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Old 01-10-2013, 10:10 AM   #61
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And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?
Oh, and I'd like to hear your answer to this.

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:12 AM   #62
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What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?
Mostly shock travel, but there are other factors. Do you have tire clearance issues? Front track bar clearance issues?

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Answer: Shocks

Your axle can't travel any further up than the shock's compressed length, nor can it travel any further down than the shock's extended length. So when people pose up on walls and say "look how flexy this XYZ stuff is", I always first look at the shock mounts/coil mounts to see if they've been modified. If they're stock, then it's not the XYZ stuff being 'flexy.' It's simply the axles doing what they do and the shocks preventing any further travel.

I don't care if you've got 3" Currie springs or 3" ProComp springs--if you've got stock mounts and haven't done anything to effectively allow the use of longer shocks, then your shocks are about the same length as the next guy's on XYZ 3" springs. Therefore, your Jeep will 'flex' just as much as his regardless of what else you've got going on with your suspension.

So with that said, a few more questions to help provoke some actual technical discussion in order to help some people learn.
What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?

Limit suspension travel correctly, and set them to prevent the first instance of intolerable interference, whether it be from the tires, control arms, shocks, track bars, etc.

What happens when your shock allows more travel than your spring can support?

Either coil bind or unseating which the latter means effectively have no weight on that part of the axle/tire/ground without the weight of the jeep on it,other than the weight of the axle/tire itself, and everything else that goes hand in hand with those circumstances.

What happens when your shock travel exceeds the range of motion limitations of the control arm and track bar bushings?

You have to fix your arms and eliminate your track bar(s)

And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?

It doesn't allow the suspension to function as intended, and simply put decreases stability. Often times being disconnected can hurt you on the trail.


Those are some pretty basic answers to your questions. I think we could have a full thread on each of them.

I agree with the advice in this thread. You don't want to just spend money based on someones general advice on something you don't understand. Learn for yourself.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:28 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
Yes, shocks are the main contributing, or limiting, factor in overall travel. But, there are other things to consider that will affect travel, especially up-travel.Example- What if you have a 3" spring spacer and a front track bar that hits your fancy aluminum front diff cover? You would add appropriate bump stops, but you've severely limited up-travel, no matter how much compression the shock absorber might have left.
I'm not arguing, I'm discussing..
I know, look at the bolded word below. I'm starting this discussion at the most basic possible place and want to look at one component at a time. Therefore, toss everything out the window and look at just the shocks.
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What ultimately defines how much travel a suspension has?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
Oh, and I'd like to hear your answer to this.
This has been discussed ad nausea on here and other forums. Here's a couple links for you with some very good discussion. If you need more, ask.
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/anti...-124765-4.html
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/rear...ar-156322.html

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Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
Mostly shock travel, but there are other factors. Do you have tire clearance issues? Front track bar clearance issues?
You're on the right track. Determine where the first instance of interference is--tire against the fender, track bar against the diff, etc--and either set the bump stops to prevent it from happening or change things up to move that instance down stream. For example, if I still ran stock fenders that'd be my first instance of interference by a long shot. But switching from those to highline fenders moved that instance far downstream, enough that it took a back seat to the track bar, diff cover and steering linkage all wanting to play in the same small space. My bump stops are set to prevent that from happening. That's how you want to go about it--then purchase a shock that will leave you with ~1/2" piston exposed at that point or set up the mounts to allow that. Let the springs determine where ride height is. But remember, you want a shock and spring that agree so do that once you've determined full bump.

EDIT: Nice answers, Golden.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:34 AM   #65
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It's like there's almost real tech on WF, outside of a build thread

You make a great point about modified shock mounting, which is why they are on my list for the first mod after my axle swap. It's something that isn't very expensive to do at all, either, compared to the thousands of dollars people will drop on other things. It just takes time and knowledge, something people either willingly or unwillingly seem to lack anymore.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:45 AM   #66
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So with all of that said, is there a TJ-suitable coil spring that can support more than 12" of shock travel?

Nope, not that I've found.

So now back to the OP's question--what in the world is the best suspension for max travel?

Answer: Well, start out with some good 4" springs--Currie springs have the longest resting length I've seen. Next, order up some 12" travel shocks of your choice--Fox, Bilstein, etc. If you'd like to stay with stock control arm mounts, you had better get some components that can handle that kind of travel--you're basically left with Currie there as well or else you'll be wearing out bushings left and right. If you'd like to cut off all of the stock mounts and go custom, there's that option as well but that takes a bit more homework, knowledge and resources. If you'd like to move the rear shock mounts up and out, that's a great option but it, again, requires some knowledge and fab resources.

If you want more than 12" of travel, you might as well move away from the TJ tub and frame because you'll have to tear most of it up to make good use of it anyway. There are very few instances where more than that much travel is actually needed--plenty of KOH rigs and comp buggies run 12" travel. If you truly need more, build a buggy and start learning about coilovers , air shocks and ORI struts.

What if you want 12" travel with less than +4" on your TJ? You can do that too but you'll have to move the coil mounts apart so that you can fit a longer spring without moving up that amount. That's what I've done. I run 3" Currie coils and 11" shocks but only sit at about 1.5" over stock (19.5" at the frame rails on 37's).

OP, going by what you've said you don't need nearly as much travel as you seem to think you do. I do some of the toughest stuff in the midwest just fine with less than that.....believe me, if I thought I needed more, I'd have it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:55 AM   #67
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OK for the sake of my learning something I'm going to bite your bait. My experience comes from Road Racing and drag racing so I am learning 4x4 principles.
1.Bump stops are to slow down the compression stroke of the suspension and cushion the impact before it either coil binds or hits the shocks upper stop. Some shocks have built in bump stops but they tend to load the shock mounts way beyond what most are designed to do.
2.I would think that you would want to have a predetermined amount of extra travel to eliminate the possibility of the shock bottoming or topping out.
3. Something has got to give. If the joint won't allow the extra movement your going to either bend an arm or bend a mount.
4. In road racing the action of the sway bar is to reduce body roll and camber curve changes. This keeps a flatter contact patch on all 4 wheels. Even though a jeep is a solid axle as it lifts or drops on one side the tire describes an arc. This changes track width and contact patch width. It also because of our track bars changes the axle centerline. I don't run unhooked because I think it would allow too much body roll on off camber hills. I run an antirock to keep a bit of off side pressure on the down hill tire.
Ok boss my best guesses. I've seen your build so I'm waiting to learn 4x4 suspension 101.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Answer: Shocks

Your axle can't travel any further up than the shock's compressed length, nor can it travel any further down than the shock's extended length. So when people pose up on walls and say "look how flexy this XYZ stuff is", I always first look at the shock mounts/coil mounts to see if they've been modified. If they're stock, then it's not the XYZ stuff being 'flexy.' It's simply the axles doing what they do and the shocks preventing any further travel.

I don't care if you've got 3" Currie springs or 3" ProComp springs--if you've got stock mounts and haven't done anything to effectively allow the use of longer shocks, then your shocks are about the same length as the next guy's on XYZ 3" springs. Therefore, your Jeep will 'flex' just as much as his regardless of what else you've got going on with your suspension.

So with that said, a few more questions to help provoke some actual technical discussion in order to help some people learn.

What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?

What happens when your shock allows more travel than your spring can support?

What happens when your shock travel exceeds the range of motion limitations of the control arm and track bar bushings?

And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?
Bump stops should be adjusted to prevent coils from binding and shocks from over compressing from a suspensions standpoint, they should be adjusted based on compressing one side of the suspension at full droop.

When a shock allows more droop than the spring can support then you would either want to go with a spring that will allow more droop while staying seated or add a limiting strap.

On the third one, I have only seen where the stock control arms will bend when they bind. I've also seen where excessive droop with rough play will damage the mounts and bushing.

On link suspension the downward force on a drooped tire will be much less with disconnects than if there is something linking it to the other wheel. This results in less traction on the drooping tire, which often needs the most traction.

Those are my answers, I'm sure there is a lot more to it than that though.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:36 PM   #70
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Have fun learning, everyone. My job here is done.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:48 PM   #71
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:02 PM   #72
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Did you ever figure out how to disco?
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:49 PM   #73
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:56 PM   #74
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Gotcha. That lift I posted above is on my dream lift for when I finally win powerball or megamillions. I see no other way my wife would let me spring for that any other way. Heck, I'm hoping my UPS man delivers my next batch of parts before she gets home on Friday. I need to hide them and put them on slowly over the course of weeks.
LOL.....I need to find some sort of good step, slider, running board, climbing rope, etc before I go any higher. I'll need to add lift and step at the same time so she won't realize.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:12 PM   #75
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LOL.....I need to find some sort of good step, slider, running board, climbing rope, etc before I go any higher. I'll need to add lift and step at the same time so she won't realize.
My wife won't get into my Jeep anymore. I laughed too hard the last time she tried and she's 4" taller than me.

Oh, and my Currie AntiRock was installed today. Only 2 trackbars, 4 springs, 8 control arms, SYE, and driveshaft to go. If she finds out I'll tell her it was all free after I sell off my old stuff.

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