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Old 04-23-2013, 03:30 PM   #61
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I looked at those and they look sweet. I am most likely going to go with the Savvy full set up and have them outboard the shocks. That's about my limit financially.

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Old 04-23-2013, 03:57 PM   #62
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I've gone through two sets of lower rears. When you go fast, the factory tin foil arms can't hack it. Believe me at 50 mph through some rough sections you don't want them to give out. I've experienced it and I won't be gambling my life on it again.

Fact is without adjustable arms in the rear you'll need to be spot on welding those brackets because you won't have any cushion with the non adjustable factory arms. This is also why I ditched them.

Why are you driving 50 through "rough stuff"? We don't have any trails around here like that.

Why would you have to be "spot on" with the brackets? Just like there is a range of acceptable angle on a stock driveshaft, there is a range of angle that the dc joint on the new shaft can handle. As long as the angles are within that range, it will be fine. There is no such thing as a magic pinion angle. And some guys have argued that you don't want a perfect 0 degree angle at the axle end, because then the U joint is wearing on the same spot. Now that isn't really supported but it isn't refuted either. Guys on pirate weld up the pinion angles on their rigs all the time without worrying about adjustable arms and wheel a lot more than you or I. It's a very simple thing to get my whole setup done, put the axle in and rotate the pinion to 1-2 degrees below the tcase, and tack the brackets on. Double check all the angles at ride height and burn them in. If somehow it was bad enough that I needed arms, they are just a paycheck away. Not a big deal.

I would think you would know better than to try and talk about "facts" like that There are no rules, just suggestions. You know you have to think outside the box. It's simple math. There are angles that you have to operate within, you adhere to those and you can do anything. We have done an 8.8 for a buddies tj before and he didn't need arms. I have talked to probably 40-50 people about it and no one has expressed any issue with it. Sure it takes a little more measuring and care, but it's easy to set the brackets up with the artec truss and cake to use an angle finder... It really isn't hardcore tech. And although I don't think it's right, companies like ECGS sell bolt in setups based on measurements and lift height all the time that work fine for people. I guarantee you the axle isn't welded up right 100% of the time, and a ton of those axles are still on stock arms.

I don't know how this became a criticism of my build, but feel free to keep on topic and message me if you are so concerned about how I build MY jeep

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Old 04-23-2013, 03:57 PM   #63
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I looked at those and they look sweet. I am most likely going to go with the Savvy full set up and have them outboard the shocks. That's about my limit financially.
That's a solid setup. Still doing business with Stan?
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:03 PM   #64
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Why are you driving 50 through "rough stuff"? We don't have any trails around here like that.

Why would you have to be "spot on" with the brackets? Just like there is a range of acceptable angle on a stock driveshaft, there is a range of angle that the dc joint on the new shaft can handle. As long as the angles are within that range, it will be fine. There is no such thing as a magic pinion angle. And some guys have argued that you don't want a perfect 0 degree angle at the axle end, because then the U joint is wearing on the same spot. Now that isn't really supported but it isn't refuted either. Guys on pirate weld up the pinion angles on their rigs all the time without worrying about adjustable arms and wheel a lot more than you or I. It's a very simple thing to get my whole setup done, put the axle in and rotate the pinion to 1-2 degrees below the tcase, and tack the brackets on. Double check all the angles at ride height and burn them in. If somehow it was bad enough that I needed arms, they are just a paycheck away. Not a big deal.

I would think you would know better than to try and talk about "facts" like that There are no rules, just suggestions. You know you have to think outside the box. It's simple math. There are angles that you have to operate within, you adhere to those and you can do anything. We have done an 8.8 for a buddies tj before and he didn't need arms. I have talked to probably 40-50 people about it and no one has expressed any issue with it. Sure it takes a little more measuring and care, but it's easy to set the brackets up with the artec truss cake to use an angle finder...
Why would you want them spot on? You have no adjustability. You have one shot at getting it right...

Pinion angle belongs ~2 degrees low for axle wrap. (Yes it still happens even without links). Every vehicle has its own magic number for Driveline angles and that angle is dependent on many factors. If you think it's as simple as putting the axle under the jeep and going voila, its not. Don't mislead people and please try not to be ignorant Ryan. It costs time and money for both you and the other undereducated.

You should check your own facts. Cv joints are very finicky. You need to have your angles correct or you'll be replacing that cv quite often. Again ask me how I know. This is not my first rodeo.

I drove 50 through the rough stuff because in cali we do a thing called pre running. Broke one set pre running and another out in calico on the rocks.. Nuff said.

It never became criticism of your build. You threw it out there and I simply added some "thoughts". No more no less.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:53 PM   #65
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Okay man. You do your thing and I'll do mine. Half of your post echoed what I just said, and yes it is easy to set a pinion angle in comparison with the things going into my build. There is no adjust-ability? If the angle is correct why would I need it? I don't need to check my facts, you should. First it's not a constant velocity joint, it's a double cardan joint. Secondly, they have an maximum angle they can operate at, and as long as the driveshaft is set up in the correct orientation and the angle is under the maximum, it will be fine. Look at all the guys with high angle drivelines. I haven't mislead anyone, if anyone is doing the misleading it's you with your so called "facts". Every vehicle has it's own "magic number"? Really now. What happened to a function range of operation? A standard double cardan joint can be run up to around 22* and a high angle driveshaft can be run at up to 32 degrees. If the CV joint is within those parameters, then your fine. Plain and simple. No magic. Also you talk about the pinion angle being set low, which I already mentioned. I never said it's as simple as putting the axle under the rig and welding, obviously measurements must be made, But with the rig is set at ride height and the extra tube thickness is accounted for, along with any different between the stock and new coil pads, and the axle is placed and rotated at that adjusted ride height, at 2 degree below the tcase, And the brackets are tacked, springs and links installed, and the pinion angle rechecked and adjusted as needed, there really isn't anyway to go wrong... If that seems like a complex procedure to you, I don't know why.

I'm not saying that the pinion angle isn't important, but it's possible to get it 99% correct. Once you add things like new bumpers, weight in the back, a full tank of gas, a tire carrier or bigger spare, etc, it will alter the pinion angle as well. That kind of stuff never screws with anyones set up, so I don't think being half a degree off in the setup would cause any issues.

I think you are making an argument with me for no reason. Yes it is easier to get a perfect pinion angle with adjustable arms. You should have both. Some people get by with 1 set, usually uppers. Can the pinion angle be set up successfully with careful welding of the brackets when fabricating an axle? Absolutely. I do get what your trying to say, but it's not really a point worth arguing.

I don't need your approval or supposed know how to build my rig. I have plenty of other guys who are behind me on what I am doing. I don't want to purchase upper links if I will be replacing them in a few years with a triangulated 4 link setup. If I do need them, I will buy them, but I am not into buying unnecessary parts for my rig.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:25 PM   #66
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I did this on the street. Just sayin'.
stock rear upper control arms

Never dropshift a 4.0 TJ with new tires going uphill from a backward drift on asphalt.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:25 PM   #67
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Aside from all the assery going on in here... my honest opinion is that you need to at least wheel your jeep once stock, because it will actually amaze you. Plus that gives you a baseline of performance and you know what may or may not need to be improved on in the first place. If your interested in just lifting it, which i did i highly recommend the ZONE 4.25" combo lift (4.25" TJ Combo Lift J25/J26) it has a 3" spring lift, a 1" motor mount lift (to avoid T-case drops), and also a 1.25" body lift which is what you will need to preform most tummy tucks and high clearance skids in the future. That is a great kit all around as mentioned earlier in the thread BDS makes Zone so their products are great quality (i have been running this kit for a year on and off road) but it still gives you a great point to adapt your suspension as needed from there.

I would also recommend to OP to ignore all the bitching and arguing between GoldenSahara and Derp. They both have decent points in all those extraneous posts in your thread but they like to argue.... maybe i will make them an argument thread (maybe i have an idea there?)
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:34 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Commando Solo View Post
Aside from all the assery going on in here... my honest opinion is that you need to at least wheel your jeep once stock, because it will actually amaze you. Plus that gives you a baseline of performance and you know what may or may not need to be improved on in the first place. If your interested in just lifting it, which i did i highly recommend the ZONE 4.25" combo lift (4.25" TJ Combo Lift J25/J26) it has a 3" spring lift, a 1" motor mount lift (to avoid T-case drops), and also a 1.25" body lift which is what you will need to preform most tummy tucks and high clearance skids in the future. That is a great kit all around as mentioned earlier in the thread BDS makes Zone so their products are great quality (i have been running this kit for a year on and off road) but it still gives you a great point to adapt your suspension as needed from there.

I would also recommend to OP to ignore all the bitching and arguing between GoldenSahara and Derp. They both have decent points in all those extraneous posts in your thread but they like to argue.... maybe i will make them an argument thread (maybe i have an idea there?)

Good point. Understanding the capabilities stock and realistically assessing what you need is important.

And I am done arguing. I'm not doing anything new, my plans have been successfully carried out on other rigs before.


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I did this on the street. Just sayin'.
stock rear upper control arms

Never dropshift a 4.0 TJ with new tires going uphill from a backward drift on asphalt.


You know how hard I beat on mine, maybe mine are like hardened alien alloy stock CAs or something

I'm not dropping 300 on some CAs just to replace them shortly down the road.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:37 PM   #69
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I did this on the street. Just sayin'.
stock rear upper control arms

Never dropshift a 4.0 TJ with new tires going uphill from a backward drift on asphalt.
did these on a trail these are front uppers though irreverent but still XD replaces them with my spare set of stocks ( friend did a long arm and i inherited the short arms) went vertical on a trail on accident and and slipped off my line then slid whipping the front end around and smacked the driver tire on a rut and popped both control arms i believe they may have been bent prior but still broke. 130k later and under abusive hands.....

Great build Rye ill be going an 8.8 build soon because my d35 2 pinions n rings arent getting along....
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:44 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by blackhawk_TJ View Post
did these on a trail these are front uppers though irreverent but still XD replaces them with my spare set of stocks ( friend did a long arm and i inherited the short arms) went vertical on a trail on accident and and slipped off my line then slid whipping the front end around and smacked the driver tire on a rut and popped both control arms i believe they may have been bent prior but still broke. 130k later and under abusive hands.....

Great build Rye ill be going an 8.8 build soon because my d35 2 pinions n rings arent getting along....

Thanks man, if you need anything you know how to get a hold of me.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:04 PM   #71
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Thanks man, if you need anything you know how to get a hold of me.
will do brotha talk soon oh and my 2c for the actual thread.

im running rancho 5000's and 2 inch BB coil spacers front and rear. rubicon rear LJ springs and ZJ front upcountry coils right now i have 2.5 in front and 2.3 in the rear ( extra weight rear and front) if i did not have my winch and stinger in the front id probably have about 3.2 in the front and if i took out my lock bock and recovery equipment out of my lock box id probably have 3.1 in the rear. the shocks give decent absorption just a little stiff but i dont mind it my xj is stiff due to my strait front control arms :/ cant wait to get the angled ones!
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:57 PM   #72
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Aside from all the assery going on in here... my honest opinion is that you need to at least wheel your jeep once stock, because it will actually amaze you. Plus that gives you a baseline of performance and you know what may or may not need to be improved on in the first place. If your interested in just lifting it, which i did i highly recommend the ZONE 4.25" combo lift (4.25" TJ Combo Lift J25/J26) it has a 3" spring lift, a 1" motor mount lift (to avoid T-case drops), and also a 1.25" body lift which is what you will need to preform most tummy tucks and high clearance skids in the future. That is a great kit all around as mentioned earlier in the thread BDS makes Zone so their products are great quality (i have been running this kit for a year on and off road) but it still gives you a great point to adapt your suspension as needed from there.

I would also recommend to OP to ignore all the bitching and arguing between GoldenSahara and Derp. They both have decent points in all those extraneous posts in your thread but they like to argue.... maybe i will make them an argument thread (maybe i have an idea there?)
an excellent point. I have done just that. I have taken my 04 Sport out several times on stock everything and had a blast. They actually work well right out of the box. Now I have read this as well as many other threads and I ended up going with the 3" BDS kit with the 5500 shocks. Other than what came with the base kit, I added a front steering stabilizer from BDS. It is being installed now and should be done tomorrow. I talked with my local dealer who has experience with these and told me they hold up well. I am not going to do anything extreme on purpose and felt for me, this gave me the best for the buck.

@birdy35, I will let you know my thoughts after getting it back.

I was not comfortable installing myself, nor did I have the tools, time or a friend that I know that could help. My local dealer was great to walk me through several choices and never really badmouthed anything.

I appreciate all the dialog here as it helped me as well.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:45 AM   #73
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Thanks Spencer and everyone else. I still haven't made a decision yet but I will in the next couple of weeks and ill post here.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:22 AM   #74
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Unless you plan on spending some serious coin (>$3,000) to correct the geometry from lifting your Jeep 3", just leave it be. I have seen bone stock TJ's keep up with JKU's on 35's. Your 06 Rubi is perfect the way it is. Putting a lift kit on it will only make it worse. Put the money into a winch, roll cage and/or aluminum body armor if money is burning a hole in your pocket. Adding lift without compensating for the geometry will only hurt you on the trails.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:45 PM   #75
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Unless you plan on spending some serious coin (>$3,000) to correct the geometry from lifting your Jeep 3", just leave it be. I have seen bone stock TJ's keep up with JKU's on 35's. Your 06 Rubi is perfect the way it is. Putting a lift kit on it will only make it worse. Put the money into a winch, roll cage and/or aluminum body armor if money is burning a hole in your pocket. Adding lift without compensating for the geometry will only hurt you on the trails.
This is wrong. The suspension geometry at 3" is more than adequate for the weekend wheeler or even most hardcore guys. The savvy kit is very well done along with the Currie kit.

It's more so anything over 4" needs either long arms or custom due to control arm angles.

More money DOES NOT equate to a better suspension.
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Old 04-27-2013, 03:58 PM   #76
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This is wrong. The suspension geometry at 3" is more than adequate for the weekend wheeler or even most hardcore guys. The savvy kit is very well done along with the Currie kit.

It's more so anything over 4" needs either long arms or custom due to control arm angles.

More money DOES NOT equate to a better suspension.
Hey look you do know something
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:24 PM   #77
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Hey look you do know something
Will go back to Minnesota
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:45 PM   #78
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This is wrong. The suspension geometry at 3" is more than adequate for the weekend wheeler or even most hardcore guys. The savvy kit is very well done along with the Currie kit.

It's more so anything over 4" needs either long arms or custom due to control arm angles.

More money DOES NOT equate to a better suspension.
Correct, a 3" lift is fine with stock CA's but its better if you replace the front LCA's to fix your angles closer to stock to keep it handling like factory.

Btw Derp I completely agree with you, more money doesnt equate a better suspension.

3" BDS coils FatBobsGarage $250
4" RC N2O shocks
A 1.25BL with a MML will make it so you dont need a Tcase drop $150
Front LCA's - Im running RC adj. X-Flex and their great, I have no complaints $180
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:48 PM   #79
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Correct, a 3" lift is fine with stock CA's but its better if you replace the front LCA's to fix your angles closer to stock to keep it handling like factory.

Btw Derp I completely agree with you, more money doesnt equate a better suspension.

3" BDS coils FatBobsGarage $250
4" RC N2O shocks
A 1.25BL with a MML will make it so you dont need a Tcase drop $150
Front LCA's - Im running RC adj. X-Flex and their great, I have no complaints $180
Good setup, why does it appear that your spring is unseated?
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:50 PM   #80
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Good setup, why does it appear that your spring is unseated?
Cause it is I can unseat all 4 springs and remove them without unbolting my shocks.

4" RC N2O Shocks with 3" BDS Coils
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:52 PM   #81
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Cause it is I can unseat all 4 springs and remove them without unbolting my shocks.

4" RC N2O Shocks with 3" BDS Coils
That's crazy haha, I haven't tried on mine but I have 10" (I think) travel shocks and 3" springs so it may be possible.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:56 PM   #82
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Get some spring retainers, they're cheap. I'll be having the same issues when my Fox's go in the rear. I also need to add limit straps. My shocks are being used to limit travel. When they're unbolted the 3 link let's the axle down to the floor almost.

Limit straps and retainers are your friend.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:19 PM   #83
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That's crazy haha, I haven't tried on mine but I have 10" (I think) travel shocks and 3" springs so it may be possible.
I found out I can do this when I tried to pull up on a buddy's 35 and unseated 2 springs

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Get some spring retainers, they're cheap. I'll be having the same issues when my Fox's go in the rear. I also need to add limit straps. My shocks are being used to limit travel. When they're unbolted the 3 link let's the axle down to the floor almost.

Limit straps and retainers are your friend.
Nah they wont come out on the trail, Its good
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:45 PM   #84
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Got the Jeep back today and it looks and drives great. Only one day but I drove about 75 miles total. I will keep you updated on the outcome after more time with it, but initial feedback I have is great. I measured and with the tires and the Lift installed, I am now sitting about 5 3/4" higher than before as measured by the wheel wells I took before and after. You can see the before in my Avatar so it is an amazing difference. I will try and get a more detailed write-up but here is the first picture.


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Old 04-27-2013, 10:21 PM   #85
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David, not saying this directly at you, but spring rate and unsprung length has a lot to do with whether your coil will unseat or not as well. I know with your small front stretch and stuff it's a little bit more than normal as well, but just putting the info out there. When running longer travel or other modified shocks, often times a spring with a taller unsprung length will be used in order to apply some force down through the suspension travel, and prevent the spring from unseating.

Derp, that really sucks that your shocks are limiting right now. Do you have pics of your 3-link in your build or somewhere? I never did get to check it out.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:51 PM   #86
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This is wrong. The suspension geometry at 3" is more than adequate for the weekend wheeler or even most hardcore guys. The savvy kit is very well done along with the Currie kit.

It's more so anything over 4" needs either long arms or custom due to control arm angles.

More money DO OT equate to a bettension.
It has nothing to do with an expensive lift. The geometry of a 3" lift on stock brackets is horrible. If you don't believe me, plug the numbers into a suspension calculator and figure it out for yourself. Neither Savvy nor Currie short arms help the geometry with 3" of lift on stock brackets and a 4" long arm creates bigger problems with clearance than the geometry benefits they attempt to solve.

Solving the problem correctly will cost more than $3k.
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:26 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by GoldenSahara00 View Post
David, not saying this directly at you, but spring rate and unsprung length has a lot to do with whether your coil will unseat or not as well. I know with your small front stretch and stuff it's a little bit more than normal as well, but just putting the info out there. When running longer travel or other modified shocks, often times a spring with a taller unsprung length will be used in order to apply some force down through the suspension travel, and prevent the spring from unseating.
I agree, but I couldnt pass up the price for BDS springs especially after all the good reviews. The thing is tho Sakicnut is running the 4"N2O kit with the lower rate and taller spring and he can still unseat his.

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It has nothing to do with an expensive lift. The geometry of a 3" lift on stock brackets is horrible. If you don't believe me, plug the numbers into a suspension calculator and figure it out for yourself. Neither Savvy nor Currie short arms help the geometry with 3" of lift on stock brackets and a 4" long arm creates bigger problems with clearance than the geometry benefits they attempt to solve.

Solving the problem correctly will cost more than $3k.
B.S.
1. The stock bracket locations are fine, just as long as your CA angles aren't too sharp
2. There is such thing as a high clearance Long Arm
3. Relocating the stock brackets wont cost $3k, even with the price of 8 adj CA's thrown in, you could do it for $1k or less.
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:35 PM   #88
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Correct, a 3" lift is fine with stock CA's but its better if you replace the front LCA's to fix your angles closer to stock to keep it handling like factory.

Btw Derp I completely agree with you, more money doesnt equate a better suspension.

3" BDS coils FatBobsGarage $250
4" RC N2O shocks
A 1.25BL with a MML will make it so you dont need a Tcase drop $150
Front LCA's - Im running RC adj. X-Flex and their great, I have no complaints $180
How much bump stop did you add?
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:39 PM   #89
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How much bump stop did you add?
0"... Im using shock mounted bumpstops
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:59 PM   #90
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I agree, but I couldnt pass up the price for BDS springs especially after all the good reviews. The thing is tho Sakicnut is running the 4"N2O kit with the lower rate and taller spring and he can still unseat his.



B.S.
1. The stock bracket locations are fine, just as long as your CA angles aren't too sharp
2. There is such thing as a high clearance Long Arm
3. Relocating the stock brackets wont cost $3k, even with the price of 8 adj CA's thrown in, you could do it for $1k or less.
Send me the quote. If you can take a stock TJ to 3" of lift with the same geometry as stock for less than a $1,000, I will bring my Jeep to you this week with cash in hand. No bs. I am in the process of piecing together the same system as we speak. New shocks, new coils and rod ends are more than $1,000.

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