Okay guys, I need someone to point me in the right direction.
I have a 2002 Jeep Wrangler Sport with the 4.0 liter 6 cylinder, auto trans, 4" lift, and 33" tires. I am relatively new to Jeeps, but am hearing much about the weakness of the factory Dana 30 front and Dana 35 rear combo. My Wrangler is mostly confined to light mud/sand duty with light hill climbing and such when I am lucky enough to go home.
I do not rock climb, nor do I jump the Jeep and such as that; I live in south Georgia, and the terrain is mostly flat here. Should I be worried about my setup? What should I be looking at as far as damage goes? I have read about differential trusses and beefed up differential covers to put on the 30 and 35 to strengthen them; should I invest in some of those?
Or, should I consider a Dana 44 front and rear from a junkyard? What about the Ford 8.8s from the Explorers? I am limited financially as most of us are. Any help is greatly appreciated!
From what you say you do with your Jeep, and with only running 33 inch tires, the stock axles will work fine for you. If you run across a cheap Ford 8.8 out of a 96 or newer explorer they have rear disc brakes, you do need to have spring and shock mounts welded on, I would check your area for prices to have this done before you do so, I would also check your Jeeps gear ratio, if it's not the same as the 8.8 you will have to change gears to match or upgrade both, if you do upgrade and plan on keeping the 33s I would suggest 4.56 gears. While your in there a rear locker wouldn't hurt, but if you don't find yourself needing the extra help and don't plan to get into anything meaner then don't waste the money.
your dana 30 is a pretty stout little axle and will be fine with 33's. I have pretty much the same setup as you. As for the dana 35 they are a dime a dozen. It could go anytime you might be offroading or pulling out of the driveway. Or you may never have any problems with it all
as the weaknesses of the D35 go.. the entire assembly is a combination of disaster.. Everything but the case cracks from axle shafts to spideys.
As the D30, I've seen 2 cases of the spider gears cracking because of forcing it in reverse. And from memory mudweiser had his front tire fly off on the highway.. (he has like 38" swampers though)
Don't put money in a D-35.
Chromoly shafts in the D-30 are reccommended if you go bigger than 33s, a locker/shaft kit would be nice, even sticking with 33s.
With a Chromoly D-30 and stock 8.8, 37s would be asking for trouble.
This Jeep has been running a S35 for 3 years on 36 or 35 " tires without failure. Everyone will tell you to replace the 35. It can be made sturdy for up to 35's easily.
Don't put money in a D-35.
Chromoly shafts in the D-30 are reccommended if you go bigger than 33s, a locker/shaft kit would be nice, even sticking with 33s.
With a Chromoly D-30 and stock 8.8, 37s would be asking for trouble.
and I was thinking that a friend of mine was asking for trouble putting 37's on the stock D30 axle shafts
but he hasnt had a problem yet
as long as he keeps out of the gas pedal and crawls everything
As mentioned above, the D30 front is a good stock axle, and I wouldn't worry about it with only 33's, especially if not locked. The guy I used to compete with went to the SuperCrawl in Moab about 5 years ago with a D30 front and Detroit locker on 36" SX's and didn't break anything... So they will hold up to some abuse.
The D35 rears are just a ticking timebomb of breakage. On my YJ, I ran 33's on the D35 for about 8 months with no locker, and both shafts bent. I have seen Axleshafts break on the trail in weird spots where you wouldn't guess any breakage was possible. I have seen Ring and pinions shear all the gears off driving through mud puddles (less than 3" deep) in parking lots (THAT was funny to see... shoulda seen the look on his face!:rofl::rofl.
So if you are running the D35 rear with larger tires (33"+), start saving for a new rear axle now, and replace it when it fails, or just save until you have the coin, and get a replacement in there ASAP.
it depends on how you drive, imo. If you accelerate fast on road and you do the same offroad then the D30's and D35's aer not going to last you. but if you drive normally (the occasional hard acceleration is ok) and go slow when rock crawling then you should be fine. i've seen a lot of people who compensate for there lack of driving/off roading skills with bigger better equipment. when off roading its all about choosing a good line and going at it correctly. You should be fine with the axles you have. just use common sense, if you have 12" of ground clearence under your differential, then you wont clear the rock that is 16" tall, choose a different line. if the water is 5 feet deep and your intake is 3 feet high you will lose, dont go through it. like i said before it comes down to the type of driver you are and the common sense you use.
Buy some spare D35 shafts and wheel it until you start breaking. Most likely it will be a shaft when something does go. If breaking shafts is a reoccurring problem then swap axles. A few spare shafts is dirt cheap and really no big deal though. You probably wont have an issue with the D30. Hell, seeing as how you play in sand and mud, you probably wont have a problem because you wont really be seeing much traction any way. If you stay open front and rear, then you'll be even better off.
Some people have great luck with their 35 and some don't. It took backwards air time down a hill in 2nd gear with the throttle pinned and landing on a rock to break a shaft. I was more afraid of the possible roll over due to the crazy uncontrollable air time more than the shaft. Some people break more easily. I say get some spares and have fun. Learn what breaks... then upgrade.
Ive been beating my dana 35/30 since i bought the jeep 4 years ago. so far so good.
I think the key is keeping the dana 35 open, and having an auto helps. also when my jeep starts hopping trying to climb something i STOP. Ive done several high speed trips through the desert many rock trail trails that require bigger then stock everything, mud pits and more. my jeep been jumped, sunk,and crashed into.
that said im still waiting for the dana 35 to blow up. on my long trips i carry spare shafts.
Ditto on all points. I've had alot of fun wheelin' my open diff D35 in two seperate TJ's...ya just have to be aware of the axles limitations. I'm saving my $$$ for a D44 but will run my D35 until it breaks or I can get the D44 replacement.
There's alot of bad press about the D35 especially from guys that run really wild, body damage, sick trails and they are right...the D35 has a limited life span there. I love to watch those guys but I ain't gonna get crazy like that. Kinda like watchin' pro football...fun to watch but there ain't no way in hell I'm gonna do it.
Know and respect the limitations of you and your rig.
Yep...known people to run the S35 and wheel it hard for years with no complaints or regrets...just sayin'...and NO...I'm not sayin' the S35 and the D44 are equals for those folks that wanna poke me in the eye over it.
Well the 35, even after the super kit, will still have the smaller and weaker ring and pinion and housing. Id skip dumping money into it all together and get a 44 if you can. Granted its not in the cards for some but if you can then do it. Sure, you can probably run 35's on that kit but the feeling of knowing you have that extra strength in the 44 is nice. The 30 is plenty strong for most stuff. Especially after upgraded shafts/u-joints. If you come accross a hp 30 then you could gain some strength with that direct swap too. The ring and pinion are stronger due to the reverse cut of the gears. Im gonna be running 36's on my locked cromoly hp 30 and I think it will hold just fine.
I've blown up 3 lockers in my 30. But the 35 still keep plugging along.
Theres a dude on Pirate who put his Jeep on its side. Then righted it by driving in reverse. He broke a 30 spline Super shaft, BUT THE R&P DIDN"T FAIL
Would you like a link?
Just want to add. You may not like my opinion of the S35. But, experience has shown there are many over blown claims of weakness on the internet about it.
I appreciate all the help I can get! I am just somewhat tied for cash, and wondering what to do as I want to step it up a bit with my off roading. Still though, I will primarily be in mud and sand. I just don't want to have to look over and see my wheels rolling past me!! How hard is it to find a Dana 44 in a junk yard and bolt it all up?
Gotta toss my hat in on the S35 supporters. Ran one with an ARB and 35's for some time with zero breaks. Only prob I ever had was snapping the air line to the ARB once...
35's on S35 = unk:
Oh and that is WITH a 90:1 crawl ratio and the I6 driving it (ie. significant torque)
I know you will never get everyone to agree on the strength of the Dana 35 axle, but I think we can all agree that a stock Dana 35 should never be run with anything more than 35s, I know a lot of people will say never more than 33s and I say go for it with 35s and expect an eventual brake and expect to replace it with a 44 or a 8.8 when that happens, a locker and a new set of gears wouldn't be a bad call either. Have fun, beat on it until you break it, then upgrade it.
I didnt say anything about them on the street? Did I? Im agreeing with you here. A S35 is fine. If my current TJ didnt already have a 44 I probably wouldnt have put one in myself for some time. I wheeld a D35 on my ZJ AND my TJ for a long time with relatively few problems.
How is it BS that when it comes to R&P's more material is stronger? If you look at a standard cut D35 and D44 set of gears, the 44 is thicker. So your telling me less material makes a stronger part? Excuse me for questioning you but Im not sure I see the logic there. Regardless of any of that, R&P's are rarely the part that gets busted up while wheeling anyway, in both 35's and 44's. So again I say, 35's are fine for moderate wheeling and even extreme wheeling if you build it right and its not under some full size truck or somethin that weighs a ton.
I wasnt aware a c-clip eliminator had been released for the 35's. I knew they had been out for some time for the 8.8 though. I was gonna mention that but like I said, I didnt know if it was out yet. Still, thats extra money that needs to be spent to make it like a 44. After all these upgrades you are just building a 35 to be like a 44, so why not just buy a 44?
Geez man, what the hell where you doing to brake an OX 3 times!? At that point it almost sounds like a defective unit or driver error but I doubt it was the later from talking to you on here.
Im not trying to start beef but Id appreciate it if youd not insinuate that I dont know anything about axles. It is somewhat insulting.
I'd build the 35 over the 44 for use with 35's and smaller tires for the extra clearance. Only if I didn't need the lower gears.
The mass of the ring gear doesn't make it stronger. The size and contact patch of the teeth do.
The 44 does have better weld attachment of the tubes to the center casting.
I'm not arguing I'm presenting a valid point. All of my wheeling is designed around using and maximizing 35" tires. If I can get an advantage over you with .5" of clearance, then it was worth the effort.
The OX wasn't a defective unit. It's a fact of using LP30's with 35's and doing 3rd gear front digs.
Just a personal opinion...but I think given the kind of wheeling you're talking about, the D35 should be GTG. In this case, I kinda think the AT works in your favor as the torque converter takes some of the jarring out of the drive train. I think it's jarring, combined with flex in the tubes that ultimately allows the spline shaft to break off inside the rear end housing. I'm nothing but a backyard mechanic...though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express ONCE.
What do you guys think...you know what they say about opinions...
Alright, my appoligies. I suppose I felt attacked and I was just reading into it the wrong way.
I agree, for 35" tires and smaller there is no reason to ever buy a 44. But personally I know I will be going to 37" tires eventually while staying as low as possible and I deff. dont trust a D35 to hard wheeling on a tire that size. So if we are going to compare strength to what tire size you should run your absolutley correct. For tires up to 35" a D35 can be built to handle that duty with no problems. But much bigger and I think a 44 is a seriously wise decision. Technically, the greater mass of the ring gear does make it stronger by itself I have never found any stats on the contact patch of the teeth on the R&P sets on those axles so I cant say the 44 has greater contact patch on the teeth. Assuming is not something I like to do but Id venture to guess the increased size of the gears may also mean it has increased contact patch on the teeth but cant say for sure. Do you know? Id honestly like to look into finding that out. But the bigger gears also makes the teeth thicker which means even if they had the exact same contact patch, the thicker teeth would theoretically hold up better.
And I see where your comming from on the busted locker. A front dig can put a ton of strain on the internals as you know all too well.
So are you running an atlas tcase then? Or did you twin stick a D300 or some other case to get FWD?
The larger dia ring gear also has a longer lever arm against the axle. This decreases the required torque for the same tire size. Or allows a bigger tire for the same torque.
I'll have to get a 44 R&P and measure the teeth. I know they're longer, but don't know the thickness difference. The mass of the ring gear between the mounting surface and the root of the teeth is the part that's irrelevant.
A good cover will help with D35 housing deflection, but there's a problem with your wanting to use Alloy products. No one can get them and for all intents and purposes Alloy USA will probably no longer exist. Plus I haven't read the whole thread, but if you are going with 30 spline shafts in the 35 then you are going to have to put an ARB or a Detroit in and with setting up of the gears unless you are going to do this yourself then you aren't going to stay under the 1200 dollar mark. Shafts are going to be 200 or so, locker Arb (700) or Detroit (450) then gear setup on the new carrier will probably be another 200 or so, and then 150 for the covers you are speaking of.
In my opinion one of the best products on the market that will help save a 35 is the Superior truss setup that they make for it. It's going to do the best job of keeping the housing from twisting under loads.
Monday I don't care what you say about that 35 my friend I have personally seen way more 35 cases that have cracked/wasted gears because of housing deflection than not. I don't care if someone on Pirate did something with a D35 or not. You even go over there in the non-hardcore section and mention your 35 and you aren't going to get good results from that venture.
With all of that being said. If someone was wanting to run 33's for a good long time with light duty wheeling then you have a very good chance of having no problems with the axle. You just have to set your expectations for what you are going to use your equipment for. I'm never down for anyone spending unecessary money on something.
hate me all you want. I'm just reporting what I've found. I've had this same debate on PBB and now we don't discuss it. Kinda falls with religion and politics.
On a stock 35; housing or better carrier deflection is an issue that takes out gears. Replace all the innards with a full case locker and good shafts and see what happens.
For the OP. I'd look into Superiors 27 spline c-clip eliminator kit.
I think I have about decided to stay with the 33's and the Dana 35, but add the Alloy USA brand 30 spline axle upgrade kit for $215, and maybe add a good cover like the ARB Competition, or the Rancho to help with flex.
That will keep me under the 35 to 37 inch tire limit on the Dana 35, and will keep my spending way below $1200 or so. Hey, if I break it, I can upgrade then like you guys suggested!
A good cover will help with D35 housing deflection, but there's a problem with your wanting to use Alloy products. No one can get them and for all intents and purposes Alloy USA will probably no longer exist. Plus I haven't read the whole thread, but if you are going with 30 spline shafts in the 35 then you are going to have to put an ARB or a Detroit in and with setting up of the gears unless you are going to do this yourself then you aren't going to stay under the 1200 dollar mark. Shafts are going to be 200 or so, locker Arb (700) or Detroit (450) then gear setup on the new carrier will probably be another 200 or so, and then 150 for the covers you are speaking of.
In my opinion one of the best products on the market that will help save a 35 is the Superior truss setup that they make for it. It's going to do the best job of keeping the housing from twisting under loads.
Monday I don't care what you say about that 35 my friend I have personally seen way more 35 cases that have cracked/wasted gears because of housing deflection than not. I don't care if someone on Pirate did something with a D35 or not. You even go over there in the non-hardcore section and mention your 35 and you aren't going to get good results from that venture.
With all of that being said. If someone was wanting to run 33's for a good long time with light duty wheeling then you have a very good chance of having no problems with the axle. You just have to set your expectations for what you are going to use your equipment for. I'm never down for anyone spending unecessary money on something.
Failry interesting thread. I knew the debate regarding the stock D30/D35 was heated, but... In the end I think that when you decide to build your Jeep you need to consider what you plan on using it for. If all you plan on doing is riding up a lazy trail why spend all the money.
I think for 35's a truss, alloy shafts, and a full case locker will go a long way, but the amount of money goes way up there. I personally cant see spending that much money on a D35, especially if you even think about going to a bigger tire later on is possible.
You can only take your D35 so far. Some people need more some don't. He may find that after all the bling up grades, hes just moved the weak point to the R&P and wasted money on a turd. Who knows. Its all in how hes driving it and what hes wheeling on.
This is why I say get spare stock shafts and have fun. If breaking shafts is a problem, then its no big deal. You have spares. Step up to alloys if its happening really often, but alloys are only 15-30% stronger. Slap a truss on it. If breakage persists still, then don't waste too much money on it. You can find front and rear 44's for really cheap. Hell, you can find people giving away 14b's and 60 rears and you don't see them sell for much more than $100 at the most for a rear. Front 60's are a ton though.
What it comes down to is how much money you want to spend. A 44 or 8.8 swap and a HP30 isn't too bad at all as far as modifying things goes and not too horribly hard on your wallet. Its all up to your breakage and your thresh hold for wasting money I guess.
For me what it came down to was safety. I almost died the last time my D35 broke. I was on a mountain side and the only thing that stopped me from rolling off the side was luck and a tree. Its a humbling experience (not the first time for me) that changes your views quite a bit. I have a family now and the investment into 60's could prevent something similar in the future. It took to small bucks for my D35 to let loose, I was amazed. I want to feel safe and I want to feel comfortable taking my family out with me.
So every one has their own reasons for upgrading or swapping. Theres no need for a heated debate. Some where out there is a chart comparing shaft strength, which I thought was fairly interesting.
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