Cryogenic parts - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > TJ Jeep Wrangler Forum > TJ General Discussion Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 05-11-2007, 03:58 PM   #1
Jeeper
 
Mike001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you.....
Posts: 678
Cryogenic parts

Have ya'll heard about havin your axles and gears and what not cryo-dipped in liquid nitrogen? Do ya'll think it iw worth it to have that done to D30/35 superkits and rebuilding the axles? Can you just stick them in liquid nitrogen yourself? Anyone know and if you get a Superior Super 35 kit with an ARB locker does it eliminate the C-Clip.

__________________
"They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can’t get away from us now!"
Mike001 is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:06 PM   #2
Extremely Humble

WF Lifetime Member
 
Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Midland Texas
Posts: 11,549
Images: 12
You lost me on this one.

__________________

|
|

03 Rubicon | 36" Iroks | Chromo D44's w/Rear Spool | 5.5" RK LA | 5.13s | Armored Head to Toe
Scout is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:11 PM   #3
Fields of pain is where I graze
 
activelydying's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Galt's Gaulch
Posts: 3,325
unfortunately, i'm with scout.
__________________
" Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." Bukowski
activelydying is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:18 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
upinar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: miami, Florida
Posts: 489
never heard of it, but if you do it. Im sure many of us would like to know what it is
__________________
boosted inline 6 50. trim turbo
40" super swamper boggers
high pinion d44 front trussed
ford 8.8 rear axle conversion
se 9500 milemarker winch
locked front and rear
rough country steering stabilizers
clayton long arm
3inch body lift
2 coil spacer lift
eagle alloys 15's
on-board air system
kc daylighters 100w long range
rocker guards
rhino liner
upinar is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:32 PM   #5
Pushy, Loudmouthed, and Ballsy
 
Dare2BSquare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Driving Around Arkansas In My Black XJ
Posts: 6,177
Hey, I say go for it. You'll probably at least get a "sticky" for it if you take pictures!!!
__________________
99 XJ Sport
4.0l
AW4
NP231
d30/C8.25
3" Skyjacker lift
31 x 10.50 General Grabbers


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...are/TMLogo.gif Are all fishermen liars, or do only liars fish?
Dare2BSquare is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:52 PM   #6
I got nothin'

WF Lifetime Member
 
jeeperman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike001 View Post
Have ya'll heard about havin your axles and gears and what not cryo-dipped in liquid nitrogen? Do ya'll think it iw worth it to have that done to D30/35 superkits and rebuilding the axles? Can you just stick them in liquid nitrogen yourself? Anyone know and if you get a Superior Super 35 kit with an ARB locker does it eliminate the C-Clip.
I have heard the the extreme cold realigns the steel molecules and creates stronger parts. I do not have any experience with it, but have heard/read that it does actually work. I do not know what the process is, or if you can dip them yourself.

Don't know about the C-clip/ARB question, I got nothin'...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
I like "prick".

Go ahead...quote me on that.
"Hold my beer while I kiss your girlfriend... you have to be good for something"

--Aaron Pritchett

If you have to ask what it is or what it does, you don't need it, and you will need help to install it!
jeeperman is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:53 PM   #7
Extremely Humble

WF Lifetime Member
 
Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Midland Texas
Posts: 11,549
Images: 12
How readily available IS liquid nitrogen anyway????
__________________

|
|

03 Rubicon | 36" Iroks | Chromo D44's w/Rear Spool | 5.5" RK LA | 5.13s | Armored Head to Toe
Scout is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 04:59 PM   #8
Pushy, Loudmouthed, and Ballsy
 
Dare2BSquare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Driving Around Arkansas In My Black XJ
Posts: 6,177
I think I got a can in my garage somewhere.
__________________
99 XJ Sport
4.0l
AW4
NP231
d30/C8.25
3" Skyjacker lift
31 x 10.50 General Grabbers


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...are/TMLogo.gif Are all fishermen liars, or do only liars fish?
Dare2BSquare is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 05:05 PM   #9
Knows a couple things...

WF Supporting Member
 
Jerry Bransford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Escondido, Calif.
Posts: 34,792
Images: 2
Yep it really works by aligning the structure in a more cohesive pattern. I believe it adds somewhere around 30% strength to the part IIRC. There's not much to the process from what I have read but you'd sure need a large volume of liquid nitrogen to dip your axles to have enough cooling capacity to treat them as long as is required.

It's being done to all kinds of drivetrain parts for the guys with the money, heck there's even a shop 20 miles from me doing it now.

But no, a Super 35 kit does not eliminate the c-clip. However, it's not the c-clip itself that is the wink link in the Dana 35c, it's primarily the axleshaft itself and to a much lesser extent, the housing together with the R&P gears. But installing a Super 35 kit does give the strength to reliably run 35" tires and a locker for 99% of us, at least those of us not crazy with the stupid-pedal. It's not the c-clip that breaks, it's the axleshaft between the wheel and the carrier that usually breaks, leaving the part with the c-clip intact behind the splines of the carrier.
__________________
...Gone wheeling, back Sunday night.

When you have a choice, buy American.

Jerry Bransford is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 05:17 PM   #10
Extremely Humble

WF Lifetime Member
 
Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Midland Texas
Posts: 11,549
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Yep it really works by aligning the structure in a more cohesive pattern. I believe it adds somewhere around 30% strength to the part IIRC. There's not much to the process from what I have read but you'd sure need a large volume of liquid nitrogen to dip your axles to have enough cooling capacity to treat them as long as is required.

It's being done to all kinds of drivetrain parts for the guys with the money, heck there's even a shop 20 miles from me doing it now.

But no, a Super 35 kit does not eliminate the c-clip. However, it's not the c-clip itself that is the wink link in the Dana 35c, it's primarily the axleshaft itself and to a much lesser extent, the housing together with the R&P gears. But installing a Super 35 kit does give the strength to reliably run 35" tires and a locker for 99% of us, at least those of us not crazy with the stupid-pedal. It's not the c-clip that breaks, it's the axleshaft between the wheel and the carrier that usually breaks, leaving the part with the c-clip intact behind the splines of the carrier.
Learn something new everyday. Screw my "Let's talk axles" thread. I'm getting me some of that liquid nitrogen!
__________________

|
|

03 Rubicon | 36" Iroks | Chromo D44's w/Rear Spool | 5.5" RK LA | 5.13s | Armored Head to Toe
Scout is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 05:37 PM   #11
Drives by Braille

WF Supporting Member
 
AzTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: For-8-Oh!
Posts: 13,631
Cryo-treating stuff usually isn't very cost effective though... what I've seen it used on mainly are high performance transmissions, drag cars and race cars and the likes. As for axles and what not I donno if it would be much help. Scout- I think upgrading your axles would be a better investment than just a cryo-treatment.
AzTJ is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 05:48 PM   #12
Jeeper
 
Mike001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you.....
Posts: 678
I've read about it and know what it does just wondering if anyone has done it. I'm sure I can get my hands on some liquid nitrogen though.
__________________
"They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can’t get away from us now!"
Mike001 is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 06:19 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
FTNuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 112
Cryo-tempering

My stepdad is an old-school drag racer and all around gear head and he is always trying to convince me that this is the way to go for strengthening axles. He actually claims you can get a very respectable strength gain just by using dry ice if liquid nitrogen isn't readily available to you.
Based on all the metallurgical studying I have done (regarding sword blades) what I believe is occuring in this process is that any portions of austenitic steel (basically annealed) is being converted into martenisitic steel, making the overall axle stronger and harder, with a more uniform grain. The argument in the sword world is that this is unnecessary since there is hardly any retained austenite in a properly tempered blade anyway so it is of little benefit. However, our axles are not likely put through nearly the controlled tempering process that 5000 dollar swords are, so it is quite likely that there should be a substantial amount of austenitic to martensitic coversion.
I'm sure I'm a little off on some of my science here, its been a long time since I've looked at this stuff, but the bottom line is that cryo-tempering probably can't HURT your axles, so you might as well go for it if you have easy access to Liquid Nitrogen or even just a bunch of dry ice and a decent sized cooler.
__________________
"Corn chips are no place for a mighty warrior!"
FTNuke is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 08:35 PM   #14
Jeeper
 
kg4kpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Summerville, SC
Posts: 2,772
Send a message via Yahoo to kg4kpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike001 View Post
I've read about it and know what it does just wondering if anyone has done it. I'm sure I can get my hands on some liquid nitrogen though.
I think you can get it at the same places you get oxygen, acetylene or any other gases. I got a guy who offered me two shop size nitrigen bottles (empty) if I just take them away. I can't use them. Isn't it used in race care tires as well? Doesn't expand like air when the temp on the track changes.
__________________
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/kg4kpg/f712f48bae526a2b13f30e6601f3433d_zps089056bf.jpg
kg4kpg is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 08:57 PM   #15
Knows a couple things...

WF Supporting Member
 
Jerry Bransford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Escondido, Calif.
Posts: 34,792
Images: 2
Doesn't handling liquid nitrogen involve special procedures and knowledge? I'd sure be careful in going about this.
__________________
...Gone wheeling, back Sunday night.

When you have a choice, buy American.

Jerry Bransford is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 09:22 PM   #16
Jeeper
 
kg4kpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Summerville, SC
Posts: 2,772
Send a message via Yahoo to kg4kpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Doesn't handling liquid nitrogen involve special procedures and knowledge? I'd sure be careful in going about this.
I guess I'm thinking of it in its gas form. Maybe go get a mole froze off and ask the doc for a bottle to take home.
__________________
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e96/kg4kpg/f712f48bae526a2b13f30e6601f3433d_zps089056bf.jpg
kg4kpg is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 09:41 PM   #17
MoA
Jeeper
 
MoA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: kokomo indiana
Posts: 2,927
Quote:
Originally Posted by kg4kpg View Post
I guess I'm thinking of it in its gas form. Maybe go get a mole froze off and ask the doc for a bottle to take home.
+ a couple of thousand refills =p
__________________
99 sahara :: 2'' coils (front), jks acos f&r, jks front trackbar, jks bl/mml, RE monotube shocks, hp30/d44, 33'' procomp mts, 15x8 eagle alloy 187s, hella optilux fogs, raingler nets, & more random junk::

06 charger r/t :: 5.7l hemi w/ flipstick, tinted windows, leather heated seats, 2 kenwood 12s =D my new baby ::
MoA is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 10:08 PM   #18
Jeeper
 
RedRubiTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chino Hills
Posts: 514
I deal with liquid N2 quite often. It is available from gas suppliers and comes in a very large dewer (similar to a cylinder but made to hold liquid not gas). I am not sure if there are special requirements for purchasing it or the price since all the labs I deal with have no issues.

The two main dangers with liquid N2 are asphyxiation and cold. 100% N2 will replace the "air" in the room. Use it in a very well ventillated location. Liquid N2 is at -195 deg C (-320 deg F) so the cold can be problematic. If you take it and put it in a non-insulated container, the container will quickly reach the same temperature as the N2 which makes it hard to handle. Insulated plastics do not work well as they loose all their elasticity at these temperatures which makes them very brittle and weak. In labs they use special glass lined thermos and dewers. The less insulated the N2 is, the faster it is going to boil off (you do not want to cap it as that will raise the pressure causing an explosion). I would think cryo treating smaller parts could be dooable but I would hate to see the expense in doing an axle shaft with a "home brew" system where it was actually effective.
__________________
'06 Rubicon - Mostly Stock
RedRubiTJ is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 10:24 PM   #19
Jeeper
 
Mike001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you.....
Posts: 678
So what kind of insulated container would be effective? I know you have to be real careful with it, and it would likely be done in a shop at a friends. THe article I read about it is in the May 07 issue of FourWheeler on pg 80.
__________________
"They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can’t get away from us now!"
Mike001 is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 11:15 PM   #20
Jeeper
 
RedRubiTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chino Hills
Posts: 514
That's a hard question to answer. Like I said, labs use special glass lined thermos or dewers. That's the best, but it has to be a glass that can handle < 320 deg F. A cooler "might" work if you were very gentle but you can pretty much guarantee it would be toast afterwards. An old metal in and out ice chest would probably be your best bet if you could get your hands on one. Just don't touch it until it has warmed up again.

Use well insulated gloves or mits while handling the N2 and use insualted tongs to handle the parts.

After looking into this process, I am not sure it is dooable without special equipment.

First off, effective cryotempering takes 48 hours. First about 9 hrs to cool the part, then 30 hrs at -310 then 9 hrs to return to room temperature. The gain in strength is about 300% for high carbon/chromium steel. If I were considering doing this I would probably just pay to have it done as that is going to take alot of N2 and constant monitoring to avoid thermal shock and "weaken" the part. It seems most of the strength gain is in abrasion, shock and wear and not so much in tensile strength

I've know chemists who have used liq N2 to make ice cream and all kinds of other fun experiments.
__________________
'06 Rubicon - Mostly Stock
RedRubiTJ is offline   Quote
Old 05-11-2007, 11:49 PM   #21
Jeeper
 
Mike001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you.....
Posts: 678
So would it be worth the money for D30/35 ring and pinions to be down? In your opinion?
__________________
"They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can’t get away from us now!"
Mike001 is offline   Quote
Old 05-12-2007, 12:05 AM   #22
Jeeper
 
RedRubiTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chino Hills
Posts: 514
IDK, how much does it run and what are you trying to achieve? It appears to only work on chromo/carbon steel so you would have to start with alloy axles to begin with. I am not expert on this by any means, I am just going by what I have picked up on the net since you first mentioned it. It may just be another case of polishing a turd .
__________________
'06 Rubicon - Mostly Stock
RedRubiTJ is offline   Quote
Old 05-12-2007, 07:30 PM   #23
Wrecktrician
 
4point's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Central Sierra
Posts: 7,351
There are companies that will cryo most anything. There got to be someone in Socal. My daughters softball was cryo'd it supposedly gave the ball more pop. This was fairly common in softball and you could send in any bat to have it done. I been away from it too long to remember the companies that do it.

Rob
__________________
Just getting to work is an adventure.
4point is offline   Quote
Old 05-12-2007, 08:10 PM   #24
Knows a couple things...

WF Supporting Member
 
Jerry Bransford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Escondido, Calif.
Posts: 34,792
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike001 View Post
So would it be worth the money for D30/35 ring and pinions to be down? In your opinion?
Since they're not the weak link in those two axles, I wouldn't go to the trouble of doing just them.
__________________
...Gone wheeling, back Sunday night.

When you have a choice, buy American.

Jerry Bransford is offline   Quote
Old 05-14-2007, 08:23 AM   #25
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 8,286
Send a message via AIM to Triple88a Send a message via MSN to Triple88a Send a message via Yahoo to Triple88a Send a message via Skype™ to Triple88a
You can go the other way and have them heat treaded? Many places do that stuff.. the company we use at work is FPM (logo is red letters on black background) What hardness are the stock ones heated to?

Triple88a is offline   Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TJ parts...... Lizzy_in_a_Jeep Classifieds Archive 7 12-20-2009 06:42 PM
Need TJ Parts? (TX) dweebster Classifieds Archive 12 10-02-2008 08:41 PM
All parts added to my TJ USBrit TJ General Discussion Forum 7 03-31-2008 08:08 PM
Which TJ Part(s) for 300$ ? nicolas-eric TJ General Discussion Forum 31 03-22-2008 12:49 PM



Download our Mobile App

» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 AM.



Jeep, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC