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Old 07-27-2012, 07:12 PM   #31
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Yep, the weather station on our Mustang Dyne automatically applies the correct correction factor for the ambient conditions. Basically barometric pressure, temperature and relative humidity.

However, you can still have lower numbers in warmer weather due to higher IATs (less dense air), ignition retardation, heatsoaking an intercooler/radiator, etc.

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Old 07-27-2012, 09:12 PM   #32
Knows a couple things...

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...K&N'S don't pass any more dirt than other filters - but some folks don't bother to seal them properly.
You've seen the data here many times so you should know better by now than to claim the K&N doesn't pass more dirt even when "properly sealed".

The K&N filter I ran up until around ten years ago was SCRUPULOUSLY maintained and I soon found the inside of my throttle body and air intake tube gritty from the grime that my K&N passed. I ended up having to place TWO pre-filters over that K&N to get its filtration back up to a reasonable level... this photo shows those two prefilters I added.



Does anyone think I would go to the trouble and expense of adding those two prefilters, pulled back so you can see them, if I hadn't discovered how much dirt my K&N was passing before I could replace it with a better filter?

For those who haven't seen the ISO 5011 lab certified tests of various air filters, the K&N air filter came in dead last in its ability to filter out dirt. Not subjective or annecdotal claims, but results of lab tests conducted to ISO certification standards. As you'll see, when compared to the AC Delco filter that came in 1st place in its filtration ability, the K&N passed 18X as much dirt and captured 37% less dirt in its filtration material when compared to the AC Delco air filter.

The following chart and quotation was copied verbatum from the ISO lab test results...



"In the chart above it’s important to note the different test durations for each filter. The AC Delco filter test ran for 60 minutes before exceeding the restriction limit while the AMSOIL and K&N tests each ran for 20 and 24 minutes respectively before reaching max restriction. In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt.

ISO 5011 Test:
The ISO 5011 Standard (formerly SAE J726) defines a precise filter test using precision measurements under controlled conditions. Temperature & humidity of the test dust and air used in the test are strictly monitored and controlled. As Arlen learned in attempting his own tests, there are many variables that can adversely affect filter test results. A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams. To obtain an accurate measure of filter efficiency, it’s critical to know the EXACT amount of test dust being fed into the filter during the test. By following the ISO 5011 standard, a filter tested in Germany can be compared directly compared to another filter tested 5 years later in Rhode Island. The ISO 5011 filter test data for each filter is contained in two test reports; Capacity-Efficiency and Flow Restriction.

Capacity and Efficiency:
The Capacity and Efficiency test report presents the test results of feeding an initially clean filter with PTI Course Test Dust (dirt) at a constant rate and airflow. The course test dust has a specific distribution of particle sizes ranging from less than 2.5 microns to greater than 80 microns (see table below). Every filter is initially tested at 350 CFM and the Initial Restriction or differential pressure across the filter is recorded in IN-H20 (Inches of Water). The filter is then tested by feeding test dust at a nominal rate of 9.8 grams per minute with a constant airflow of 350 CFM. The test is continued until the flow restriction exceeds the Initial Restriction + 10 IN-H20. At this point the test is terminated and the amount dust passed through the filter - Accumulative Gain - is measured. Dirt passing through the filter is captured in the Test Station’s Post Filter. The exact amount of dirt passed is determined by measuring the before and after weight of the Post Filter. Similarly, the amount of dirt retained by the Filter under test - Accumulative Capacity – is measured by taking the difference between the before and after weights of the Filter. From these results the overall % Efficiency of the filter is calculated. This test also indicates how long a Filter will last before replacement is required (or cleaning for reusable filters)." (end of quote)

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Old 07-27-2012, 09:33 PM   #33
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Holy Crap! That's a whole lotta data! Lol
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:58 PM   #34
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...If the stock airbox flows adequate CFM, a "cold air" intake won't help. ...
I'm going with, "that ain't as black and white as the flock would lead you to believe Alex". A restrictive air filter could provide "adequate CFM" at the cost of parasitic hp being spent on sucking in said "adequate CFM". Anybody that's read about engines has most likely heard the line, "an engine is like an air pump". An engine sucks in air / fuel mixture on a down stroke. That sucking cost some energy.(that would be a PERIOD) The more restrictive the intake track, the more hp that stroke cost. Restriction cost horsepower Captain. YOU can not change the laws of physics. (Really you can't)

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... Also, there's no way around it: a freer flowing air filter means less filtration.
NOW that's thinking outside the box....


....
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:18 PM   #35
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When I hold a K&N air filter up to the light, I see plenty of "pin-holes" of light coming through that I don't see with good "paper" filters or the washable AFE ProDry-S I use. That's all I need to see.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:03 PM   #36
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It's obvious here on this forum "What you're not up on, you're down on!"

Good, finely calibrated Dyno's do work very well and are dependable data for a trained professional. Lets tell NASCAR (or any other professional organization) dyno inspections are BS!

Yes, I'll agree that a TJ is not in the same league as say a Camero or a Mustang, so be logical and don't try to make a TJ what it's not (a speed and black-top racer).
Most Jeeps are modified towards a negative outcome for fuel efficiency So going in that direction you cannot expect much from a single modification.
Lets not forget that 1or 2% gain on just one system component is not readily quantifiable on Low HP and Tq engines and on a computer controlled engine other modifications are required.
A tremendous amount of research on CAI almost always require other complimentary modifications to see an overall gain. Greater intake volume almost always require greater exhaust volume and on computer controlled engines special tuning and fuel trim is a must.

I would like to address those here that like to hang on the belief that "If a modification is that good the manufactures would do it"
There are certain under hood and cabin decibel requirements that all manufactures must abide by for SAE mandates. Factory induction systems have limits as do exhaust systems, Fan noise and even valve cover composition have max decibel requirements. What works best in manufacturing for cost and assembly doesn't mean there's no room for improvements. And last but not least, every automotive manufacture builds their cars and trucks with regard to the "After-market world in mind during any stage in development. Chevrolet, Ford and even Jeep sell greatly on how well the after-market can bring their products to a new level. Ask yourself how performance products are so amazingly available for production even before the first car is off the assembly line.
Yes I realize a jeep is not the same as a muscle car. I was pointing out the price to performance ratio and used that as an example...2whp (questionable) is not worth a $300 CAI. But $90 for 15rwhp is worth it for most people. Also the 4.0 is a speed density setup so it can't compensate for VE changes without a tune...so unless the fatory intake is restrictive beyond the stock tune any gains will be minimal from an intake.

And it's camaro

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Originally Posted by rrich View Post
It's easy enough to try it.
Simply remove the plastic tube to the restrictive stock air filter/silencer box and put a put a filter on the end.
It will get rid of the stock restriction.

Then get remote thermometer - measure the underhood air temp and compare it with outside air. There's very little difference if your fan and cooling system is working properly. MAYBE you'll see a 5 degree difference when moving. At idle it gets warmer, but you don't need or use more power to idle.

Snorkels, cowl induction etc only add restriction - too much ducting.

It's not rocket science, expensive, or difficult to try it ON YOUR OWN VEHICLE.

Internet fools only talk about it but never try it! You don't have to but all the expensive and elaborate stuff to try it!

K&N'S don't pass any more dirt than other filters - but some folks don't bother to seal them properly.

The main complaint is they get dirty too fast - isn't that the purpose of a filter - to catch the dirt?'

Wet filters have proven for years to filter better than wrinkled up paper. They just aren't quite as convenient - they take a little thought.
Do they use paper for kidney dialysis?

5% gain is still 5% gain - no matter how you measure it!

Get some guts - try it on yours! If you dare!

BTW - A properly set up dyno system compensates for air temp and pressure, eliminating the variables. Back to back tests also negate the variables. I used to own 2 shops with chassis dynos, - one was strictly High Performance work. And I've and have spent many hours on engine dynos.
It's common knowledge oiled filters pass a lot more dirt even when properly oiled. It just gets worse as they dry out. That's the sacrifice you make when you want more flow and for some it's worth it. For an off-road vehicle i'd never run an oiled filter.

They don't use paper filters for dialysis because what happens when paper gets wet? Yea...

5% gain isn't 5% gain when the dyno results can vary as much as 5%. Meaning I can run 5 back to back base runs and show a gain or loss as much as 5% each time.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:31 AM   #37
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Jerry - you've posted that ISO chart many many times. If you read the story about how it was obtained and why then you'd understand it. It used DIESEL FILTERS for a truck - only one is still in production - the rest are discontinued! Try to buy them, the filter numbers are on YOUR chart!

And if you read K&N'S rebuttal, you'll find the filter in the test was not the right one - the K&N they used was not an equivalent.
You'll also find the ISO tests are NOT an unbiased government test - that lab had an axe to grind and was a private lab paid to skew the data. ISO is just standards set forth - intended to keep data on the same plane - no enforcement at all.
Read the story behind it - and post it here where everyne can see it.

He He - 5% is not 5%? However you measure 5%, 5% is still 5%.
Somebody needs to go back to 2nd grade and learn what numbers mean.

Jerry - the picture you show of your filter - it's obvious WHY you got dirt in your system. The error is right there in the picture - plain as day! Using those covers and foam completely misses your error - AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN YOUR PICTURE!

The screw clamp - the way those clamps work is they gather the rubber and squeeze it. As you tighten it, it tends to gather the material together in a wrinkle, leaving a gap leaving a gap through the wrinkle.- your leak.

Notice car makers don't use that type of clamp. Notice even OEM radiator hoses and heater hoses don't use those clamps. They use the type that applies pressure all around the connection - AND DOES NOT DISTORT THE HOSE - yes, they are a PITA to use, but they seal much better. They don't need to be so tight the rubber distorts.
Screw type clamps often get tightened so much to stop a leak they either break or cut the hose. i'm sure you've done it before. Unfortunately K&N provides that screw clamp with their filters. It's partially their fault they've gotten a bad rep. But the installer should have some sense too.

Thanks for providing visual proof as to why yours didn't seal properly. It wasn't the filter, it was how you put it on!

Notice too the boot on the K&N fits loose - making the gathering wrinkle even more pronounced.

If you read my old previous posts about sealing it properly you'll find I addressed that problem before - and suggested the use of the constant pressure type clamps, PLUS wrapping tape around the connection over the clamp to make sure there was no leak.

But then, data can easily be skewed to create whatever impression is wanted.

For example - look at the unemployment data touted by the government. Most everyone has a good job and makes so much money they need their taxes raised.
Of course nobody will ever believe otherwise - it must be true - the government data proves it!. Everyone on here makes too much money.
I know there won't be any disagreement.

LOL """""It's common knowledge oiled filters pass a lot more dirt even when properly oiled. It just gets worse as they dry out"""""
Common knowledge? It's also common knowledge your taxes need to be raised - see above.

When and where have you seen oil dry out?

The dirt sticks to the oiled material, then the dirt itself gets wet with the oil and helps trap more dirt! The dirtier it gets, the better it filters - to a point of course. Wrinkled paper does not work that way, it just plugs up.

LOL - Common knowledge!
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Old 07-28-2012, 08:58 AM   #38
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On the filters, has anyone tested these themselves?
I hooked up a few air filters I was considering using, since marketing hype is mostly all the info you can get, to an air box with a shop vac. Under the filter element I put white, oiled rags and fed a measured amount of dry dust through the filters, remixed each time for even consistency, and you could really see the difference in different makes. I did not test K&N as I don't use them. I figured my little experiment was the least I could do for my engine.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Jerry - you've posted that ISO chart many many times. If you read the story about how it was obtained and why then you'd understand it. It used DIESEL FILTERS for a truck - only one is still in production - the rest are discontinued! Try to buy them, the filter numbers are on YOUR chart!

And if you read K&N'S rebuttal, you'll find the filter in the test was not the right one - the K&N they used was not an equivalent.
You'll also find the ISO tests are NOT an unbiased government test - that lab had an axe to grind and was a private lab paid to skew the data. ISO is just standards set forth - intended to keep data on the same plane - no enforcement at all.
Read the story behind it - and post it here where everyne can see it.

He He - 5% is not 5%? However you measure 5%, 5% is still 5%.
Somebody needs to go back to 2nd grade and learn what numbers mean.

Jerry - the picture you show of your filter - it's obvious WHY you got dirt in your system. The error is right there in the picture - plain as day! Using those covers and foam completely misses your error - AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN YOUR PICTURE!

The screw clamp - the way those clamps work is they gather the rubber and squeeze it. As you tighten it, it tends to gather the material together in a wrinkle, leaving a gap leaving a gap through the wrinkle.- your leak.

Notice car makers don't use that type of clamp. Notice even OEM radiator hoses and heater hoses don't use those clamps. They use the type that applies pressure all around the connection - AND DOES NOT DISTORT THE HOSE - yes, they are a PITA to use, but they seal much better. They don't need to be so tight the rubber distorts.
Screw type clamps often get tightened so much to stop a leak they either break or cut the hose. i'm sure you've done it before. Unfortunately K&N provides that screw clamp with their filters. It's partially their fault they've gotten a bad rep. But the installer should have some sense too.

Thanks for providing visual proof as to why yours didn't seal properly. It wasn't the filter, it was how you put it on!

Notice too the boot on the K&N fits loose - making the gathering wrinkle even more pronounced.

If you read my old previous posts about sealing it properly you'll find I addressed that problem before - and suggested the use of the constant pressure type clamps, PLUS wrapping tape around the connection over the clamp to make sure there was no leak.

But then, data can easily be skewed to create whatever impression is wanted.

For example - look at the unemployment data touted by the government. Most everyone has a good job and makes so much money they need their taxes raised.
Of course nobody will ever believe otherwise - it must be true - the government data proves it!. Everyone on here makes too much money.
I know there won't be any disagreement.

LOL """""It's common knowledge oiled filters pass a lot more dirt even when properly oiled. It just gets worse as they dry out"""""
Common knowledge? It's also common knowledge your taxes need to be raised - see above.

When and where have you seen oil dry out?

The dirt sticks to the oiled material, then the dirt itself gets wet with the oil and helps trap more dirt! The dirtier it gets, the better it filters - to a point of course. Wrinkled paper does not work that way, it just plugs up.

LOL - Common knowledge!
I didn't expect you to understand the variable 5% thing since your reading comprehension needs some work.

And yes common knowledge...meaning it's a known fact amongst gearheads which you apparently lack. Here's a real world filtration test of drop-in filters using the factory intake...so there goes your "it's not sealed properly" theory.

Filtration Testing for Amsoil, K&N, Napa, Jackson Racing, Baldwin, and Mazda air filters on a Miata

Yes the oil dries out and since the only thing trapping the smaller particles of dirt is the oil on the cotton gauze the filtration continues to get worse until it's cleaned/reoiled. When and where have I seen oil dry out? Ummm...on every oiled filter/CAI i've owned.

I can't say i'm surprised you OWNED two performance shops...I wouldn't take my car to you either. Yea I know it's the economy right? Seems like you spent more time in the office than turning wrenches.
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:10 PM   #40
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so are there any modifications that can be done to the stock box to make it run more efficently? not that im that eager to change what i know works
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:54 PM   #41
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Common knowledge -- you can find most anything on the internet if you look hard enough.
I'm sure you can even find screw type clamps are better and don't need to be tightened. And cocaine is good for you! -- COMMON KNOWLEDGE! ? Maybe among those that don't know.

The oil doesn't dry out, but the trapped dirt absorbs some of it. The oily dirt becomes part of the filter media. The dirtier it gets the better it filters. It looks like it dried out, but it really didn't - it just spread the oil around over more trapping surfaces.
An occasional extra shot of oil keeps it wetter.

Try something - if you really want to know - spray some of the oil on a piece of metal - something non absorbent - leave it in the sun for days/weeks - it does not evaporate!

You wouldn't bring your car to my shop - with your "I already know everything" attitude you'd have been asked/told to leave.

The proof - was dyno reports and the customer's butt test. If a customer did not feel we improved things there was no charge - in writing up front!
Yes, there were a few customers that challenged me - I never charged them. But over half of them came back a few days later and said they were mistaken - and paid me! Of course some just didn't want to pay - scammers.

My prices ranged from $200 for a small improvement with little modification to over $600 for recurving distributors and rejettng carbs. All with before and after reports.

But believe whatever you want - if you don't think there's a better filter than wrinkled up paper, then use it!
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Old 07-28-2012, 02:00 PM   #42
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I put an aftermarket intake on my 03 tj. It's not cold air intake and I don't know the make because a friend gave it to me. I didn't get the whole system, just a red cone shaped intake. My throttle is a little more powerful. But most of the power is noticeable in 1st and 2nd gear. After that I only get noticeable power gains in Rpm higher than 3500. But the throttle response is much better. No mpg gains really, but it sounds a little better too. Overall id get it but only for a good price. If your wheeling your jeep, The stock box is ideal for keeping water/mud/sand out of your engine because there is only that one tube of air passage at the top. Think about this, Jeep designed the vehicle to work a certain way. Sure you might be able to make it a little better. But jeep isn't going to sell a vehicle that isn't going to work. These inline 6 engines are some of the most dependable gas engines made. So completely stock engine is a good ring to have.
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Old 07-28-2012, 02:14 PM   #43
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""""so are there any modifications that can be done to the stock box to make it run more efficiently?"""""

Sure - get rid of the tiny little horn on the front - let the fresh air in!
And replace the tubes to it - from the box to the TB with bigger tubes with gentle smooth bends - no krinkles! Get creative - PVC tube fits fine and comes in many sizes and configurations - and is cheap.

Get rid of the restrictions that impede airflow - let it breathe!

It will be a little noisier, but you don't have to comply with new car Federal noise standards.
Part of that airboxe's duty is to clean the incoming air, and part is to silence the noise. It serves dual purposes.
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Old 07-28-2012, 02:24 PM   #44
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"""""But jeep isn't going to sell a vehicle that isn't going to work. """""

Of course not!

But they have to comply with tons of legislation, emissions, noise limits, and safety requirements too.
Plus it has to start and run properly in super cold - like the North Slope, and the heat of the Arabian deserts. It has a ton of compromises. It's amazing it can run at all!
If you are using it in more temperate environments, there are still things you can do to get better performance.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:07 PM   #45
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Turbo and superchargers increase the volume of air/fuel, effectively giving the engine a larger displacement. The amount of air a naturally aspirated engine uses is determined by bore x stroke. Nothing short of pressurizing the incoming air/fuel will increase that. If the stock airbox flows adequate CFM, a "cold air" intake won't help. Also, there's no way around it: a freer flowing air filter means less filtration.
i agree with the first part, but not with your last statement that a freer flowing filter only means less filtration. I think it comes down to the surface area of the filter (say you add a larger filter somehow, the air can come in through more places and therefor create a larger volume while keeping the same filtration rate). So if K&N or any other company can create more surface area, they could increase volume i'd assume. i just picked up a K&N flat panel filter. Right away you can see that it has at least a couple dozen folds, while the stock one only has a handful. i think this is how they are increasing the amount of air that goes through, not by filtering it less, which is silly and this is the first forum i've ever read this on

after about 300km driving with the filter, i can see that my gas consumption has dropped by about 0.3L/100km. minor improvement of course, it's nothing to brag about, but whatever, it adds up over the life of the car, and it's not like you dont have to have a filter to begin with
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:15 PM   #46
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i agree with the first part, but not with your last statement that a freer flowing filter only means less filtration. I think it comes down to the surface area of the filter (say you add a larger filter somehow, the air can come in through more places and therefor create a larger volume while keeping the same filtration rate). So if K&N or any other company can create more surface area, they could increase volume i'd assume. i just picked up a K&N flat panel filter. Right away you can see that it has at least a couple dozen folds, while the stock one only has a handful. i think this is how they are increasing the amount of air that goes through, not by filtering it less, which is silly and this is the first forum i've ever read this on

after about 300km driving with the filter, i can see that my gas consumption has dropped by about 0.3L/100km. minor improvement of course, it's nothing to brag about, but whatever, it adds up over the life of the car, and it's not like you dont have to have a filter to begin with

You're absolutely right. I wasn't taking surface area into account.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:35 AM   #47
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All dyno discussion aside, you should be able to detect any significant power gains, if there are any, by averaging a number of quarter mile runs (or maybe more relevent--50 to 70 mph times) before and after...taking into consideration outdoor temperature, tire pressure, fuel octane, etc. being all the same.
Problem with some of these systems is that the filter they give you is not so good at catching fine dust. I would rather put two, known good, filters side by side for double the surface area in that regard, if there were room to do it. The filter itself is usually the least restrictive part of all the air inlet piping though and makes no tellable difference in power, in my experience.
I don't think 0-60 is a terribly good measure of useful power/acceleration because there are too many variables on gearing and shift points on different vehicles that affect the final times during that short acceleration run that don't necessarily reflect well on useful passing or merging power on the highway, or low-end power in the mud.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:06 AM   #48
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i i just picked up a K&N flat panel filter. Right away you can see that it has at least a couple dozen folds, while the stock one only has a handful.
You REALLY need to go back and recount those folds between a K&N (which I have owned both the OE flat and cone filter styles) and an OE style replacement filter like from AC Delco, Purolator, Fram, etc. because you will see there are probably 2-3X as many pleats in the others than there are in any K&N. There is FAR more surface area in any of those OE replacement air filters than there is in the K&N... which is very easily seen by a simple comparison.

Use Google to search for pictures of said filters and you'll easily see what I am talking about if you don't want to go to the parts store.

In terms of raw surface area, the K&N filter simply does not have as much flat surface area, period. The K&N can flow more air simply because it is far more pourous which lets in more dirt. Plain and simple, that much has been proven in the above certified lab tests.

However, the OE style air intake filter using OE style replacement filters like from AC Delco or Purolator can still VERY easily flow far more air than the engine is capable of asking for. That is a flat out fact. The factory specifically designed the OE air intake to be non-restrictive and it is... even at WOT (wide open throttle) and redline RPMs.

Not even the trumpet is there to restrict air, it's sole purpose is to speed up the air flow through the air intake which serves two purposes... 1) to quiet the air flow by speeding it up above the speed of sound (yes) and 2) to help improve combustion efficiciency by speeding the air into the combustion chambers which helps the combustion process. Even with the trumpet the OE air intake system easily flows more air than the engine can possible ask for or consume. Offering it more air than a conventionally aspirated (non-turbo or supercharged) engine needs is useless... like placing a large diameter funnel placed into your mouth with the hopes it will make you run faster by helping you breathe more air... it ain't gonna happen.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford
You REALLY need to go back and recount those folds between a K&N (which I have owned both the OE flat and cone filter styles) and an OE style replacement filter like from AC Delco, Purolator, Fram, etc. because you will see there are probably 2-3X as many pleats in the others than there are in any K&N. There is FAR more surface area in any of those OE replacement air filters than there is in the K&N... which is very easily seen by a simple comparison.

Use Google to search for pictures of said filters and you'll easily see what I am talking about if you don't want to go to the parts store.

In terms of raw surface area, the K&N filter simply does not have as much flat surface area, period. The K&N can flow more air simply because it is far more pourous which lets in more dirt. Plain and simple, that much has been proven in the above certified lab tests.

However, the OE style air intake filter using OE style replacement filters like from AC Delco or Purolator can still VERY easily flow far more air than the engine is capable of asking for. That is a flat out fact. The factory specifically designed the OE air intake to be non-restrictive and it is... even at WOT (wide open throttle) and redline RPMs.

Not even the trumpet is there to restrict air, it's sole purpose is to speed up the air flow through the air intake which serves two purposes... 1) to quiet the air flow by speeding it up above the speed of sound (yes) and 2) to help improve combustion efficiciency by speeding the air into the combustion chambers which helps the combustion process. Even with the trumpet the OE air intake system easily flows more air than the engine can possible ask for or consume. Offering it more air than a conventionally aspirated (non-turbo or supercharged) engine needs is useless... like placing a large diameter funnel placed into your mouth with the hopes it will make you run faster by helping you breathe more air... it ain't gonna happen.
Jerry,
Please save this post and use it when anyone asks about a cold air intake, it just saved me a whole lot of typing! Excellent and informative post. Someone is going to try that mouth funnel trick you know!
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #50
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Jerry, slightly off topic, but what do you think about us guys with early TJ's swapping our intakes with the newer design? Some people claim a performance gain. Same with swapping the injectors. Any truth to that?
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Old 08-04-2012, 01:02 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford
You REALLY need to go back and recount those folds between a K&N (which I have owned both the OE flat and cone filter styles) and an OE style replacement filter like from AC Delco, Purolator, Fram, etc. because you will see there are probably 2-3X as many pleats in the others than there are in any K&N. There is FAR more surface area in any of those OE replacement air filters than there is in the K&N... which is very easily seen by a simple comparison.

Use Google to search for pictures of said filters and you'll easily see what I am talking about if you don't want to go to the parts store.

In terms of raw surface area, the K&N filter simply does not have as much flat surface area, period. The K&N can flow more air simply because it is far more pourous which lets in more dirt. Plain and simple, that much has been proven in the above certified lab tests.

However, the OE style air intake filter using OE style replacement filters like from AC Delco or Purolator can still VERY easily flow far more air than the engine is capable of asking for. That is a flat out fact. The factory specifically designed the OE air intake to be non-restrictive and it is... even at WOT (wide open throttle) and redline RPMs.

Not even the trumpet is there to restrict air, it's sole purpose is to speed up the air flow through the air intake which serves two purposes... 1) to quiet the air flow by speeding it up above the speed of sound (yes) and 2) to help improve combustion efficiciency by speeding the air into the combustion chambers which helps the combustion process. Even with the trumpet the OE air intake system easily flows more air than the engine can possible ask for or consume. Offering it more air than a conventionally aspirated (non-turbo or supercharged) engine needs is useless... like placing a large diameter funnel placed into your mouth with the hopes it will make you run faster by helping you breathe more air... it ain't gonna happen.
You REALLY should focus on what I wrote, not on what you THINK I wrote! I was comparing k&n vs stock, not arguing over which filter is best or saying there arent other similar alternatives! The stock filter, has almost no folds at all, and that's what I was comparing against. There could be a million filters, i could care less which one gives slightly more cfm, I'm only comparing the two i mentioned!

And what exactly is your point? So what if other filters have even more folds, all of them probably give sligly better flow than stock, and all of them probably do that for the same reason, more surfacearea. I have no idea why you are rambling on about the rest of the intake system and about how much air the engine can take.

Also, i'm guessing you've never seen a NA built car, coz acording to you, there's nothing you can do to an NA engine. Imagine that, a car company that puts out a motor that is already pushed to the max and there is NOTHING you can do to improve it... Not even ferrari or lambo do that, even they have to pass emissions, so imagining that JEEP would do that is childish. THERE IS NO ENGINE THAT BREATHES PERFECTLY FROM THE FACTORY, PERIOD.
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Old 08-04-2012, 01:32 PM   #52
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Also, i'm guessing you've never seen a NA built car, coz acording to you, there's nothing you can do to an NA engine. Imagine that, a car company that puts out a motor that is already pushed to the max and there is NOTHING you can do to improve it... Not even ferrari or lambo do that, even they have to pass emissions, so imagining that JEEP would do that is childish. THERE IS NO ENGINE THAT BREATHES PERFECTLY FROM THE FACTORY, PERIOD.
That's not what he's saying. He said the stock intake on the 4.0 flows more than enough for the stock engine which is true in this application. The engine will only draw in the air it needs unless it's forced in using forced induction. On a NA build you need more displacement, a bigger cam with more lift/duration and headwork...or any combo of those for the engine to require more air.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:09 PM   #53
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The funnel in the mouth trick - try that with the stock funnel.
Your body needs far less air than a 4.0.

You will easily see how restrictive it is.

Remember - he falls for the internet and advertising hype - he loves Fram oil filters when they have been proven many times to be inferior.


But do what you want - it's your rig.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #54
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:37 PM   #55
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:06 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
The funnel in the mouth trick - try that with the stock funnel.
Your body needs far less air than a 4.0.

You will easily see how restrictive it is.

Remember - he falls for the internet and advertising hype - he loves Fram oil filters when they have been proven many times to be inferior.


But do what you want - it's your rig.
The stock horn was only worth ~1hp on my testing.
Remember that many people on this forum are here to sell parts, or do write ups for free or discounted parts. It may not be that they are falling for internet and advertising hype.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:19 PM   #57
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But do what you want - it's your rig.
I'll jump in this clusterfark. I did do what I wanted on my rig.

I installed a so called "cold air intake". It kept getting clogged with dirt and road debris (leaves, bits of wrappers and other trash you find on the road) every 2k miles or less. It let dust past the filter and into the intake tube. The throttle body clogged with carbon and oil build up (from the filter), and the intake manifold was black inside. As a result, the gas mileage went down and the jeep idled at about 1000-1200 rpms, and rough at that. I took the CAI intake off and sold it to some sucker on craigslist, even though I told him the problems I saw.

I went back to stock with a paper filter and cleaned the throttle body and intake. No more build up, no more dust, no more junk since....and that's been many years and many tens of thousands of miles ago.

I've also used an OBDII scanner to monitor air intake temperatures for several years in varied weather and varied driving conditions, throughout this whole process. I've seen the lowest IAT's using the stock box with a Ford Windstar fender horn shoved in place of the stock Jeep horn, which draws air from behind the headlight. And those IAT's average twice ambient, with a minimum of about 80°F in winter with lower than freezing temps. on the highway they'll drop to about 1.5x ambient if you're going over 70mph with lots of throttle input (mileage sucks here tho). I've also seen 240°F intake temps with so called "cold air intakes"...how is that cold air when a stock box in the same circumstance is pulling half that temp?

If you're not sucking air from outside the engine compartment...like the cowl...you're not going to see anywhere near ambient temps at the intake manifold.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:24 PM   #58
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UnlimitedLJ04; So I have a PO installed "hot air intake" a washable cone. Says Spectre or something like that on it, and draws right from the middle of the engine compartment because it is zip-tied to the passenger side hood support bar. I'd like to be rid of it, but don't know where to get the OEM or OEM style parts. If I go to a stealership, they'll want hundred$ for all that plastic.
Any suggestions?
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:36 PM   #59
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UnlimitedLJ04; So I have a PO installed "hot air intake" a washable cone. Says Spectre or something like that on it, and draws right from the middle of the engine compartment because it is zip-tied to the passenger side hood support bar. I'd like to be rid of it, but don't know where to get the OEM or OEM style parts. If I go to a stealership, they'll want hundred$ for all that plastic.
Any suggestions?
craigslist, ebay, forums, junkyards are where to start. There are also plenty of good write-ups on JeepForum on cowl intakes and even engine compartment intakes using Buick, F150 or Windstar airbox's. Check the CAI FAQ over on JF. If positioned well, these can work well too.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:47 PM   #60
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OK thanks.
I've never found a part I was after at a junkyard (not ever even with their national computer network) so that's not an option for me.
I don't even look there anymore.

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