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Old 03-16-2012, 02:34 PM   #1
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Wilwood brakes for your JK

I don't visit much any more, but this was an opportunity I though was worthwhile. I called and ordered new brakes for my truck today and the subject turned to Jeeps. TCE Performance Products makes Wilwood brake kits for a lot of niche vehicles and he is interested in possibly doing one for the JK. You can see the kind of things he does at www.tceperformanceproducts.com.

Given the size of the stock brakes and the size of wheels many like to run, there may not be anything he can do for you, BUT if you are running 17" wheels with 35s or larger he can probably make decent gains in braking power. A 13" rotor with a 4 or 6 piston caliper should fit under most 17" wheels and maybe some 16" wheels, which is a decent step up from the stock rotor sizes.

If this is something you would be interested in, get the phone number and/or email address from the website and give Todd a call. The hillclimb season is getting started so it may take some time for him to reply, but he will get back to you.

As for the products, I have been using them on my Lightning for several years and they are top notch as is his customer service. Right after I put his front kit on my truck he discovered that his supplier had accidentally sent him a batch of 10mm fittings in place of the 3/8" fittings he needed. The 10mm fittings screwed on and seemed to work fine, but he tracked down every customer that may have gotten the wrong ones and shipped out a new set of stainless lines. You don't see that kind of service very often any more.

I've seen several threads about brake upgrades, so this might be an answer to a question many have asked.

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Old 03-16-2012, 02:35 PM   #2
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #3
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Hey Oil!
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:40 PM   #4
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Just for some brake education....

There is a reason why brakes like that (Brembo, Wilwood, Stoptech, AP Racing, etc) are fit to sports cars...for fade resistance. They do NOT help you stop any better. The stopping distance is negligible on most sports cars (often a little bit worse) but the reason to get them is for fade purposes. Jeep drivers do NOT have fade issues. OEM brakes will do just fine. If you REALLY want to stop faster, you would need to get a new master cylinder, which is the "engine" behind the brakes. Furthermore, braking is 60% tire. If you have MT tires, you can have 100 pot calipers on all 4 corners, they won't do squat, since your tires can't deal with the stress, and they will just skid forward, causing your ABS to kick in all the time. Also, many times, the 4 pistons on these calipers (wilwood doesn't make calipers designed for trucks like the wrangler) total surface area is SMALLER than the ONE piston in an OEM caliper. They are designed for faster actuation and to prevent the ABS system from kicking in prematurely in a RACING situation, not a road situation.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you spent $1500 on Wilwoods for your truck, you are going to be supremely disappointed.

BTW, I have 6 pot 14" Wilwoods on my s2000, so I am very familiar with Wilwoods.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:44 PM   #5
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No really.... I am interested
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:49 PM   #6
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:51 PM   #7
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I don't mean to scare the OP, just wanted him to have the correct info and to make sure he knows what he is getting himself into. A MT tired Wrangler will stop WORSE than an AT or street tired Wrangler (with the same brakes,) because the tires are what set your brake system limits.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:58 PM   #8
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I don't think you're going to scare him any, just sayin'.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:59 PM   #9
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OP is very sharp. Should generate a good discussion on braking so long as everyone plays nice . . . .
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:03 PM   #10
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I'm not saying he isn't smart, sharp, or anything else. Braking is not up for debate. It is simple fact.

Tires do the braking. The master cylinder is responsible for bite strength. The calipers/rotors facilitate the action. Like I said, I OWN Wilwood brakes.

The ONLY positive I can see on a JK is that they probably weigh a bit less (although they are physically bigger, so it might actually be the same) so you get a little bit of less unsprung weight.

Oh, and the cross drilled/slotted rotors would do a nice job of trashing your pads, after they cake up with mud...not a good idea IMHO.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
Just for some brake education....

There is a reason why brakes like that (Brembo, Wilwood, Stoptech, AP Racing, etc) are fit to sports cars...for fade resistance. They do NOT help you stop any better. The stopping distance is negligible on most sports cars (often a little bit worse) but the reason to get them is for fade purposes. Jeep drivers do NOT have fade issues. OEM brakes will do just fine. If you REALLY want to stop faster, you would need to get a new master cylinder, which is the "engine" behind the brakes. Furthermore, braking is 60% tire. If you have MT tires, you can have 100 pot calipers on all 4 corners, they won't do squat, since your tires can't deal with the stress, and they will just skid forward, causing your ABS to kick in all the time. Also, many times, the 4 pistons on these calipers (wilwood doesn't make calipers designed for trucks like the wrangler) total surface area is SMALLER than the ONE piston in an OEM caliper. They are designed for faster actuation and to prevent the ABS system from kicking in prematurely in a RACING situation, not a road situation.
I've seen some of your other posts and this one is no better informed than the others. With stock tires you are correct, there is no benefit in braking power with these. I said that in the original post. If you don't have bigger tires there is no benefit in braking power. Go read it again. It's there. I have said multiple times on this forum that if your stock brakes are strong enough to activte the ABS there is no need to add stronger brakes. There are people on this forum that don't have enough brake to do so and will benefit from it. And Wranglers DO have fade issues. Lots of people tow with them and lots of people wheel them in areas where they have to ride the brake constantly down a long hill. Either of those situations will cause fade. Before you start passing around brake education, you should seek some for yourself.

Quote:
I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you spent $1500 on Wilwoods for your truck, you are going to be supremely disappointed.
You have no idea what you are talking about, but why should that surprise anyone? You've never seen the truck, have no idea what I've done to it and you've never seen what I use it for.

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BTW, I have 6 pot 14" Wilwoods on my s2000, so I am very familiar with Wilwoods.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but I'm familiar with using my truck to make guys in s2000s wonder why they bothered even bringing them to the race track.

If you don't want better brakes for your Jeep don't buy them. Don't tell everyone else how much YOU don't need them and pretend that the same is true of everyone.

Regardless of how many people truly need better brakes, this is an option. If they spend $1500 on it and get no benefit from it is none of your concern. I suspect there are plenty of JKs on this forum that have far more than $1500 in mods done that don't do anything at all for them.

I'll excuse myself now. I'm certain The Man will be along shortly to run me off anyway.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:09 PM   #12
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:13 PM   #13
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This is getting interesting.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:15 PM   #14
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Hey Oil!
Hi, how's it going?
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:19 PM   #15
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:22 PM   #16
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Hi, how's it going?
Good man. Nice to see you back.

Wouldn't mind seeing a debate here between two guys who know more than I (indeed most) do . . . though the collars are already getting a little hot. Be nice for you to stick around if you catch my drift.

How's that JK? I don't recall what the mod status was when you last posted. I'm sporting 15" wheels these days, so the stock brakes are pretty much my only option, though I'm always up for some education.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:29 PM   #17
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Good man. Nice to see you back.
I'm not back, just passing this info along and I'll be on my way.

Quote:
Wouldn't mind seeing a debate here between two guys who know more than I (indeed most) do . . . though the collars are already getting a little hot. Be nice for you to stick around if you catch my drift.
Not really. As usual I just don't appreciate misinformation being spread around. I don't have a dog in the hunt and I don't care if anyone calls Todd to get brakes for their Jeep or not, but seeing others spread false info annoys me.

Quote:
How's that JK? I don't recall what the mod status was when you last posted. I'm sporting 15" wheels these days, so the stock brakes are pretty much my only option, though I'm always up for some education.
Still the same as before. We haven't done anything else to it since the day after we got it.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
if you are running 17" wheels with 35s or larger he can probably make decent gains in braking power.
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
There is a reason why brakes like that (Brembo, Wilwood, Stoptech, AP Racing, etc) are fit to sports cars...for fade resistance. They do NOT help you stop any better. . . . . Jeep drivers do NOT have fade issues. OEM brakes will do just fine. . . . .

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you spent $1500 on Wilwoods for your truck, you are going to be supremely disappointed.
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
Braking is not up for debate. It is simple fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
With stock tires you are correct, there is no benefit in braking power with these. . . . . If have said multiple times on this forum that if your stock brakes are strong enough to activte the ABS there is no need to add stronger brakes. There are people on this forum that don't have enough brake to do so and will benefit from it. And Wranglers DO have fade issues. Lots of people tow with them and lots of people wheel them in areas where they have to ride the brake constantly down a long hill. Either of those situations will cause fade.
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As usual I just don't appreciate misinformation being spread around. I don't have a dog in the hunt and I don't care if anyone calls Todd to get brakes for their Jeep or not, but seeing others spread false info annoys me.
Still got my popcorn.

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I'm not back, just passing this info along and I'll be on my way.
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
I've seen some of your other posts and this one is no better informed than the others. With stock tires you are correct, there is no benefit in braking power with these. I said that in the original post. If you don't have bigger tires there is no benefit in braking power. Go read it again. It's there. I have said multiple times on this forum that if your stock brakes are strong enough to activte the ABS there is no need to add stronger brakes. There are people on this forum that don't have enough brake to do so and will benefit from it. And Wranglers DO have fade issues. Lots of people tow with them and lots of people wheel them in areas where they have to ride the brake constantly down a long hill. Either of those situations will cause fade. Before you start passing around brake education, you should seek some for yourself.



You have no idea what you are talking about, but why should that surprise anyone? You've never seen the truck, have no idea what I've done to it and you've never seen what I use it for.



I don't want to burst your bubble, but I'm familiar with using my truck to make guys in s2000s wonder why they bothered even bringing them to the race track.

If you don't want better brakes for your Jeep don't buy them. Don't tell everyone else how much YOU don't need them and pretend that the same is true of everyone.

Regardless of how many people truly need better brakes, this is an option. If they spend $1500 on it and get no benefit from it is none of your concern. I suspect there are plenty of JKs on this forum that have far more than $1500 in mods done that don't do anything at all for them.

I'll excuse myself now. I'm certain The Man will be along shortly to run me off anyway.
Wow, no need for that, but you proved my point. I posted for others to read. I have already wasted time and money because of MISinformation of this forum. You like your brakes? Fine. Enjoy. But don't for one second tell me that I can help another member save $1500 and keep them from buying racing brakes for a two ton brick. For those of us with decent reading comprehension, it was clear that I wasn't talking about you. You want big red shiny calipers behind your wheels? Fine. Don't come on here saying things like
"plenty of Jeep owners have fade when they tow." Guess what sherlock, if you are cooking your brakes from towing, then you are either NOT towing correctly, or are towing too much. Riding race brakes will glaze your pads in a hurry, and you will end up with worse braking than stock.
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:30 PM   #20
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BTW, no need to "make a kit" for a JK. Wilwood already makes one.

Wilwood High Performance Disc Brakes - Front Brake Kits: 2011 Jeep Wrangler

Requires 18" wheels.
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:36 PM   #21
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:45 PM   #22
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One more thing....

1) The Wilwood kit, although "beefier" still utilizers the OEM master cilynder, which will NOT give you more bite.

2) Fade is caused by the pad compound overheating (as well as boiling brake fluid) causing it to feel spongy and act weaker. This is solved with using performance pads (with a high ceramic compound which resists heat buildup) like these...

Amazon.com: 2007-2010 JEEP WRANGLER (07-10JK) SAHARA Hawk Performance Ceramic Front Brake Pads: Automotive

as well as higher temp brake fluid like this....

Amazon.com: ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid Dot 4: Automotive

The surface area on the 4 wilwood pistons equals the surface area of the OEM single piston.

Quote from a member on one of the other Jk forums...

Quote:
I had a custom Willwood setup F/R on my last Jeep.

Would never run them again. Didn't hold up well at all and the performance was average at best.

People loved to look at them and thought they were awesome.......couldn't be further from reality.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:18 PM   #23
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Lol.... Sorry
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:42 PM   #24
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Thanks for the info Oil

Mmmm sorry but any improvement to breaks is a good one. Cost effective? Perhaps not. For someone who claims they know about breaks, well sorry you sure don't sound like it. You also forgot to inform us all on break lines and how important they are. Just saying
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:56 PM   #25
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Thanks for the info Oil

Mmmm sorry but any improvement to breaks is a good one. Cost effective? Perhaps not. For someone who claims they know about breaks, well sorry you sure don't sound like it. You also forgot to inform us all on break lines and how important they are. Just saying
Brake lines are not important. Brake lines change the FEEL of braking, they don't change anything in terms of ACTUAL braking. Stainless brake lines are still a rubber line, surrounded by a stainless mesh jacket, which prevents expansion, and gives the pedal a nice firm feel. On a Jeep, another bonus is they would be slighly less prone to damage, but only marginally. They can still rub out, and if one of the mesh lines splinters, it can actually poke through the rubber line, leaking your fluid out, allowing air in, and your brakes won't work. The crappy part with that is, the damage might be SO SMALL, that you won't even see it, and assume something else is wrong.

Getting performance pads, and good quality fluid would be an excellent upgrade for those that find the JK's brakes not good enough. You can get higher quality slotted rotors if you wish as well. You will never get them to sports car levels, no matter how hard you try. Second, you just said exactly what I did, that this is NOT a good solution....FOR THE MONEY. Again, just like the OP, you seem to be attacking me, but not the actual facts. So far, the rebuttals have been pretty weak.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

Wow, no need for that, but you proved my point. I posted for others to read. I have already wasted time and money because of MISinformation of this forum. You like your brakes? Fine. Enjoy. But don't for one second tell me that I can help another member save $1500 and keep them from buying racing brakes for a two ton brick. For those of us with decent reading comprehension, it was clear that I wasn't talking about you. You want big red shiny calipers behind your wheels? Fine. Don't come on here saying things like
"plenty of Jeep owners have fade when they tow." Guess what sherlock, if you are cooking your brakes from towing, then you are either NOT towing correctly, or are towing too much. Riding race brakes will glaze your pads in a hurry, and you will end up with worse braking than stock.
If you really want to help members save money, stop endorsing after-market intakes. Oilwell only suggested that someone with 35's or larger might be interested in looking into these brakes.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC
One more thing....

1) The Wilwood kit, although "beefier" still utilizers the OEM master cilynder, which will NOT give you more bite.

2) Fade is caused by the pad compound overheating (as well as boiling brake fluid) causing it to feel spongy and act weaker. This is solved with using performance pads (with a high ceramic compound which resists heat buildup) like these...

Amazon.com: 2007-2010 JEEP WRANGLER (07-10JK) SAHARA Hawk Performance Ceramic Front Brake Pads: Automotive

as well as higher temp brake fluid like this....

Amazon.com: ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid Dot 4: Automotive

The surface area on the 4 wilwood pistons equals the surface area of the OEM single piston.

Quote from a member on one of the other Jk forums...
I don't have a dog in this fight either but having experience with many "racing" brake setups on vehicles that I could directly compare to the same vehicle with "normal" factory brakes and similar weight I would have to say that a large percent of what your saying is false. Also even if two pistons have the same surface area as one it does not make them equal. All other things equal the two or more piston setup gives more even clamping force over the surface of the brake pad.

Anyways....... Carry on.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:02 PM   #28
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If you really want to help members save money, stop endorsing after-market intakes. Oilwell only suggested that someone with 35's or larger might be interested in looking into these brakes.
I have never ONCE endorsed aftermarket intakes. All I stated is that they WORK, and you kept saying they didn't. I never pushed a single product of any company. It was simply a debate on wether or not they are worth it. I agreed with you that proof is necessary, but you kept going on about how they are a myth, and that is total BS.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

Brake lines are not important. Brake lines change the FEEL of braking, they don't change anything in terms of ACTUAL braking. Stainless brake lines are still a rubber line, surrounded by a stainless mesh jacket, which prevents expansion, and gives the pedal a nice firm feel. On a Jeep, another bonus is they would be slighly less prone to damage, but only marginally. They can still rub out, and if one of the mesh lines splinters, it can actually poke through the rubber line, leaking your fluid out, allowing air in, and your brakes won't work. The crappy part with that is, the damage might be SO SMALL, that you won't even see it, and assume something else is wrong.

Getting performance pads, and good quality fluid would be an excellent upgrade for those that find the JK's brakes not good enough. You can get higher quality slotted rotors if you wish as well. You will never get them to sports car levels, no matter how hard you try. Second, you just said exactly what I did, that this is NOT a good solution....FOR THE MONEY. Again, just like the OP, you seem to be attacking me, but not the actual facts. So far, the rebuttals have been pretty weak.
Do you track that Honda very much? I guess a spongy brake pedal is ok in racing. I guess blowing a brake line coming into a hard braking corner is ok too. Your right brake lines are not important. Your giving very generalized advice that is not all together correct. Forgive me if I don't follow your braking advice.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:06 PM   #30
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Location: NJ exile living in Baltimore
Posts: 22,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

I have never ONCE endorsed aftermarket intakes. All I stated is that they WORK, and you kept saying they didn't. I never pushed a single product of any company. It was simply a debate on wether or not they are worth it. I agreed with you that proof is necessary, but you kept going on about how they are a myth, and that is total BS.
Congratulations. I have never seen more double talk in a single post. By "endorsing" I mean that you support the claims.

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