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Old 12-06-2012, 11:09 AM   #61
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So what you are saying is there is no connection fore and aft where you cannot get to the backside for a nut and underneath all that holds the slider on is the body mount bolts? And I am assuming that you have to cut the body mount down to accommodate the slider?

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Old 12-06-2012, 11:13 AM   #62
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Why would I place a bolt over a body cavity? 5 bolts and 2 body mounts has been an industry standard for over a decade.
My Curries have 12 mounting points. 7 on the tub and 5 underneath.

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Old 12-06-2012, 11:25 AM   #63
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Why would I place a bolt over a body cavity? 5 bolts and 2 body mounts has been an industry standard for over a decade.
Aside from me being in total agreement with you in regards to manufacturing location and patent BS, I disagree with that fastening method. If that's the industry standard, then that standard has been far exceeded by some. I much prefer nutserts in the cavities underneath (leave the body mounts alone) and through-bolts with backing plates above. I realize you're hitting a price point and using a more sturdy fastening method would raise that but for discussion's sake, I thought it needed to be mentioned.
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Just so everyone knows. 5 minutes ago i purchased pocket fender flares for 178 dollars from china they are made of abs plastic which is the same plastic that my flares are now. I saved about 300 dollars doing this. I do not wheel hard and living in long island, I do not think I will be wheeling hard for a long time. I understand where every point is coming from on this thread but PetesJeeps is right in the end it comes down to what your budget is and the price of the product. Sorry man China won this battle hahaha BUT THEY HAVE NOT WON THE WAR
You're kind of annoying. Nobody cares about your pocket flares.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:30 AM   #64
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Aside from me being in total agreement with you in regards to manufacturing location and patent BS, I disagree with that fastening method. If that's the industry standard, then that standard has been far exceeded by some. I much prefer nutserts in the cavities underneath (leave the body mounts alone) and through-bolts with backing plates above. I realize you're hitting a price point and using a more sturdy fastening method would raise that but for discussion's sake, I thought it needed to be mentioned.

You're kind of annoying. Nobody cares about your pocket flares.
My point exactly.......
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc View Post
So what you are saying is there is no connection fore and aft where you cannot get to the backside for a nut and underneath all that holds the slider on is the body mount bolts? And I am assuming that you have to cut the body mount down to accommodate the slider?
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My Curries have 12 mounting points. 7 on the tub and 5 underneath.
I'm having a hard time reading your question. 5 bolts, 5 holes, 2 body mounts, no cutting of the body mounts.

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Old 12-06-2012, 11:51 AM   #66
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I was tryna make a point dickhead
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:54 AM   #67
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I disagree with that fastening method. If that's the industry standard, then that standard has been far exceeded by some. I much prefer nutserts in the cavities underneath (leave the body mounts alone) and through-bolts with backing plates above. I realize you're hitting a price point and using a more sturdy fastening method would raise that but for discussion's sake, I thought it needed to be mentioned.

You're kind of annoying. Nobody cares about your pocket flares.
I respect your preference, and am not arguing that fewer is superior. I have personally spun nutserts from over tightening so it's not something that I can offer to a potential customer with full confidence(someone will use an impact gun and it will come back on me). The locations that I chose are simple to install, require no special tools/knowledge, will never break free, and cost less(which seems to be what matters most to people).

5 holes/2 body mounts is MORE than enough to keep anything from ever moving. Would 20 mounting points be a selling point -- when does it become excess?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:55 AM   #68
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I was tryna make a point dickhead
The only point you're making is the same point a gnat makes.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:00 PM   #69
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I was tryna make a point dickhead
That you like the look and reputation that Bushwacker built...but would rather send your money to a nameless Chinese company stealing their design because you would rather have "many things" instead of "nice things"?
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:04 PM   #70
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I respect your preference, and am not arguing that fewer is superior. I have personally spun nutserts from over tightening so it's not something that I can offer to a potential customer with full confidence(someone will use an impact gun and it will come back on me). The locations that I chose are simple to install, require no special tools/knowledge, will never break free, and cost less(which seems to be what matters most to people).

5 holes/2 body mounts is MORE than enough to keep anything from ever moving. Would 20 mounting points be a selling point -- when does it become excess?
And are not as strong, period. Twenty would be silly but leaving the very end of the rocker unsupported right where you would pivot is a shoddy design. If the people that buy your products are not bright enough to be able to set a nutsert well then any of those options offered above, yours included, would suffice. FWIW though those BTF sliders have what look like 5 holes underneath as well....
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:07 PM   #71
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Hey man, I'm totally with you. Look at my signature
'ina

^Might be more fitting.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:08 PM   #72
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'ina

^Might be more fitting.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:14 PM   #73
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And no doubt that I could find a bunch of other companies that run your 5 and 2 method, Smittybilt, Rugged ridge etc all have the same setup. That doesn't mean it's the best way to go though does it.....But like Imped said, at the price point that you are trying to reach and for your taget audience, I suppose that your setup would be fine.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:20 PM   #74
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And are not as strong, period. Twenty would be silly but leaving the very end of the rocker unsupported right where you would pivot is a shoddy design. If the people that buy your products are not bright enough to be able to set a nutsert well then any of those options offered above, yours included, would suffice. FWIW though those BTF sliders have what look like 5 holes underneath as well....
What is your definition of strong? They are attached to the Jeep on both the vertical and horizontal plane. The bend is the strongest part of the rocker - it can not move up because of the bolts, nor can it move back because of the body mount bolts. I can go outside right now and swiss cheese the set on my Jeep, but it will not make them any stronger.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:29 PM   #75
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Im going to make that my signature as a joke for all the friendly people in this thread
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:31 PM   #76
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Thats funny if they make no difference than why would companies that test their products in Johnson valley like Currie, Savvy and Genright go through the trouble of designing and building them that way?
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:49 PM   #77
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Thats funny if they make no difference than why would companies that test their products in Johnson valley like Currie, Savvy and Genright go through the trouble of designing and building them that way?
You're appealing to an authority without backing your claim with logical evidence. Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but that is a logical fallacy.

Also, my $280 rockers that Brooks Custom Concepts built are made of 1/4" steel, have countersunk holes, have 6 nutcerts and mounting points beneath, have 5 bolts through the side with a sandwich plate, and are wheel well to wheel well. Sure, the welds aren't as pretty as Currie or Savvy, and i think they have 1" less coverage underneath. But they fit my needs.

That being said, for the most part discussion has been civil in this thread, lets be sure to keep it that way.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #78
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Thats funny if they make no difference than why would companies that test their products in Johnson valley like Currie, Savvy and Genright go through the trouble of designing and building them that way?
That would be an good question for Poison Spyder or Trail Gear.


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Old 12-06-2012, 01:10 PM   #79
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You're appealing to an authority without backing your claim with logical evidence. Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but that is a logical fallacy.
Whoa whoa, No need to go all philosophical here

All he's saying is that Currie, Savvy and Genright design their product for Johnson Valley that way. There's nothing to back up.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #80
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That would be an good question for Poison Spyder or Trail Gear.


Or I could ask the people that won the KOH Everyman challenge last year.. Would that be Currie/Savvy? Why yes it would!!
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #81
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Whoa whoa, No need to go all philosophical here

All he's saying is that Currie, Savvy and Genright design their product for Johnson Valley that way. There's nothing to back up.
No philosophy, just rhetoric of arguments he is claiming that those companies design it better since they are designed to go to that specific location he said, but he doesn't objectively say why they're better. Not saying he's wrong, I just enjoy a good argument with claims backed by evidence
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:21 PM   #82
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Or I could ask the people that won the Everyman challenge last year.. Would that be Currie/Savvy? Why yes it would!!
Once again, not to poke at you or anything, but what does using nutcerts to attach a rocker guard have to do with winning the Everyman challenge? That says more about their driving skill, suspension knowledge, etc.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:26 PM   #83
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Once again, not to poke at you or anything, but what does using nutcerts to attach a rocker guard have to do with winning the Everyman challenge? That says more about their driving skill, suspension knowledge, etc.
No poking taken but when one person alludes that their way is a standard and that anything else is unneccesary and thengoes on to post others that follow the design he is backing that ran KOH and lost. So I post the winners therefore it stands to reason that they are doing something right in their R&D right?
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:39 PM   #84
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No philosophy, just rhetoric of arguments he is claiming that those companies design it better since they are designed to go to that specific location he said, but he doesn't objectively say why they're better. Not saying he's wrong, I just enjoy a good argument with claims backed by evidence
I understand what you mean, but the location they are designed for speaks for it self.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #85
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No poking taken but when one person alludes that their way is a standard and that anything else is unneccesary and thengoes on to post others that follow the design he is backing that ran KOH and lost. So I post the winners therefore it stands to reason that they are doing something right in their R&D right?
That's a fair statement. However, I'm sure there are compromises between using nutcerts and using the body moints in terms of building time (I imagine its easier to make tabs then to make holes that line up exactly with the body mounts, not saying it's beyond Savvy/Currie of course since cheaper rockers do it), amount of hardware needed, etc, but I doubt that strength is purely the deciding factor. I'm obviously not knowledgeable enough to say which should be considered the standard, just throwing out possibilities of why different companies go different directions.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:47 PM   #86
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but the location they are designed for speaks for it self.
I think that's what InvertChaos is trying to get at; if that is in fact true, there should be evidence of what happens to these so called lesser made rockers when subjected to it. Given how quick people are to post up online whenever something fails them, you would think more examples would be seen.

Just playing devils advocate; for the record, I love everything about my Savvy rockers, especially the way they're designed. Can't get much better than them.

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However, I'm sure there are compromises between using nutcerts and using the body moints in terms of building time (I imagine its easier to make tabs then to make holes that line up exactly with the body mounts, not saying it's beyond Savvy/Currie of course since cheaper rockers do it), amount of hardware needed, etc, but I doubt that strength is purely the deciding factor. I'm obviously not knowledgeable enough to say which should be considered the standard, just throwing out possibilities of why different companies go different directions.
Seeing how Savvy does things, it should be easy to see that they wouldn't have done something in an inferior way just to save time. If anything, they would have upped the cost a bit to do things correctly. Talk with Blaine for a few minutes and you'll see that right away. I'm not Savvy so obviously I can't speak for them, but that's my experience.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:51 PM   #87
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That's a fair statement. However, I'm sure there are compromises between using nutcerts and using the body moints in terms of building time (I imagine its easier to make tabs then to make holes that line up exactly with the body mounts, not saying it's beyond Savvy/Currie of course since cheaper rockers do it), amount of hardware needed, etc, but I doubt that strength is purely the deciding factor. I'm obviously not knowledgeable enough to say which should be considered the standard, just throwing out possibilities of why different companies go different directions.
Mounting to the body mounts is easier to manufacture and is cheaper....compare something like TrailGear sliders and Savvy sliders and it'll be like comparing a Neon to a BMW. My old 5 bolt/2 mount sliders (Trail Gear) were put through hell and failed....no backing plates = torqued tub and using the body mounts places them at a different height than the unused mounts, which means the tub needs to bend for the mounts to sit flush or you just need to not torque the mounts down all the way. Either one is not good. Even with countersunk hardware, my sliders managed to move and brought the tub along for the ride. The Savvy units that replaced them literally straightened the tub and are impossible to move. The clamping force of the side bolts alone is enough to prevent movement but add in initial preload + the length of bolts below and the sliders are one with the tub. It's as stout of a mounting system as you can get.

I'm not taking sides here. Nalin is local to me and makes some fine products, one of which I use. I simply disagree with the 5 bolt/2 body mount being the 'standard.' Just because it's widely used--like poly bushings in control arm ends--doesn't mean it's right or deserving to be called the 'standard.' I speak with Gerald and Blaine on a regular basis. I assure you, if there's a better way to execute an existing product of there's then it's unknown to everyone.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:56 PM   #88
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I always understood that mounting to both the body mounts and the body itself could cause issues because the body typically had some flex over the mounts. I designed mine to mount only to the body and use a backing plate. I have had the weight of the jeep on them with no issues. I don't see mounting to the body mounts being superior, in my personal experience.

What race you won, where you wheel, and what the name on a product means nothing. I can make an equal product in my garage and drive to the mall with it. Doesn't change the quality. I wish people could form arguments that contain relevant facts.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #89
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Mounting to the body mounts is easier to manufacture and is cheaper....compare something like TrailGear sliders and Savvy sliders and it'll be like comparing a Neon to a BMW. My old 5 bolt/2 mount sliders (Trail Gear) were put through hell and failed....no backing plates = torqued tub and using the body mounts places them at a different height than the unused mounts, which means the tub needs to bend for the mounts to sit flush or you just need to not torque the mounts down all the way. Either one is not good. Even with countersunk hardware, my sliders managed to move and brought the tub along for the ride. The Savvy units that replaced them literally straightened the tub and are impossible to move. The clamping force of the side bolts alone is enough to prevent movement but add in initial preload + the length of bolts below and the sliders are one with the tub. It's as stout of a mounting system as you can get.

I'm not taking sides here. Nalin is local to me and makes some fine products, one of which I use. I simply disagree with the 5 bolt/2 body mount being the 'standard.' Just because it's widely used--like poly bushings in control arm ends--doesn't mean it's right or deserving to be called the 'standard.' I speak with Gerald and Blaine on a regular basis. I assure you, if there's a better way to execute an existing product of there's then it's unknown to everyone.
Thank you again and for Nalin to say that his "standard" is the standard and that anything more is not needed is ridiculous. That was my entire point that just cause thats how some or even alot of people do something doesnt mean it is the best way to do it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:13 PM   #90
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I always understood that mounting to both the body mounts and the body itself could cause issues because the body typically had some flex over the mounts. I designed mine to mount only to the body and use a backing plate. I have had the weight of the jeep on them with no issues. I don't see mounting to the body mounts being superior, in my personal experience.

What race you won, where you wheel, and what the name on a product means nothing. I can make an equal product in my garage and drive to the mall with it. Doesn't change the quality. I wish people could form arguments that contain relevant facts.

I beg to differ on that point.
Lets compare the poly joints on your Zone arms to the Johnny Joints on my Currie arms and tell me they are the same, that they will both under the same conditions function as well and last as long? I don't think so.

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