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Old 09-16-2013, 06:34 AM   #31
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Diesel fuel cost is a pretty consistent 20%-20% more than gasoline at the pump where I live. I'd consider the extra usable torque advantage that a diesel might provide in some situations a true advantage ( -vs- a trade off) if it also gave me a solid 20-25% better gas mileage as well. The Grand Cherokee CRD guys are posting "real world" highway numbers between 20 and 25MPG - bearing in mind the GC weights more, but has better aerodynamics...
I'd also have to see how it plays in a Wrangler with rear end and transmission gearing as it is. These repurposed Sprinter Van engines are suppose to be good, but are not renowned for being of the same "performance" class as VW and Mercedes passenger car engines, nor are they Cummins diesel "workhorses" either. They are designed to drive around urban centers 12 to 18 hours a day and deliver things without breaking down. I have doubts about towing 7500lbs with a Wrangler as well... or at least, a with a coil sprung Wrangler optimized for daily driving and off-roading.
The Diesel engines in the GC is not a repurposed sprinter van engine. Completely different engine built by VM Motori, not Mercedes Benz.

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Old 09-16-2013, 06:40 AM   #32
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You guys are bringing so many variables to this thread that I can't follow. oh well...

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Old 09-16-2013, 07:33 AM   #33
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I do love a good diesel. But let's be real. These are wranglers. Not Ram 2500's. No amount of torque will matter much without an extended wheelbase. It's not going to become a tow master regardless.

The vast majority of us don't have 37"+ tires and crawl over rocks all day. So while gobs of low end torque is cool, that isn't where most owners spend the majority of their time. There is a reason why modern diesels are changing so much (lighter, higher revving etc)

The 240hp diesel in the wrangler is not going to beat a pstar in a drag race. You can mod it sure, but you can mod the V6 too thanks to Ripp and others.

Fuel cost more, service, parts and maintenance are sure to be higher as well.

Don't get me wrong, if they build one I would take a serious look at it. Not because I need it though. Just because it would be flat out cool.I have to say though, if they built a hemi wrangler as well it would be no contest as to which box to check.
I agree with basically everything you have said.

Personally, I would prefer a diesel vehicle - although, I am from Australia where diesel is the same price as petrol... Diesels are very well suited to 4wd as the low end torque is phenomenal. I find that I have to work hard with my 3.6 jk to traverse medium sized rocks. Putting it in low range for a 10 second rock climb is too painful, so instead i work hard balancing the clutch etc.. Diesels love that stuff. 4wd is a breeze with a diesel... And honestly, Diesels crush the jk at traffic lights (only with acceleration).
Not to mention, water forging is fairly common here. As you all know, Diesels have the advantage.
Overall, a diesel is more practical and is better suited to what we need in Aus. I sacrificed practicality for a vehicle that I genuinely love thanks to its character. The short wheel base is very handy also

In saying all of this, I would never buy a diesel wrangler unless they used the engine from a vehicle i am familiar with. Chrysler struggle to perfect their petrol engines, let alone a diesel that must withstand a lot more force. The transmission would be interesting also...
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:59 AM   #34
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I do love a good diesel. But let's be real. These are wranglers. Not Ram 2500's. No amount of torque will matter much without an extended wheelbase. It's not going to become a tow master regardless.

The vast majority of us don't have 37"+ tires and crawl over rocks all day. So while gobs of low end torque is cool, that isn't where most owners spend the majority of their time. There is a reason why modern diesels are changing so much (lighter, higher revving etc)

The 240hp diesel in the wrangler is not going to beat a pstar in a drag race. You can mod it sure, but you can mod the V6 too thanks to Ripp and others.

Fuel cost more, service, parts and maintenance are sure to be higher as well.

Don't get me wrong, if they build one I would take a serious look at it. Not because I need it though. Just because it would be flat out cool.I have to say though, if they built a hemi wrangler as well it would be no contest as to which box to check.
I agree to some of your points. Most people will not need the diesel, but most people don't need a jeep either. I may be one of the few who use the jeep for what its designed to do. I will buy a new wrangler if they offer it with a decent diesel, and it will have armor, lift, and 37s on it. These upgrades will not hurt the diesel as much as the gas because of the useable power in the lower rpm range.

As far as performance adders. A supercharger on a 3.6 from ripp will cost you more than 6k. A programmer for the diesel most likely will be under 600 bucks.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:04 AM   #35
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The Diesel engines in the GC is not a repurposed sprinter van engine. Completely different engine built by VM Motori, not Mercedes Benz.
Didn't know that. Thanks!
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:47 AM   #36
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That's a good point Rubi about the cost to mod. However, it brings some memories back that make me wonder. Are there currently any mods out there for this proposed diesel? If so, what kind of performance increase do they offer? The reason I ask is back in my diesel days, I remember learning a few lessons very quickly about the realities of going faster easier and cheaper in a diesel vs gas.

I had a 5.9 cummins and my buddy had a 2500 as well but with a big block. Stock for stock he beat me easily. I turned up the boost, added intake and exhaust and the tables instantly turned. He couldn't keep up for the life of him. Then he added a supercharger that he pieced together himself which ended up costing him thousands. I laughed at him spending so much but now I couldn't touch him so I looked into making more power out of mine.

That is when I realized little secret no one talks about lol. Sure, you can turn the wick up a bit from stock but if you want to make so REAL power, the receipts start stacking up in a hurry. Want more fuel? Gotta buy a bigger pump, and bigger injectors. Want more boost? Gotta buy a bigger turbo and intercooler and piping. And to top it all off, none of that was even an option until you spent thousands on upgrading the transmission to handle all that torque!

I'm curious how much of that stuff still affects modern diesels and modifying them. It's been years since I was in it. I've stuck to gas as it is my true love.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:11 AM   #38
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So, quarter mile times of 16.4 for the 3.6 4 door and 17.5 for the diesel 4 door. Well, that at least puts to rest the drag racing and the passing power arguments for sure. Stock for stock that is.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:41 AM   #39
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That's a good point Rubi about the cost to mod. However, it brings some memories back that make me wonder. Are there currently any mods out there for this proposed diesel? If so, what kind of performance increase do they offer? The reason I ask is back in my diesel days, I remember learning a few lessons very quickly about the realities of going faster easier and cheaper in a diesel vs gas.

I had a 5.9 cummins and my buddy had a 2500 as well but with a big block. Stock for stock he beat me easily. I turned up the boost, added intake and exhaust and the tables instantly turned. He couldn't keep up for the life of him. Then he added a supercharger that he pieced together himself which ended up costing him thousands. I laughed at him spending so much but now I couldn't touch him so I looked into making more power out of mine.

That is when I realized little secret no one talks about lol. Sure, you can turn the wick up a bit from stock but if you want to make so REAL power, the receipts start stacking up in a hurry. Want more fuel? Gotta buy a bigger pump, and bigger injectors. Want more boost? Gotta buy a bigger turbo and intercooler and piping. And to top it all off, none of that was even an option until you spent thousands on upgrading the transmission to handle all that torque!

I'm curious how much of that stuff still affects modern diesels and modifying them. It's been years since I was in it. I've stuck to gas as it is my true love.
LOL! Your absolutely right. That is why I only mentioned adding the programmer. I have a 04 cummins that is making around 600 h.p. I went a little beyond a tuner to get that. Injectors, larger cp3, larger turbo, lift pump, etc, and etc. But there are other diesels that you don't have to add all the extra upgrades to. Such as the 08-10 6.4 powerstroke. I know of several with just a Spartan tune getting around 600 h.p. The duramax is another that can achieve awesome results with just a tune. But I would imagine that you could squeeze at least another 75-100 h.p. out of the 3.0 with just a tune without much trouble. Only time will tell. Chrysler has to offer the option first.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:44 AM   #40
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So, quarter mile times of 16.4 for the 3.6 4 door and 17.5 for the diesel 4 door. Well, that at least puts to rest the drag racing and the passing power arguments for sure. Stock for stock that is.
Keep in mind that is not the 3.0 diesel that is offered in the Grand Cherokee.
The 3.0 diesel in the Grand Cherokee is quicker than the 3.6. This is the diesel we hope is going in the wrangler.

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel V-6 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee V-6 / V-8 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:00 PM   #41
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Keep in mind that is not the 3.0 diesel that is offered in Grand Cherokee.
The 3.0 diesel in the Grand Cherokee is quicker than the 3.6. This is the diesel we hope is going in the wrangler.

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel V-6 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee V-6 / V-8 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver
Oh I see, that was for the 2.8 not the 3.0. Got it. Well, I guess the debate goes on!
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:00 PM   #42
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It's a good thing I'm not racing my Jeep lol
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:03 PM   #43
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It's a good thing I'm not racing my Jeep lol
Hell, I'll race anything with an engine. But I admit I have a disease.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:22 PM   #44
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Hell, I'll race anything with an engine. But I admit I have a disease.
LOL Nice one.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:27 PM   #45
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Keep in mind that is not the 3.0 diesel that is offered in the Grand Cherokee.
The 3.0 diesel in the Grand Cherokee is quicker than the 3.6. This is the diesel we hope is going in the wrangler.

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel V-6 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee V-6 / V-8 First Drive – Review – Car and Driver
The 2.8 still makes a lot more torque than the Pentastar, so why isn't it faster?
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:11 PM   #46
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The 2.8 still makes a lot more torque than the Pentastar, so why isn't it faster?
Uh... ya, think it might be because it has 100 less h.p.? LOL! Are you just looking for an argument?
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:14 PM   #47
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Uh... ya, think it might be because it has 100 less h.p.? LOL! Are you just looking for an argument?
No, no - really, I just think folks fall in love with torque numbers and don't realize that power is important too. I guess I go a little overboard, but I think there are many misconceptions about torque vs. horsepower out there.

You are correct, the 100 hp is the reason!
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:22 PM   #48
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I think there are many misconceptions about torque vs. horsepower out there.
I agree, but what makes the diesel so sweet is its h.p. is at normal rpms. The diesel is the perfect platform for a wrangler. Well, its the perfect platform for those of us that actually use our jeeps for what it was originally designed for
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:25 PM   #49
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I agree, but what makes the diesel so sweet is its h.p. is at normal rpms. The diesel is the perfect platform for a wrangler. Well, its the perfect platform for those of us that actually use our jeeps for what it was originally designed for
Yes - exactly. Exactly.
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:29 PM   #50
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hp wins races torq wins pulling contests. generous amounts of both wins period. You can have high hp and low torq in high reving engines. Most diesels produce torq from the first turn of the crank and peak out early (non turbo etc) so hp not all that high. For off road use hard to beat gobs of torq right from the get go. Fuel costs is probably a push as diesels generally get better mpg. Oil changes are usually more tho because higher oil capacity. Worst thing about diesels is when getting fuel the area around diesel pumps is usually shitty because the diesel that gets spilled does not evaporate as readily as gasoline. Given a choice if it was not an extra $5000 like in most Chrysler applications I would take the Diesel in a wrangler any day.
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:11 PM   #51
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That's a good point Rubi about the cost to mod. However, it brings some memories back that make me wonder. Are there currently any mods out there for this proposed diesel? If so, what kind of performance increase do they offer? The reason I ask is back in my diesel days, I remember learning a few lessons very quickly about the realities of going faster easier and cheaper in a diesel vs gas.

I had a 5.9 cummins and my buddy had a 2500 as well but with a big block. Stock for stock he beat me easily. I turned up the boost, added intake and exhaust and the tables instantly turned. He couldn't keep up for the life of him. Then he added a supercharger that he pieced together himself which ended up costing him thousands. I laughed at him spending so much but now I couldn't touch him so I looked into making more power out of mine.

That is when I realized little secret no one talks about lol. Sure, you can turn the wick up a bit from stock but if you want to make so REAL power, the receipts start stacking up in a hurry. Want more fuel? Gotta buy a bigger pump, and bigger injectors. Want more boost? Gotta buy a bigger turbo and intercooler and piping. And to top it all off, none of that was even an option until you spent thousands on upgrading the transmission to handle all that torque!

I'm curious how much of that stuff still affects modern diesels and modifying them. It's been years since I was in it. I've stuck to gas as it is my true love.
Excellent point. I called it quits on modding my LX once I did all the "easy & cheap" stuff like heads, a cam, intake and exhaust. When you start getting into new rear ends and axle shafts, you start talking real money. One can easily spend the price of a second vehicle making the first one into something it was never intended to be. I should have bought a SRT-8 instead of a Daytona.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:48 PM   #52
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Look at the puff of smoke @ :57...whatever diesel that is ain't making it to the US in that configuration...if it shows up over here it will have a NOX and DPF (non diesel guys google it). Power and mileage killing emissions which we in the US get punished with.

I just sold a 3500 Dodge (2010) Diesel and the tailpipe is still clean enough to eat off of. It's nice and clean for the environment and pulling a flatbed with a farm tractor gets an awesome 11 MPG. Our old 2003 Dodge 3500 pulls the same trailer and gets 17....that's 6mpg (when loaded) to keep the exhaust clean.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:04 PM   #53
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People are also forgetting that with a simple chip, a diesel can almost double it's power output. The GC diesel can safetly do 300hp and nearly 600tq without breaking a sweat, while getting nearly 30mpg.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:38 PM   #54
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People are also forgetting that with a simple chip, a diesel can almost double it's power output. The GC diesel can safetly do 300hp and nearly 600tq without breaking a sweat, while getting nearly 30mpg.
Just curious because I know very little on Diesel engines why would a chip do so much? Do companies really limit them that much to reduce emissions?
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:01 PM   #55
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hp wins races torq wins pulling contests. generous amounts of both wins period. You can have high hp and low torq in high reving engines. Most diesels produce torq from the first turn of the crank and peak out early (non turbo etc) so hp not all that high. For off road use hard to beat gobs of torq right from the get go. Fuel costs is probably a push as diesels generally get better mpg. Oil changes are usually more tho because higher oil capacity. Worst thing about diesels is when getting fuel the area around diesel pumps is usually shitty because the diesel that gets spilled does not evaporate as readily as gasoline. Given a choice if it was not an extra $5000 like in most Chrysler applications I would take the Diesel in a wrangler any day.
Don't tell audi they can't win races with a diesel(TDI) or be fast!!

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/audi-r18-tdi/
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:06 PM   #56
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Btw my 2013 VW Touareg TDI curb weight 5285lbs 0-60 6.9 seconds 240hp 406 tq 8 speed auto 30+ miles per gallon.


Yep it's official!!! Gutless and slow!!

Bahahahaha!!!
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:08 PM   #57
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Oops!! I forgot eye roll!!
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:18 PM   #58
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Don't see too many of those running around lol. 6.9 0-60 is pretty fast no doubt about it. Not sure which ones are gas or not on this list. I do agree there are exceptions but in general diesels make torg down low and would be a great power plant in a wrangler.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:44 AM   #59
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I take it those knocking diesels in this thread haven't driven a turbo diesel from this decade. I'd take a well made diesel over the 3.6 any day.
Yes. But are you forgetting EPA's meddling?Once you tear off EPA mandates, you have A BEAST. It's amazing when you let it breath and exhale, unrestricted.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:52 AM   #60
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Obnoxiously noisy - no thanks.

Extra power after you turn it into a black cloud emitting stinker - no thanks.

We have enough particulate pollution here in the Salt Lake Valley - our air is very unhealthy in the winter and it really ticks me off when I see diesel pickups emitting huge black clouds with every shift.

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