wait. I replaced the oem battery last month..
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:58 AM   #56
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Are the statistics that much in favor of damaging an engine doing an extended drain interval such as 24,000 miles? I'd never consider it but there are people who take those advertising claims at face value, and IMO I wouldn't want to by a used car from them.
To answer that you have to define "damaging". Is the engine going to spit pieces out the oilpan? No. Most engines would live long enough without EVER changing the oil for the average first owner to never know the difference. Catastrophic engine failure is actually a pretty rare occurence as long as there is oil in the engine. What is much more likely is that sludge will build up over time and slowly start causing problems. As engines get more complicated with VVT, cylinder deactivation, etc this becomes more and more of a problem. Given enough time the sludge will kill the engine by overheating the engine or starving it of oil, but that is something that takes many years and lots of miles to occur. Most people will just chalk it up to the engine being worn out when it fails when it was really destroyed slowly by sludge.

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Again, people that do extended drain intervals are not doing it blindly. They are monitoring oil condition through the use of laboratory testing from places like Blackstone Labs. The owner will extract a sample, send it in, then follow the recommendations of the analysis. Each test has a cost so approaching this from a cash standpoint is not going to generate much savings.
If you think most people that are using extended intervals are getting their oil analyzed you are crazy. Very few people do it because it isn't a worthwhile investment for them. Doubling the cost of the oil change to see what's in the oil isn't worth it unless it's a commercial vehicle as someone else mentioned. Most people see "LASTS XXXXX MILES" in big red letters on the bottle, don't see the asterisk that says they can't really do that for their type of driving, dump the stuff in their engine and don't think about it again until they've driven XXXXX miles. Consumer ignorance and apathy are wonderful marketing tools.

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Oilwell--- $4B is "only" 2.2% of $180B but it's still $4BILLION. Billion here, Billion there... pretty soon you're talking real money. BTW, if those same 100 million vehicles could reduce their gas consumption by just 1 quart per day, 1/4th of a gallon; we could save $27BILLION. I bet there's tons of oil producers that would notice $27BILLION. Do you think you could reduce your gasoline consumption by 1 quart per day... about 5 miles less driving? I'm just sayin... For a DD JKU, it's probably only 2-3 miles less per day. Maybe you can only reduce gasoline consumption by 1 pint/day... that's still $13.5BILLION every year. LOL, it's hard... but someday, we gotta do it.
OK, let's say I take the time to save my 1 quart every day. Does that really save me money? Not hardly. My time is worth something to me, and that happens to be more than a quart of gas costs. Someday we're going to have to do something, but it's doubtful that we will have to in our lifetime and nothing will ever be done until we have to; that has been proven time and time again. Doubling oil change intervals for the sake of the U.S. economy is a fruitless venture as is saving a quart of gas every day. There are much more efficient ways to do that, but we aren't doing those either because we're too busy trying to make the rest of the world happy.

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I see what you are saying. I guess by severe duty I meant that I don't tow with any of them, go hardcore 'wheeling, nor are they driven in a dusty environment. However, everyday traffic is severe enough, I guess. The Ram sees about 6-7K miles a year, the other two 10-12K. You give me food for thought and will cause me to re-examine my intervals.
There is a lot more to severe duty than what you mentioned. Short trips, infrequent driving, use in hot or cold temperatures, and many other things will put you in the severe service category. Basically, if you aren't driving long distances on the highway on a perfect spring day you are in severe service.

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The question it raises is, aside sounding good from a marketing standpoint, why would they advertise that and basically market themselves out of at least twice the amount of oil that I (and others) would buy? Are they counting on me saying, "Gee, it must really be good oil if it lasts that long, but I will still change more frequently?" I used to go between 5-7K between changes with synthetic. Maybe I should switch back to that for those two vehicles.
It is purely a marketing thing. They aren't really marketing themselves out of selling twice as much oil, they are selling oil they would not have sold otherwise. If a consumer is using Brand X at $4/qt and changing it at 10k miles you can make it look like they are saving money buying Brand Y at $7/qt and going 25k miles on it. It's almost a given that they won't read the fine print that says they can't really do that, so they don't have a clue until it's too late.

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So here's a little story. My dad drives a 2000 mercury grand Marquis (ford crown Vic) very reliable car, he sold products to stores on the road for 7 years with that car, putting 250,000 miles on it, changing the oil with mobil one full sythetic , and a fram oil filter, 250,000 miles. NEVER done ANY work to it at all! Never. Wait. I replaced the oem battery last month..
Those were basically solid cars, but I suspect a good mechanical inspection would reveal a lot of things that should be done or should have been done already. Just because he hasn't had to do anything to it doesn't mean there aren't things he should have done.
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:10 PM   #57
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Oilwell mentioned that we spend $180 Billion on gasoline yearly. At $3/gallon, that's 60 Billion gallons. I know that most people don't give a damn about CO2 but at 20Lb/gallon, that's 600 Million Tons of CO2, every year or about 2 Tons for every man, woman and child in this country...4,000lb of CO2. The iceman is disappearing.
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by taoshum View Post
I know that most people don't give a damn about CO2 but at 20Lb/gallon
This is the exact kind of crap that makes the entire environmentalist agenda laughable. There's a reason we don't care about CO2 and that reason is that it's a sham. When we're talking about combustion, CO2 is a GOOD THING! That's what we want to have coming out of the tailpipe. In a perfect world nothing would come out of a tailpipe except CO2 and water, yet we are now saying we don't want that. We can make an engine emit things other than CO2. CO, NoX, and unburned hydrocarbons come to mind. Would you rather have those? The options to get rid of CO2 are to either allow the engine to make things that are worse, or get rid of the engine. The latter has been the tree hugger goal from the get go and CO2 is the latest ploy in their feeble attempts to achieve it.

The CO2 crisis in nothing more than a trumped up illusion of a problem that mankind doesn't even have the data to properly evaluate yet. The Earth has been here for billions of years and has gone through more than we could ever hope to put it through, yet we claim to have it completely figured out after having compiled roughly 100 years of data, much of which may or may not be accurate.

When you get right down to it there is very little on this planet that wasn't here before we were. The planet can take care of itself. That's not to say that we shouldn't do our best to keep it clean for our use, but it is going to do what it's going to do regardless of our input. The planet itself emits more of what we consider pollution than we ever could, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that.
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Old 10-17-2011, 04:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415

To answer that you have to define "damaging". Is the engine going to spit pieces out the oilpan? No. Most engines would live long enough without EVER changing the oil for the average first owner to never know the difference. Catastrophic engine failure is actually a pretty rare occurence as long as there is oil in the engine. What is much more likely is that sludge will build up over time and slowly start causing problems. As engines get more complicated with VVT, cylinder deactivation, etc this becomes more and more of a problem. Given enough time the sludge will kill the engine by overheating the engine or starving it of oil, but that is something that takes many years and lots of miles to occur. Most people will just chalk it up to the engine being worn out when it fails when it was really destroyed slowly by sludge.

If you think most people that are using extended intervals are getting their oil analyzed you are crazy. Very few people do it because it isn't a worthwhile investment for them. Doubling the cost of the oil change to see what's in the oil isn't worth it unless it's a commercial vehicle as someone else mentioned. Most people see "LASTS XXXXX MILES" in big red letters on the bottle, don't see the asterisk that says they can't really do that for their type of driving, dump the stuff in their engine and don't think about it again until they've driven XXXXX miles. Consumer ignorance and apathy are wonderful marketing tools.

OK, let's say I take the time to save my 1 quart every day. Does that really save me money? Not hardly. My time is worth something to me, and that happens to be more than a quart of gas costs. Someday we're going to have to do something, but it's doubtful that we will have to in our lifetime and nothing will ever be done until we have to; that has been proven time and time again. Doubling oil change intervals for the sake of the U.S. economy is a fruitless venture as is saving a quart of gas every day. There are much more efficient ways to do that, but we aren't doing those either because we're too busy trying to make the rest of the world happy.

There is a lot more to severe duty than what you mentioned. Short trips, infrequent driving, use in hot or cold temperatures, and many other things will put you in the severe service category. Basically, if you aren't driving long distances on the highway on a perfect spring day you are in severe service.

It is purely a marketing thing. They aren't really marketing themselves out of selling twice as much oil, they are selling oil they would not have sold otherwise. If a consumer is using Brand X at $4/qt and changing it at 10k miles you can make it look like they are saving money buying Brand Y at $7/qt and going 25k miles on it. It's almost a given that they won't read the fine print that says they can't really do that, so they don't have a clue until it's too late.

Those were basically solid cars, but I suspect a good mechanical inspection would reveal a lot of things that should be done or should have been done already. Just because he hasn't had to do anything to it doesn't mean there aren't things he should have done.
I agree. They are tanks. Built to last. But it does get occasional inspections and no, nothing wrong
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Old 10-17-2011, 06:13 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
This is the exact kind of crap that makes the entire environmentalist agenda laughable. There's a reason we don't care about CO2 and that reason is that it's a sham. When we're talking about combustion, CO2 is a GOOD THING! That's what we want to have coming out of the tailpipe. In a perfect world nothing would come out of a tailpipe except CO2 and water, yet we are now saying we don't want that. We can make an engine emit things other than CO2. CO, NoX, and unburned hydrocarbons come to mind. Would you rather have those? The options to get rid of CO2 are to either allow the engine to make things that are worse, or get rid of the engine. The latter has been the tree hugger goal from the get go and CO2 is the latest ploy in their feeble attempts to achieve it.

The CO2 crisis in nothing more than a trumped up illusion of a problem that mankind doesn't even have the data to properly evaluate yet. The Earth has been here for billions of years and has gone through more than we could ever hope to put it through, yet we claim to have it completely figured out after having compiled roughly 100 years of data, much of which may or may not be accurate.

When you get right down to it there is very little on this planet that wasn't here before we were. The planet can take care of itself. That's not to say that we shouldn't do our best to keep it clean for our use, but it is going to do what it's going to do regardless of our input. The planet itself emits more of what we consider pollution than we ever could, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that.
And your data comes from?

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