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Old 04-22-2012, 04:24 PM   #31
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Since y'all seem to know a lot about brakes:

It doesn't feel like I am getting much brake power from my rear drum brakes. Also, my e-brake does not FULLY engage, no even when I pull it all the way up. I got all new rear brakes after a winter mishap. They just don't seem to be self-adjusting like they should. Any ideas?

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Old 04-22-2012, 04:25 PM   #32
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As for the e brake you can tighten the cable under you chassis. Drum brake adjustment...no idea.

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Old 04-22-2012, 04:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford
There is a huge misconception by many about what ABS does and its purpose. Most people think ABS's purpose is to shorten braking distance but they are wrong. ABS was actually developed to remove the need to threshhold brake to maintain the ability to steer. You can't steer if your brakes are locked up. It was first designed for use on airplanes

Antilock Brake Systems (ABS)
Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), Traction Control
EU - Road safety - Anti-lock braking systems in cars (ABS)

From that last link, its opening paragraph says it all:

"What are anti-lock braking systems (ABS)?

The main purpose of ABS is to prevent skidding where loss of steering and control result from locked wheels when braking hard. Such systems are now fitted to many new cars. This is intended to provide additional steering in the emergency situation, not to decrease stopping distances." (their words, not mine)

And from Anti-Lock Brakes? look where it says:

"Remember that ABS brakes do not help you stop quicker under most conditions. They do help you maintain steering control during braking so you can veer around obstacles." (their words, not mine)

And lastly... look at the name of the system... anti-skid braking system. That explains its purpose. In some situations, ABS can shorten stopping distance but in other situations it will lengthen stopping distance... which makes sense because its ultimate true purpose is not about shortening stopping distances at all.

For those in this thread who want to ignore the facts and go on believing the purpose of ABS is to shorten stopping distances, be my guest.
Well Jerry, for starters I agree with you. I said that already in this thread. Nowhere did it say in your articles that locking the brakes up was better than abs or threshold braking.

Threshold braking>abs>locking breaks

You keep saying "certain conditions" and I know we're all wondering what these conditions are?

Here's a question. If locking the brakes stop you so much better. Why don't the rear weeks lock up and the front lock up as well, but then trigger the abs when steering input is added ? Wouldn't that be the best?

As far as I'm concerned there aren't any "facts" in this thread yet.

You haven't disproved my original statement yet either. As far as I'm concerned we agree here:

Locking the brakes severely inhibits steering.

Both abs and threshold braking allow steering.

Abs is not the best braking technique in all situations.

There is some lack of clarity here:

In some situations, locking the brakes is the best.



Now, I limited my statement to practical driving. I don't like making blanket statements.
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:28 PM   #34
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subscribed...mine make a god awful racket as well
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBsack
Since y'all seem to know a lot about brakes:

It doesn't feel like I am getting much brake power from my rear drum brakes. Also, my e-brake does not FULLY engage, no even when I pull it all the way up. I got all new rear brakes after a winter mishap. They just don't seem to be self-adjusting like they should. Any ideas?
Supposedly drums are only 10-20 percent of the braking power in a TJ. This is from Blaine from black magic. I don't know any solid facts about them.
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jeepwayoflife

And Jerry wins again! You can't possibly argue with this...
It's people like you who drown in kool-aid...
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by GoldenSahara00 View Post
Supposedly drums are only 10-20 percent of the braking power in a TJ. This is from Blaine from black magic. I don't know any solid facts about them.
It's actually that the rear brakes, whether they are drum or disk, only provide 20-25% of the braking. Weight transfer towards the front during braking requires that the brake proportioning valve limit the amount of braking force at the rear to prevent the rear brakes from locking up which will cause wild skidding.
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
It's actually that the rear brakes, whether they are drum or disk, only provide 20-25% of the braking. Weight transfer towards the front during braking requires that the brake proportioning valve limit the amount of braking force at the rear to prevent the rear brakes from locking up which will cause wild skidding.

Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact numbers

anyways, here is an article:

Antilock Brake Systems (ABS)


"Perhaps, but that's not the main purpose of ABS. It is a system designed to help you maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not necessarily make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and most systems may shorten stopping distances on dry roads.


On very soft surfaces, such as gravel or unpacked snow, ABS may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or icy conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.''

I assume that the the gravel or unpacked snow is what you were refering to with "certain" road conditions. I also mentioned gravel as one I could see that happening. On these surfaces, locking the brakes would allow the gravel or snow or whatever to build up infront of the tires, aiding in stopping.

This said, I only meant my original statement regaurding ABS as an example of how threshold braking is applied in ABS systems, not as a main point but as a benefit.

I don't see the point of continuing this discussion further. I think we both know where we stand, which isn't far apart. I simply dispute the fact that locking the brakes is good when driving around on a day to day basis.
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Old 04-22-2012, 05:01 PM   #39
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Regardless of all the brake debating.. I locked up my 35" MTR's over the weekend on the way back from Rausch Creek. I have stock braking system. I didn't hit anybody.
I was surprised at how loud the 35s roared to a stop, lol.

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Old 04-22-2012, 06:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBR97
Regardless of all the brake debating.. I locked up my 35" MTR's over the weekend on the way back from Rausch Creek. I have stock braking system. I didn't hit anybody.
I was surprised at how loud the 35s roared to a stop, lol.

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Old 04-22-2012, 06:10 PM   #41
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Yeah. I have stock brakes too. And I'm pretty sure I don't have ABS (I have a 98). And as said before with the 1986 minivan not having ABS when ur 16. I'm 16 and have a jeep with no ABS. Pretty scary stuff!!
So maybe it was your lack of driving experience that led you to rear-end someone, not your lack of braking ability......
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:11 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post

And to me, $125 for GOOD brake pads that won't squeal and will make me stop better is cheap.
X2 !!

It's worth the money not to hear that squeal EVERY DAY let alone being able to stop better. Nothing is more of a day killer than a Fender Bender.
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc

So maybe it was your lack of driving experience that led you to rear-end someone, not your lack of braking ability......
It's prolly a mix of both. I'm not a bad driver. I've also driven in the demo derby so I know what it feels like to lock up the brakes and slide so it wasn't as bad as most would be
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by GoldenSahara00 View Post
Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact numbers

anyways, here is an article:

Antilock Brake Systems (ABS)


"Perhaps, but that's not the main purpose of ABS. It is a system designed to help you maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not necessarily make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and most systems may shorten stopping distances on dry roads.


On very soft surfaces, such as gravel or unpacked snow, ABS may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or icy conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.''

I assume that the the gravel or unpacked snow is what you were refering to with "certain" road conditions. I also mentioned gravel as one I could see that happening. On these surfaces, locking the brakes would allow the gravel or snow or whatever to build up infront of the tires, aiding in stopping.

This said, I only meant my original statement regaurding ABS as an example of how threshold braking is applied in ABS systems, not as a main point but as a benefit.

I don't see the point of continuing this discussion further. I think we both know where we stand, which isn't far apart. I simply dispute the fact that locking the brakes is good when driving around on a day to day basis.
The only time I've ever come close to wrecking a vehicle that didn't belong to me is driving a rented Land Rover Discovery on the way back from dinner one night in JV.

On a road and upcoming turn I'd driven hundreds of times at speed, the ABS in the Disco kicked in in the middle of a turn that had some washboard. I blew the turn because I couldn't scrub off any speed and narrowly missed a large mound of creosote which at best would have flattened the street tires or worst, flipped us.

It was a bit disheartening to be in the middle of a braking event and then have no brakes whatsoever.

But, I do love my ABS on the tow rig.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:51 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes

The only time I've ever come close to wrecking a vehicle that didn't belong to me is driving a rented Land Rover Discovery on the way back from dinner one night in JV.

On a road and upcoming turn I'd driven hundreds of times at speed, the ABS in the Disco kicked in in the middle of a turn that had some washboard. I blew the turn because I couldn't scrub off any speed and narrowly missed a large mound of creosote which at best would have flattened the street tires or worst, flipped us.

It was a bit disheartening to be in the middle of a braking event and then have no brakes whatsoever.

But, I do love my ABS on the tow rig.
Sounds like fun to me. I don't have any experience with abs in my jeep. So I can't comment. I do know I have locked up the brakes once on road when a woman pulled out in front of me. I was able to brake then pump the brakes after the locked up and swerve around her, going around 50 on a two lane rural road. If I would have hit her it wouldn't have been good for her... I know if my brakes had locked up, I wouldn't have been able to steer around her. I am lucky I knew what to do. Also when they did initially lock up they howled like hell. And didn't really slow me at all. I don't know how I would like abs but I know I don't like locking the breaks up on road. Offroad, I need a good set to hold me. My stock set aren't doing the job so I am currently on the market for some new ones.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:53 PM   #46
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IMO ABS is pretty much worthless
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:05 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenSahara00

Sounds like fun to me. I don't have any experience with abs in my jeep. So I can't comment. I do know I have locked up the brakes once on road when a woman pulled out in front of me. I was able to brake then pump the brakes after the locked up and swerve around her, going around 50 on a two lane rural road. If I would have hit her it wouldn't have been good for her... I know if my brakes had locked up, I wouldn't have been able to steer around her. I am lucky I knew what to do. Also when they did initially lock up they howled like hell. And didn't really slow me at all. I don't know how I would like abs but I know I don't like locking the breaks up on road. Offroad, I need a good set to hold me. My stock set aren't doing the job so I am currently on the market for some new ones.
So when ur brakes lock do you just pump them as fast as you can that way you don't skid?
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #48
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It's people like you who drown in kool-aid...
Funny you say that, its already happened twice...
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:17 PM   #49
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IMO ABS is pretty much worthless
I honestly don't know or care, probably is. It's for luxury. But I didn't even want to introduce it into this discussion lol. Oh well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckinwater

So when ur brakes lock do you just pump them as fast as you can that way you don't skid?
No, what I do is pump them to keep me stocking and keep pressure on them but unlock them and stop as quick as possible then get firm pressure to where I am doing what is called threshold braking. It's not something you can really get used to because your normally not ready and it's not something I do daily. It's just kind of knowing how your vehicle handles and reacting to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepwayoflife

Funny you say that, its already happened twice...
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:27 PM   #50
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What is "threshold braking"?
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:41 PM   #51
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Funny....I dont think anyone under 30 knows what threshold braking is.

I am required to take a drivers test every three years which includes a threshold breaking field test.

It's the exact point when you brake BEFORE either the ABS kicks in or a non ABS car locks up. It's the shortest possible way to stop a car. If you know how to threshold brake you will stop shorter than ABS can do it or certainly pumping.

Again, every three years I have to get put in a course with a professional driver trainer...go through cones, backing up through a course, and crash avoidance testing.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:03 PM   #52
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Funny....I dont think anyone under 30 knows what threshold braking is.

I am required to take a drivers test every three years which includes a threshold breaking field test.

It's the exact point when you brake BEFORE either the ABS kicks in or a non ABS car locks up. It's the shortest possible way to stop a car. If you know how to threshold brake you will stop shorter than ABS can do it or certainly pumping.

Again, every three years I have to get put in a course with a professional driver trainer...go through cones, backing up through a course, and crash avoidance testing.
Oh. I see. Yeah, I'm 16 so I'm new to this
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:55 PM   #53
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What is "threshold braking"?
Although the explanation above is adequate, the easy way to think of it is there is a spot during a braking event called the threshold or crossover point between rolling tires and locked up skidding tires.

The longer you can keep your brakes at that threshold or right at the verge of lock-up without actually locking them up, the faster you will stop.

It is essentially what ABS does or tries to do. There are sensors at the axle that use a tone ring moving by a hall effect sensor (in general) to generate a signal that the ABS computer senses. When it detects lock-up, it backs off the pressure slightly until it senses movement again, then it pumps pressure into the circuit until lock-up and it does this many times in very quick succession.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:32 PM   #54
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Taking the jeep to a local guy here on Thursday to get the rotors turned, ceramics put on, and have everything regreased etc. Hopefully this fixes everything once and for all. I'll post back the results then.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:56 AM   #55
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Glad the question was asked on threshold braking. The fact that there are teens driving and don't know this concept and have had no training on it is very scary.

No one should be allowed to drive unless they have had crash avoidance training IMO. I do it with my 15 year old daughter. So what if the pads get a little wear. Unless you have experienced a few dozen panic stops, it is hard to know what to expect.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:06 AM   #56
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Glad the question was asked on threshold braking. The fact that there are teens driving and don't know this concept and have had no training on it is very scary.

No one should be allowed to drive unless they have had crash avoidance training IMO. I do it with my 15 year old daughter. So what if the pads get a little wear. Unless you have experienced a few dozen panic stops, it is hard to know what to expect.
It's a very good thing they don't put me in charge of the rules for training to get a driver's license.

They used to have an angled track and sled they toted around to show folks what an impact at speed felt like. Belt you in, raise it up, release the sled and it would speed down the track for 20 or 30 feet and slam into a hard stop to simulate a 10 mph crash.

I'd make it a bit more aggressive to show that hitting the inside of your car in a 30 mph crash is the same as falling face first off a single story roof.

When I got done with that, they would have to drive a slalom and cone course while texting and if they touched a single cone, they get to come back next year and try again.

If they get past both of those, then they get a provisional license good until they turn 18. If they get pulled over for any violation during that time that winds up not dismissed, their license gets yanked until they turn 18 and they can pass the normal tests.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:43 AM   #57
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Years ago I was teaching my daughter the above concepts on a lightly snow covered school parking lot, in a 1987 f-150, three speed with creeper gear,, broad slides, recovery, etc etc,,, wouldn't you just know it,,, some one called the local yocals, and three cops came roaring in, lights and sirens.. You'd a thought it was a disco party.. Once the cops understood what was going on, they congratulated my efforts... BTW, my daughter is now an excellent driver, no wrecks, and only 1 ticket... The hilarity,,,, her drivers Ed teacher was teaching her to ride the brakes while cornering on wet country roads.. I put a quick end to that nonsense..
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:55 AM   #58
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When I was training for my commercial drivers license, we would do a brake test with the 30ft bus. get up to 25-30 mph and slam on the brakes till you come to a stop. It locks up the wheels and the bus starts to slide a bit. Creates a nice cloud of smoke and gives you an idea of what you don't want to do in a big vehicle...
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:03 PM   #59
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IMO ABS is pretty much worthless
The effectiveness of ABS really depends on the system. If it's a basic 2 channel system then yeah, it's is pretty much worthless. Or if it's an older controller and pump that maybe isn't as fast. There are very high end systems, like those Mercedes uses, that will stop the vehicle faster than any human ever could, in any condition. But then again Mercedes did pretty much invent ABS, so they've been doing it a while. Their 4 matic system coupled with ABS is absolutely incredible.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:09 PM   #60
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The effectiveness of ABS really depends on the system. If it's a basic 2 channel system then yeah, it's is pretty much worthless. Or if it's an older controller and pump that maybe isn't as fast. There are very high end systems, like those Mercedes uses, that will stop the vehicle faster than any human ever could, in any condition. But then again Mercedes did pretty much invent ABS, so they've been doing it a while. Their 4 matic system coupled with ABS is absolutely incredible.
I saw a demonstration of that on Top Gear many years ago when one of the top modifiers put a set of the new at the time ceramic rotors on one of the carbon fiber bodied coupes.

They had the old best stopping distance with normal brakes marked out from 100 mph to 0. They cut that distance in half and set up some barriers which were easily avoided when they did the same 100-0 test. It was quite impressive.

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