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Old 02-01-2011, 07:46 AM   #31
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:48 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by jz68 View Post
Way to move the goal posts. We're not discussing the Wrangler's off road capabilites, we're talking about quality.

Trying to have a meaningful debate on this site is pointless, especially when even the mods put on the rose colored glasses. You guys sit here and keep blowing sunshine up peoples asses, I'll find a new forum where people look at both sides.
Later. A Wrangler is a Wrangler. They are not for everybody.

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Old 02-01-2011, 07:53 AM   #33
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You're not going to get honest answers out of a website full of Jeep lovers. Do the research yourself and you'll find out that the Wrangler has one of the worst quality ratings of any vehicle. People buy them because they love them, not because of their quality.
if you think this site is bad, go to a harley davidson forum, you would think the people spent 20+k on a box of parts and had to assembly their own bike.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:56 AM   #34
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See ya on the trails in a JEEP jz68....
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:49 AM   #35
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I'll find a new forum where people look at both sides.
May I suggest JK-Forum.com - The Ultimate Jeep JK Wrangler Bulletin Board or perhaps JKOwners.com - The community for Jeep JK Owners? I'm sure you'll find them to be much different than here. Good luck getting your 2012. Maybe when you finally own a Wrangler you'll understand the "Jeep thing."
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:59 AM   #36
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Here is a quote from this article: "Are we happy with things like curved windshields, curved body panels, curved bumpers, and the fact that the JK is lower, wider, and generally fatter than the TJ it replaced?"

Is that right? Is the JK "lower" than the TJ? I haven't taken measurements, but my impression was that the JK (stock mind you) actually is a little higher than was my TJ (both Rubicons).
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:04 AM   #37
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Wider and fatter, but definitely higher.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:07 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by jz68 View Post
Do the research yourself and you'll find out that the Wrangler has one of the worst quality ratings of any vehicle.
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Originally Posted by jz68 View Post
Go look at the studies and surveys. . . . . These are QUALITY studies that placed the Wrangler at or near the bottom.
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Wrangler was also near the bottom of the most recent JD Power quality study.
You may have left for good already jz68, but I'll give it a go anyway.

What counts as "quality" for someone deciding between a Honda Accord and a Toyota Camry is different than what counts as "quality" for someone considering a Wrangler.

According to JD Power, "quality" is surveyed by asking consumers "to rate both mechanical quality (i.e., defects and malfunctions) and design quality (how well a particular feature works or operates)." The study is "based on responses" to a "228-question battery."

In 2010, the most frequently reported "quality" problems included "excessive wind noise," "climate controls are difficult to use/see, or are in a poor location," "hands-free communication system does not recognize user voice commands," "front audio/entertainment system controls are difficult to use or are in a poor location," and "materials that scuff or soil easily."

How do you suppose the Wrangler does in the "excessive wind noise" category? Particularly compared to, oh say, the Porsche Cayenne? Do you suppose that wind noise has any impact on the functionality of the Wrangler's hands free communication system? More generally, how do you expect the Wrangler's overall interior ergonomics would compare to a Cayenne? Of the soccer moms who bought either a Wrangler or a Cayenne without giving much thought to any of this, which do you suppose gets warmer reviews to JD Power's questions after a few months of ownership?

According to JD Power, I should therefore agree that the Wrangler is of "low quality." That's just nonsense. I don't blame JD Power for this--the point for them is to apply the same standards to every vehicle they review. The problem, as I indicated before, is simply that the Wrangler is ill-suited to the traditional metrics used to determine what is a "good" (or high "quality") "car."

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Originally Posted by jz68 View Post
We're not discussing the Wrangler's off road capabilites, we're talking about quality.
Although you suggested Tom's article "moved the goal posts" by invoking this, he is in fact much closer to what most Wrangler drivers would associate with "quality." As Barrie said, for a Wrangler "the true test is when they bring you back home." To me, this includes its offroad capabilities--it's a Wrangler. To the extent this "moves the goal posts," it only makes them more accurate. Again, "quality" for someone deciding between an Accord and a Camry is different than "quality" for someone considering a Wrangler.

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Originally Posted by jz68 View Post
Lets do this since you're such a defender of the Wranglers reliability, show me a quality study where they're near the top.
Nobody ever said it was "near the top." But regardless, the response is simply to refer to Tom's article. That more accurately assesses "quality" for purposes of a Wrangler. Indeed, the Accord and the Cayenne would have reviewed terribly under those standards. Does this mean they are of low "quality"? Of course not. It simply means they should be measured differently.

I say a Wrangler is of very high "quality" because its powertrain and critical components perform reliably, it's interior and exterior are both easy to clean, I can reasonably take many pieces of it apart and put them back together again, and its offroad handling features (e.g., high clearance, well functioning 4wd, suspension, etc.) do what they are supposed to do and do it reliably. It also always gets me home.

This does not mean I have "rose colored glasses," have my "head in the sand," or have had large amounts of "sunshine" blown up my ass. It simply means that the metrics by which JD Power measures "quality" are not appropriate for the Wrangler.

I have my doubts that you'll find any Wrangler fan website where the posters feel any differently. I also expect that you will be disappointed in the 2012 regardless of its added horsepower, as I suspect you'll discover that your measurements of "quality" are more in line with JD Power.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:10 AM   #39
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Wider and fatter, but definitely higher.
This may sound stupid, but i was driving my brothers TJ around last weekend and when I got back in my JK i felt like I was in a lifted jeep.

They are both stock but the JK seems noticably higher than the TJ
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:15 AM   #40
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You may have left for good already jz68, but I'll give it a go anyway.

What counts as "quality" for someone deciding between a Honda Accord and a Toyota Camry is different than what counts as "quality" for someone considering a Wrangler.

According to JD Power, "quality" is surveyed by asking consumers "to rate both mechanical quality (i.e., defects and malfunctions) and design quality (how well a particular feature works or operates)." The study is "based on responses" to a "228-question battery."

In 2010, the most frequently reported "quality" problems included "excessive wind noise," "climate controls are difficult to use/see, or are in a poor location," "hands-free communication system does not recognize user voice commands," "front audio/entertainment system controls are difficult to use or are in a poor location," and "materials that scuff or soil easily."

How do you suppose the Wrangler does in the "excessive wind noise" category? Particularly compared to, oh say, the Porsche Cayenne? Do you suppose that wind noise has any impact on the functionality of the Wrangler's hands free communication system? More generally, how do you expect the Wrangler's overall interior ergonomics would compare to a Cayenne? Of the soccer moms who bought either a Wrangler or a Cayenne without giving much thought to any of this, which do you suppose gets warmer reviews to JD Power's questions after a few months of ownership?

According to JD Power, I should therefore agree that the Wrangler is of "low quality." That's just nonsense. I don't blame JD Power for this--the point for them is to apply the same standards to every vehicle they review. The problem, as I indicated before, is simply that the Wrangler is ill-suited to the traditional metrics used to determine what is a "good" (or high "quality") "car."



Although you suggested Tom's article "moved the goal posts" by invoking this, he is in fact much closer to what most Wrangler drivers would associate with "quality." As Barrie said, for a Wrangler "the true test is when they bring you back home." To me, this includes its offroad capabilities. To the extent this "moves the goal posts," it only makes them more accurate. Again, "quality" for someone deciding between an Accord and a Camry is different than "quality" for someone considering a Wrangler.



Nobody ever said it was "near the top." But regardless, the response is simply to refer to Tom's article. That more accurately assesses "quality" for purposes of a Wrangler. Indeed, the Accord and the Cayenne would have reviewed terribly under those standards. Does this mean they are of low "quality"? Of course not. It's simply means they should be measured differently.

I say a Wrangler is very high "quality" because its powertrain and critical components perform reliably, it's interior and exterior are both easy to clean, I can reasonably take many pieces of it apart and put them back together again, and its offroad handling features (e.g., high clearance, well functioning 4wd, suspension, etc.) do what they are supposed to do and do it reliably. It also always gets me home.

This does not mean I have "rose colored glasses," have my "head in the sand," or have had large amounts of "sunshine" blown up my ass. It simply means that the metrics by which JD Power measures "quality" are not appropriate for the Wrangler.

Exactly.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:16 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by jz68
Wrangler was also near the bottom of the most recent JD Power quality study.

But hey, what's the point? You'll just tell me how their study doesn't matter either.

I'm not going to take the time to post links, they're out there if you want to take your head out of the sand and find them.

Lets do this since you're such a defender of the Wranglers reliability, show me a quality study where they're near the top.

I'll be waiting.
Starting arguments about Jeeps on a Jeep website.

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Old 02-01-2011, 09:19 AM   #42
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This may sound stupid, but i was driving my brothers TJ around last weekend and when I got back in my JK i felt like I was in a lifted jeep.

They are both stock but the JK seems noticably higher than the TJ
That's because it is.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:20 AM   #43
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That's because it is.
I knew it was higher, but is it a legit 2-3'' higher?
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:31 AM   #44
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Ground Clearance at curb weight:
  • Front Axle: 8.0 (204) min.; 9.6 (243) max.
  • Rear Axle: 7.9 (202) min.; 9.5 (24) max.
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Approach Angle Deg. 40.8 42.0 43.8 44.6 44.3
Breakover Angle Deg. 21.8 23.1 24.9 25.5 25.4
Departure Angle Deg. 37.4 38.7 40.3 40.6 40.4
Front Axle to ground (inches) 9.1 9.6 10.3 10.6 10.5
Rear Axle to ground (inches) 8.8 9.4 10.1 10.3 10.2
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:18 AM   #45
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How do you gauge "quality"? What is the basis for comparison? What else is in the same class, realistically, as the Wrangler? No other vehicle sold to Joe Citizen is built first for it's off-road capability, second for on road manners. Are they concluding it's of poor quality after reading owners problems after wheeling them off-road, or is it initial quality? EVERY vehicle will have issues when driven off-road enough. It's an unrealistic expectation of ANY specifically dedicated vehicle to not expect problems when used for their intended purpose. Race your Corvette enough, it will have problems. Wheel your Jeep enough, it will have problems. Do they take into account all the people who bought Jeeps expecting them to be just as plush as the car, truck or SUV they traded in? The opinions of a dedicated off road enthusiast publication means 1000X more to me than a study conducted by survey to people who most likely didn't buy a Jeep to use for it's intended purpose and aren't willing to sacrifice creature comfort for capability.

The Wrangler has very little sound deadening, which leads to road noise. A soft top, which leads to wind noise and an occasional leak. Solid axles and a real frame which leads to a bumpy ride, which in turn leads to squeaks and rattles over time. They're built with simplicity of cleaning and ruggedness in mind, so you get a lot of plasticy surfaces inside with not much in the way of creature comforts. Aside from these issues, what huge recalls has Jeep had to issue for the Wrangler like the other car companies have had to? How many Jeeps do you seen broken down on the side of the road, even old ones?

It's easy to criticize, but does anyone ever give reasons as to what they would do to improve the Wrangler without making it too soft or too expensive? The Wrangler has been a slow evolution because Jeep is one of the few brands that still understands it's core audience. They also understand that the market has changed and they must change as well to keep up. The JK is just as capable off road as any previous model, but it's also move civil for daily driver use. For that, I am particularly thankful.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:20 AM   #46
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I have a CR subscription and looked this up, the 2010 2-door has a better than average reliability rating, the 4-door has a below average rating, but the detail under the 4-door shows no area details below average. I'll definitely bring this to CR's attention when asked for the next review.

CR does agree with the resale and owner satisfaction and I couldn't find a way to paraphrase - "Off-road capability remains extremely impressive". Isn't this why one buys a Jeep?

This comes from: Car Model Review - Consumer Reports
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:36 AM   #47
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Thanks for the info. Unfortunately you have to be a subscriber to view any content on CR's web site. It would seem tha jz68 didn't even read the information he was claiming to have.

I would venture to guess the reason the 2 door is rated higher than the 4 door is the 4 door owners are more likely to have come from the luxury SUV market and were expecting something else.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:36 AM   #48
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How do you gauge "quality"? . . . . What else is in the same class, realistically, as the Wrangler? No other vehicle sold to Joe Citizen is built first for it's off-road capability, second for on road manners.
Exactly. The metrics don't line up. From a "quality" standpoint, whether I find the dash layout of an Accord more intuitive and supple than a Camry, or whether I find one much quieter than the other, matters. For the Wrangler, it does not. It's apples-to-oranges, and the word "quality" has different meanings.

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. . . the 2010 2-door has a better than average reliability rating, the 4-door has a below average rating, but the detail under the 4-door shows no area details below average. . . . . CR does agree with the resale and owner satisfaction and I couldn't find a way to paraphrase - "Off-road capability remains extremely impressive". . . . .
Now that (aside from the likely typo for the 4-door) sounds correct. Above average reliability, coupled with "extremely impressive" offroad performance, leads most Wrangler owners in Jeep's target audience to justly conclude that their vehicle is of "high quality." We are not delusional, blinded, or foolish.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:16 AM   #49
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What else is in the same class, realistically, as the Wrangler? No other vehicle sold to Joe Citizen is built first for it's off-road capability, second for on road manners.
I would like to see a comparison between the Ford SVT Raptor, Dodge Power Wagon, and Jeep Wrangler. Keep in mind the two trucks cost half again more than even a top of the line Wrangler. Still, it would be interesting to see how people gauged "quality" between these three vehicles.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:26 AM   #50
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starting arguments about jeeps on a jeep website.

66 posts.

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Won't participate in a rational argument.

Troll detected. Move along nothing to see here. Don't feed the trolls.


+1

shill alert! it's funny he said he'd buy a 2012, obviously he wants the pentastar, so does that mean quality to him is an untested engine that gets better MPG and HP? He'd love a kia, seriously high quality then! haha
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:32 AM   #51
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Just imagine what Honda's and Toyota's rating would be if 25% of the questions were about how they handle off road or in snow greater then 12". The report is really only valid when comparing apples to apples. You can't use teh same question of a Honda and a Jeep and not have one or the another look bad because it is based on what questions you ask. A Honda would get very poor scores if the questions were based on off road based performance.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:01 PM   #52
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Just imagine what Honda's and Toyota's rating would be if 25% of the questions were about how they handle off road or in snow greater then 12". . . . . A Honda would get very poor scores if the questions were based on off road based performance.
From my imaginary Consumer Reports article:

"Our Accord did very poorly on even the most modest of CR's muddy forest trails. We were immediately hung up on the first log we drove over, which caused extensive damage to the lower portion of our grille, and even the body. Honda would also be well-advised to rethink the complete absence of any kind of stock skid plate on the undercarriage--a pretty glaring deficiency given the Accord's lofty base cost.

We did notice that the cabin remained quiet during our efforts to rev out of the mud, and the intuitive controls for the sound system were a definite postive while we waited for one of CR's Wrangler fleet to come and winch us out. Ultimately, however, these benefits were overshadowed by our inability to extricate or otherwise help ourselves.

Overall, we were disappointed. Honda really should produce more capabilities for a vehicle in this price range. If you are looking for something with a smooth ride and good road manners, this is for you. But if you have even a passing interest in riding trails, you would be well served to look for something more substantial. This undoubtedly all contributes to the consistently low initial quality scores that the Accord continues to achieve each year."

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Old 02-01-2011, 12:13 PM   #53
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MTH, I just read your post quickly and missed the word "imaginary."

I was thinking - what the hell were they doing taking an Accord off road. Funny stuff.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:40 PM   #54
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From my imaginary Consumer Reports article:

"Our Accord did very poorly on even the most modest of CR's muddy forest trails. We were immediately hung up on the first log we drove over, which caused extensive damage to the lower portion of our grille, and even the body. Honda would also be well-advised to rethink the complete absence of any kind of stock skid plate on the undercarriage--a pretty glaring deficiency given the Accord's lofty base cost.

We did notice that the cabin remained quiet during our efforts to rev out of the mud, and the intuitive controls for the sound system were a definite postive while we waited for one of CR's Wrangler fleet to come and winch us out. Ultimately, however, these benefits were overshadowed by our inability to extricate or otherwise help ourselves.

Overall, we were disappointed. Honda really should produce more capabilities for a vehicle in this price range. If you are looking for something with a smooth ride and good road manners, this is for you. But if you have even a passing interest in riding trails, you would be well served to look for something more substantial. This undoubtedly all contributes to the consistently low initial quality scores that the Accord continues to achieve each year."

EPIC.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:57 PM   #55
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Wrangler was also near the bottom of the most recent JD Power quality study.

But hey, what's the point? You'll just tell me how their study doesn't matter either.

I'm not going to take the time to post links, they're out there if you want to take your head out of the sand and find them.

Lets do this since you're such a defender of the Wranglers reliability, show me a quality study where they're near the top.

I'll be waiting.
If you think they are POS than why the hell are you considering buying one??
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:29 PM   #56
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Lol @ mth
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:39 PM   #57
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If you think they are POS than why the hell are you considering buying one??
He needs something to complain about so people will give him attention. He probably has a small axelshaft and is all bent up about it

Here is the JD survey he was refering to but too LAZY to post the link to: JDPower.com | Wrangler

Powertrain is pretty much the only 'durable' point of the survey. The average score from the Initial Quality segment is 2.7777(i) which is .27 higher than that Predicted Reliability score of 2.5.

I had 1 bad experience with each of my 2 TJs:
The '02 had somehow burned out its exaust valves at 43k. The dealer then made it worse by installing the new ones backwards. Eventually fixed.

Then the '04 at 62k had the firing point of the spark plug in piston #1 break off and fall down into the cylinder where it just merily banged around while the engine misfired.

No biggie BUT the jeep was returned to me at the dealer with a broken drivers side mirror (not the glass but the part that pivots on the base that attaches to the door) that would no longer stay put / blew back into the door in freeway-like winds. They refused to own up to it but no matter..that Jeep was tragically KILLED a few weeks later.

In other words, the vehicle problems were minimum but the dealer service departments were kinda lame.
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:22 AM   #58
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As toast to YEARS of Jeep reliability, how many Jeeps do you see stuck on the side of the road on a daily basis? How decade old Jeeps do you see making the daily commute back and forth to work and still have to capability to hit the trails and out perform the newest (_________ insert subpar performing 4WD here)? Jeep is the model for customer appreciation, durability, reliability, and darn good looks.

Plus I can drive up to a woman and say hey baby, wanna go topless? And instead of punching me in the face, she will jump right in. Chicks love Jeeps!
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:01 PM   #59
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Wrangler was also near the bottom of the most recent JD Power quality study.

But hey, what's the point? You'll just tell me how their study doesn't matter either.

I'm not going to take the time to post links, they're out there if you want to take your head out of the sand and find them.

Lets do this since you're such a defender of the Wranglers reliability, show me a quality study where they're near the top.

I'll be waiting.
95% of the "cars" i see on trails are JKs, *Js.
From time to time i see a Suzuki so, yes, the most unreliable around.
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:12 AM   #60
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Posts: 15
Does anyone if significant changes are coming to the wrangler 2 door in future years and what are they?

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